Using corporal punishment to discipline kids
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God COMMANDED, in His law, that rebellious sons be stoned to death.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 ESV
“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
(This was posted just for all you Mullet Heads who swear the Bible is inerrant, and that they follow every word in it.)
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 ESV
“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
(This was posted just for all you Mullet Heads who swear the Bible is inerrant, and that they follow every word in it.)
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Interestingly enough, there is no known case where a son was put to death that way.
Rebellious Son
It appears that this law was intended to limit the powers of the pater familias: the head of the household could no longer punish the defiant son himself, according to his own whim, but had to bring him before the elders (i.e., judges) for punishment. In earlier laws (eg., Hammurapi Code, nos. 168, 169) only the father had to be defied; in biblical law it must be both father and mother, and the father cannot act without the mother's concurrence. If either was dead (Sif. Deut. 219) or refused to join in the prosecution, the son could not be indicted (Sanh. 8:4), but it was not necessary that father and mother should be validly married to each other (Sanh. 71a).
There is no record of a rebellious son ever having been executed, except for a dictum of R. Jonathan stating that he had once seen such a one and sat on his grave (Sanh. 71a). However, it is an old and probably valid tradition that there never had been, nor ever will be, a rebellious son, and that the law had been pronounced for educational and deterrent purposes only, so that parents be rewarded for bringing their children up properly (ibid.; Tosef. Sanh. 11:6).
Interpreting every single word of the biblical text restrictively, the talmudic jurists reduced the practicability of this law to nil. The "son" must be old enough to bear criminal responsibility, that is 13 years of age (see *Penal Law), but must still be a "son" and not a man: as soon as a beard grows ("by which is meant the pubic hair, not that of the face, for the sages spoke euphemistically") he is no longer a "son" but a man (Sanh. 8:1). The period during which he may thus be indicted as a "son" is three months only (Sanh. 69a; Yad, Mamrim 7:6), or, according to another version, not more than six months (TJ, Sanh. 8:1). The term "son" excludes a daughter (Sanh. 8:1; Sif. Deut. 218), though daughters are no less apt to be rebellious (Sanh. 69b–70a).
Why would you go to The Jewish Virtual Library to explain the Christian Bible?
And, just wondering...….. Why did Rabbi Jonathan say he had seen such an execution.... if none ever occured?
And, just wondering...….. Why did Rabbi Jonathan say he had seen such an execution.... if none ever occured?
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Hebrews 8:13
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Christians are not under the Law of Moses!
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Various traditions are presented in the Talmud. You need to know which ones aren't worth much. The New Testament quotes the Talmud at times. I often find the Jewish sources helpful. For example, I wouldn't know if Keturah was Abraham's wife (Genesis 25:1 ) or his concubine (1 Chronicles 1:32) without the help of Jewish sources.
Beats me why R. Jonathan would say that in a debate with other rabbis who knew nothing about it.
You think a Christian wrote Deuteromy?
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I can only speak from my own prospective ...I was disciplined, never felt it was over the top or wrong. I disciplined my four children, but appropriately. If my children were doing something wrong, that could cause the harm, I use to tap them on the hand as they may not have understood the danger, but would have understood the slight pain they had on their hand ( and not want it again ).
This would happen if a raised voice was not enough. My middle son , well with him you just Had to raise your voice....
With my oldest smacking didn’t really work , as he was my first it was all a learning curve....... but I didn’t see anything wrong with that form of discipline.
I grew up in a era when you had corporal punishment at school.
We had the cane, or the slipper .....thankfully I didn’t experience either, but my ex husband did.
We had a headmaster who we respected , and he never abused the discipline and would only give it if the person had really crossed a line and been warned, but carried on. ( this is where I agree with it.....I do not agree with the abuse of smacking to the point where it is for no reason and just because someone is angry )
The slipper, that was administered by the deputy head, often across the backside .......as I think about this now a red flag goes up in my mind....was that punishment or something else ( something sexual )
I think spanking ( we tend to say smacking in the UK ) has its place , spare the rod, spare the child.......
So I think motive and reason behind the smack is where the sin, no sin comes in.
