Law Rules—Grace Lives

[justbyfaith]

The Law only charges, condemns, but not resolves man's sin nature, only forgiveness granted for believers in God in the OT (Jhn 14:1); and manifests this not only to those who were under it (Jews) but also to the Gentiles who were not under it. Guilt by the knowledge of showing where we're wrong (Jhn 15:22, 24). "For by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom 3:20), which makes all guilty, because its knowledge is available to all to seek understand it.

edited post #17 (Law Rules—Grace Lives)

 

[justbyfaith]

The Law only charges, condemns, but not resolves man's sin nature, only forgiveness granted for believers in God in the OT (Jhn 14:1); and manifests this not only to those who were under it (Jews) but also to the Gentiles who were not under it. Guilt by the knowledge of showing where we're wrong (Jhn 15:22, 24). "For by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom 3:20), which makes all guilty, because its knowledge is available to all to seek understand it.

Someone might think that being a Gentile and therefore not under the law, that the law does not apply to them as that which defines sin to us. But I think that you agree here that it does apply to them.

The law shows Gentiles that they are sinners just as much as it shows Jews that they are sinners.

I think it is misleading therefore to say that Gentiles are not under the law; because it does apply to Gentiles as that which defines them as "sinners in the hands of an angry God."

 

[Brakelite]

Does anyone other than myself find it curious that we have so many discussions over the years as to the total inefficacy or impotence of the law to save anyone, a dictum with which none disagree, and a concept that none suggests as a valid means by which to again salvation? Yet here we are again, discussing the same topic in a manner that suggests there are Christians everywhere advocating obedience to the law as a vehicle by which they are justified. When considering this remarkable situation, I can only conclude that the constant flow of objections to the law does not seem from any antipathy against the mistaken concept of law keeping as as means to justification, but antipathy against the law itself.
Now I find that curious in itself. Because the gospel is revealed in the heart of the law for those willing to look deeply enough. The gospel of salvation by grace alone through faith cannot be separated from the law, since both are inexorably linked. And the dispensationalist concept that the Israel was saved through obedience to the law adds a further dimension of confusion because that is a completely unbiblical and baseless theory... Again I suspect stemming from antipathy against the law itself.

sinners in the hands of an angry God."

And this doesn't help either. Portraying God as angry... Stern... Judgemental... Constantly on the look out for people to punish and cast condemnation upon is completely misleading and a serious misrepresentation of the character of God.

 

[justbyfaith]

I think it is misleading therefore to say that Gentiles are not under the law; because it does apply to Gentiles as that which defines them as "sinners in the hands of an angry God."

And this doesn't help either. Portraying God as angry... Stern... Judgemental... Constantly on the look out for people to punish and cast condemnation upon is completely misleading and a serious misrepresentation of the character of God.

I believe it was Jonathan Edwards who gave a Sermon on the very subject of "sinners in the hands of an angry God;" from which came the first great awakening in America's history. Therefore it cannot be such a bad thing.

God is in fact angry with sin and sinners.

Psa 5:5, The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psa 5:6, Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Psa 7:11, God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

The following verses were the basis for his sermon:

Deu 32:35, To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

Psa 37:1, [[A Psalm of David.]] Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
Psa 37:2, For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.

Psa 37:38, But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.

Psa 73:16, When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me;
Psa 73:17, Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.
Psa 73:18, Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.
Psa 73:19, How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors.
Psa 73:20, As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.

 

[justbyfaith]

Hi and appreciate your reply! It's true that this is not the direct quote but is a briefed quote of the passage, and I believe the writer was assuming the reader knew the passage and merely wrote it in short-thought. Though for the sake of avoiding a misunderstanding, I think it may have been better to just quote to entire passage, as you've indicated.

God bless!

It can indeed be misleading to think that, "as is the earthy, so are the heavenly"--to think that if I am heavenly I am as the earthy; i.e. that even those identified as saints are in all reality sinners.

But saints are saints, not sinners. "As is the earthy, so is the earthy; and as is the heavenly, so are the heavenly."

To shorten the verse can indeed allow for miscommunication.

And it seems that the miscommunication that was leveled against us is widely accepted today.

However, 1 John 3:9, whether it is hyperbole or a statement made by the apostle with great plainness of speech, would tell us that those who are born of God are no longer sinners. They cannot sin because they are born of God.

I have made commentary on this verse in other places and so will not endeavor to do so here unless some contention arises because of the boldness of my statements.

 

[Brakelite]

I believe it was Jonathan Edwards who gave a Sermon on the very subject of "sinners in the hands of an angry God;" from which came the first great awakening in America's history. Therefore it cannot be such a bad thing.

God is in fact angry with sin and sinners.

Psa 5:5, The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psa 5:6, Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Psa 7:11, God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

The following verses were the basis for his sermon:

Deu 32:35, To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

Psa 37:1, [[A Psalm of David.]] Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
Psa 37:2, For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.

Psa 37:38, But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.

Psa 73:16, When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me;
Psa 73:17, Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.
Psa 73:18, Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.
Psa 73:19, How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors.
Psa 73:20, As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.

So a temporary revival was created on the back of a sermon or series of sermons depicting God as angry, vengeful, vindictive, searching for sinners to punish, and characterising God as stern and unapproachable... Similar to the God portrayed throughout the dark ages as a God who delights in casting people into eternal torment. Imagine the revival that would eventuate from the world discovering that God loves them to bits through Christians who love them to bits? Through a gospel that tells of a Savior Who would rather be dead than live without them? Of a Creator who wants nothing more than to spend time with His created beings? Who created them in order to share His goodness and generosity with them, and Whose thoughts toward them are not evil, but good?

 

[mjrhealth]

I would point out what it says in Romans 3:19-20.

Rom 3:19, Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

All the world becomes guilty before God because of being under the law; not just the Jewish people.

Also, if Gentiles are not under the law, how do they obtain the knowledge of sin?

As I said its all the Spirit since Christ,

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

 

[justbyfaith]

As I said its all the Spirit since Christ,

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Indeed; and the Spirit's work is to convict of sin. How does He do so?

Rom 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Gal 3:23, But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24, Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

This is what the Spirit says: "I convict people of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment, utilizing my law. All of you are under the law until that day comes that you surrender to Christ and make Him your Lord; and then you are no longer under a schoolmaster. As Gentiles who have not yet been born again, you are indeed under the law. Only those who are in Christ are not under the law; and this is true of Jew and Gentile. Therefore the delineation is between saved and unsaved, rather than between Jew and Gentile. By my law is the knowledge of sin; and therefore if the Gentile were not under the law, he would have no knowledge of sin. Therefore my law declares that both Jew and Gentile alike are sinners. Jew and Gentile alike are therefore subject to my moral law as it declares to them their sin and gives them the knowledge that they are sinners in need of a Saviour. If you do not have faith then you are kept under the law, shut up to the faith that will be revealed in you when you come to Christ. Then you will no longer be under a schoolmaster."

 

[justbyfaith]

Imagine the revival that would eventuate from the world discovering that God loves them to bits through Christians who love them to bits? Through a gospel that tells of a Savior Who would rather be dead than live without them? Of a Creator who wants nothing more than to spend time with His created beings? Who created them in order to share His goodness and generosity with them, and Whose thoughts toward them are not evil, but good?

Such a doctrine may in fact produce lacksadaisical Christianity without wisdom. The Christians that are produced would have no wisdom.

Following is most of what I found in a word search on the word fear, at blue letter bible:

Pro 1:7, The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Pro 9:10, The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Pro 15:33, The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility.

Isa 33:6, And wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times, and strength of salvation: the fear of the LORD is his treasure.

Job 28:28, And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

Psa 111:10, The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Pro 8:13, The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
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Lev 19:14, Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.

Lev 19:32, Thou shalt rise up before the hoary head, and honour the face of the old man, and fear thy God: I am the LORD.

Lev 25:17, Ye shall not therefore oppress one another; but thou shalt fear thy God: for I am the LORD your God.

Lev 25:36, Take thou no usury of him, or increase: but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee.

Lev 25:43, Thou shalt not rule over him with rigour; but shalt fear thy God.

Deu 4:10, Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.

Deu 5:29, O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Deu 6:2, That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.

Deu 6:13, Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.

Deu 6:24, And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.

Deu 8:6, Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.

Deu 10:12, And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

Deu 10:20, Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name.

Deu 13:4, Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

Deu 13:11, And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

Deu 14:23, And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.

Deu 17:13, And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously.

Deu 17:19, And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:

Deu 19:20, And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.

Deu 31:12, Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:

Deu 31:13, And that their children, which have not known any thing, may hear, and learn to fear the LORD your God, as long as ye live in the land whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jos 4:24, That all the people of the earth might know the hand of the LORD, that it is mighty: that ye might fear the LORD your God for ever.

Jos 24:14, Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.

1Sa 12:14, If ye will fear the LORD, and serve him, and obey his voice, and not rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then shall both ye and also the king that reigneth over you continue following the LORD your God:

1Sa 12:24, Only fear the LORD, and serve him in truth with all your heart: for consider how great things he hath done for you.

2Sa 23:3, The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.

2Ki 17:34, Unto this day they do after the former manners: they fear not the LORD, neither do they after their statutes, or after their ordinances, or after the law and commandment which the LORD commanded the children of Jacob, whom he named Israel;

2Ki 17:39, But the LORD your God ye shall fear; and he shall deliver you out of the hand of all your enemies.

1Ch 16:30, Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.

2Ch 19:7, Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.

2Ch 19:9, And he charged them, saying, Thus shall ye do in the fear of the LORD, faithfully, and with a perfect heart.

Psa 2:11, Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

Psa 5:7, But as for me, I will come into thy house in the multitude of thy mercy: and in thy fear will I worship toward thy holy temple.

Psa 9:20, Put them in fear, O LORD: that the nations may know themselves to be but men. Selah.

Psa 14:5, There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

Psa 19:9, The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

Psa 25:14, The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.

Psa 31:19, Oh how great is thy goodness, which thou hast laid up for them that fear thee; which thou hast wrought for them that trust in thee before the sons of men!

Psa 33:8, Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.

Psa 33:18, Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;

Psa 34:7, The angel of the LORD encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.

Psa 34:9, O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him.

Psa 34:11, Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the LORD.

Psa 36:1, [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David the servant of the LORD.]] The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes.

Psa 40:3, And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.

Psa 55:19, God shall hear, and afflict them, even he that abideth of old. Selah. Because they have no changes, therefore they fear not God.

Psa 60:4, Thou hast given a banner to them that fear thee, that it may be displayed because of the truth. Selah.

Psa 61:5, For thou, O God, hast heard my vows: thou hast given me the heritage of those that fear thy name.

Psa 85:9, Surely his salvation is nigh them that fear him; that glory may dwell in our land.

Psa 86:11, Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name.

Psa 103:11, For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.

Psa 103:13, Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.

Psa 103:17, But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

Psa 115:13, He will bless them that fear the LORD, both small and great.

Psa 145:19, He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.

Psa 147:11, The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy.

 

[justbyfaith]

Pro 2:5, Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.

Pro 3:7, Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

Pro 10:27, The fear of the LORD prolongeth days: but the years of the wicked shall be shortened.

Pro 14:26, In the fear of the LORD is strong confidence: and his children shall have a place of refuge.

Pro 14:27, The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

Pro 15:16, Better is little with the fear of the LORD than great treasure and trouble therewith.

Pro 16:6, By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

Pro 19:23, The fear of the LORD tendeth to life: and he that hath it shall abide satisfied; he shall not be visited with evil.

Pro 23:17, Let not thine heart envy sinners: but be thou in the fear of the LORD all the day long.

Ecc 8:12, Though a sinner do evil an hundred times, and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him:

Ecc 12:13, Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Isa 29:23, But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.

Isa 33:6, And wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times, and strength of salvation: the fear of the LORD is his treasure.

Isa 59:19, So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

Isa 63:17, O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

Jer 2:19, Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.

Jer 5:24, Neither say they in their heart, Let us now fear the LORD our God, that giveth rain, both the former and the latter, in his season: he reserveth unto us the appointed weeks of the harvest.

Jer 32:39, And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
Jer 32:40, And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Dan 6:26, I make a decree, That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for he is the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion shall be even unto the end.

Hos 3:5, Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

Zep 3:7, I said, Surely thou wilt fear me, thou wilt receive instruction; so their dwelling should not be cut off, howsoever I punished them: but they rose early, and corrupted all their doings.

Mal 1:6, A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?

Mal 4:2, But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

 

[justbyfaith]

Mat 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luk 1:50, And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

Luk 5:26, And they were all amazed, and they glorified God, and were filled with fear, saying, We have seen strange things to day.

Luk 7:16, And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

Luk 8:37, Then the whole multitude of the country of the Gadarenes round about besought him to depart from them; for they were taken with great fear: and he went up into the ship, and returned back again.

Luk 12:5, But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Luk 21:26, Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Luk 23:40, But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

Act 2:43, And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

Act 5:5, And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

Act 5:11, And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

Act 9:31, Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

Act 19:17, And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.

Rom 3:18, There is no fear of God before their eyes.

: (see context)

Rom 11:20, Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

2Co 7:1, Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

2Co 7:11, For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

Eph 5:21, Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Heb 11:7, By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Heb 12:21, And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)

1Pe 1:17, And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

1Pe 2:17, Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

Jde 1:12, These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Rev 14:7, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Rev 15:4, Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Rev 19:5, And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
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Phl 2:12, Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Jer 48:43, Fear, and the pit, and the snare, shall be upon thee, O inhabitant of Moab, saith the LORD.

Isa 8:13, Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.

Pro 1:26, I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

The latter four verses show clearly that the fear of the LORD does not refer only to mere reverence but is referring to actual fear; and there are a few verses also along the way that have shown this.

Consider:

2Co 5:11, Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

 

[Brakelite]

@justbyfaith

So, in order to establish a relationship with man that is not lackadaisical and unwise, you think we should be afraid of Him. Sorry, no, I'm not sorry, because you need to hear this. That makes no sense. Give me one example from your own life where a relationship was established on the premise of one party being afraid of the other. You do not understand Who God is. But keep asking Him, don't be afraid to ask, and He will reveal Himself to you.

 

[justbyfaith]

@justbyfaith

So, in order to establish a relationship with man that is not lackadaisical and unwise, you think we should be afraid of Him. Sorry, no, I'm not sorry, because you need to hear this. That makes no sense. Give me one example from your own life where a relationship was established on the premise of one party being afraid of the other. You do not understand Who God is. But keep asking Him, don't be afraid to ask, and He will reveal Himself to you.

For the first year of my Christian walk, I was set free from the lust of the eyes and the lust of the flesh because of the fear of God; because Matthew 5:29-30 instilled such a fear in me.

I suggest that instead of just responding out of hand, that you look at all of the scriptures that I have presented.

I put forth a lot of effort to bring them to you. The least you can do is read all of them. :)

 

[justbyfaith]

Sorry, no, I'm not sorry, because you need to hear this. That makes no sense.

1Co 1:18, For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19, For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20, Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21, For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Co 1:22, For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23, But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24, But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25, Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 1:26, For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27, But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28, And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29, That no flesh should glory in his presence.

 

[justbyfaith]

You do not understand Who God is.

I have a very deep personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ His Son.

 

[mjrhealth]

Indeed; and the Spirit's work is to convict of sin. How does He do so?

Sin do you even know what it is, you where the law ended.

Luk 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Which is it the old or the new. We where never under teh law, will never be under teh law it was never ours, Grace us all that was given to usgentiles, yet rejected by so many.

 

[Brakelite]

I suggest that instead of just responding out of hand, that you look at all of the scriptures that I have presented.

Of what use would it be to me to read all those scriptures if the person quoting them is of the mindset that they present an accurate characterisation of God? If you are looking at all those to prove that God throughout history had presented Himself as fearsome and one we ought be afraid to approach, then I'm not interested. If however you are willing to look at them through the lens of other scriptures depicting God's working with mankind to be from a completely different paradigm... One of love, faithfulness, grace, mercy and kindness, then I am willing to discuss this further.
Allow me to offer you a clue as to why people are afraid of God. You will find it in Genesis 3:9,10. The question I have for you is why do you blame God for your fear?

 

[Netchaplain]

Someone might think that being a Gentile and therefore not under the law, that the law does not apply to them as that which defines sin to us. But I think that you agree here that it does apply to them.

The law shows Gentiles that they are sinners just as much as it shows Jews that they are sinners.

I think it is misleading therefore to say that Gentiles are not under the law; because it does apply to Gentiles as that which defines them as "sinners in the hands of an angry God."

God had a purpose for using only the Jewish nation to begin revealing Himself to mankind, then to the rest of the world. Of course concerning the guilt of being a sinner, all are on like footing and require redemption, for all are under "the law of sin" (Gal 3:22); which states that
"the soul that sinneth, it shall die (Eze 18:4, 20),and had its beginning with the first man (Gen 2:17).

 

[Prayer Warrior]

netchaplin your Wm Kelly really sucks incase you don't know. to read that posting is 5 to 10 minutes I can't get back. when Paul says it plain as day here:

Rom 3:27　 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.　
Rom 3:28　 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.　
Rom 3:29　 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:　
Rom 3:30　 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.　
Rom 3:31　 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.　

DPMartin, I don't "know" you, but I would appreciate more respectful language on this forum. I have no problem with disagreeing with what at person says, but we need to be respectful.