Rita
Thanks @Rita. Same here, i was raised with disciple.
There are quite a few OT passages that endorse it but il only pull them out if there is a strong disagreement
I was a cheeky boy, I remember, evil at times. I remember crying when i'd get disciplined but looking back now i wouldn't of had it any other way
Todays generations lacks respect. We've all seen that spoilt child at the supermarket crying and making a scene over candy
Neither me or my sis would of dared done that. We'd ask and if they said no that was it, we knew not to sook about it
If I got mum angry she would discipline me then when dad got home and found out I disrespected mum he would discipline me as well... LoL
Fear is healthy. I fear God which helps me keep in line, the same with the law and prison.
I remember when they banned parents from discipline their kids in public. I thought it was wrong at first but I understand why now
Parents were causing serious injury to kids by using incorrect techniques like punches and kicks to the body causing internal damage to organs
Parents need to know the safe methods of disciplining.
The cain or thin branch is perfect, it stings and will leave marks but has no chance of causing internal damage no matter how hard u swing it
The old ear pull is safe and effective. Its impossible to rip an ear off a kid, believe me I know
Its a punishment that should be used rarely, maybe 1 to 3 times in a year.
Ive read into alternative methods but im not convinced they would be effective.
Kids don't know where the boundaries are and there is only one way to really find out and that is to approach them.
Approaching and sometimes crossing the boundaries with adults and kids is how a child learns where they are.
Without boundaries a child's instinct is to keep pressing on to find it
I did receive corporal punishment myself as a child, but never excessively. My wife and I also similarly disciplined our two children and when we were caring for them, our grandchildren. If anyone spanking children is sinning it would be because of what is in their heart rather than because the physical thing alone.
When I was in school as late as the 7th grade our teacher would spank children with his own belt for misbehavior in class. There was opposition to him by a couple of parents and I circulated a petition to have people sign in his defense. It was unsuccessful and he was fired before the end of the school year [1955-1956]. I still believe they were wrong. To me it appeared to be a beginning of people overreacting at the expense of a good teacher. I can't imagine it was easy for him to get another job after that.
I remember when I started school in the 1st grade in 1948 [no kindergarten in that school then] the teacher told us what the rules of behavior in the classroom were. For talking without permission she would hit us on the back of the hand with a wooden ruler. I only received it once. Once we got the idea it was mostly a quiet well behaved group. For more serious problem children or where the teacher did not want to apply discipline themselves the child would be sent to the office of the principal of the school. He had a leather strap like what barbers would use to sharpen their razors. That would be applied to the posterior of an offending child. It was an uncommon thing for a child to be sent to the principal.
Maybe someone needs to come up with an invention that can inflict corporal punishment on the internet.
Post something inappropriate on social media? The moderators could give you an electrical shock from your cellphone! Third offense, your cellphone blows up.
Post something inappropriate on social media? The moderators could give you an electrical shock from your cellphone! Third offense, your cellphone blows up.
Ok, so u must of been a war time baby... My dad was born in 1948
Also im not sure if u made a post explaining your stage name on the other thread but "ama deus" in Portuguese means "love God"
Sabertooth
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Spanking has a Biblical basis [Proverbs 13:24], but I don't see it as a first-level response.
In my walk with God, I don't recall being spanked a lot, either. He usually just turns on a "light switch" or gives me foresight about the long term consequences of the choices laid before me.
- Some of my kids responded to correction before it came to that.
- It is less effective on gifteds & uninjured autistics.
- And it had no beneficial effect on my children with mental illnesses or vaccine-induced brain injury.
In my walk with God, I don't recall being spanked a lot, either. He usually just turns on a "light switch" or gives me foresight about the long term consequences of the choices laid before me.
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Sabertooth
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...or an electrical contact on your mouse button!
:
Great idea! Give moderators some real clout....or an electrical contact on your mouse button!
I wish someone would invent phones that explode. Either person could press a button and the phone on other end would explode. Can you imagine how polite people would be on the phone if they knew the other person could make their phones explode? Maybe your idea of an electrical shock would be enough. It would also help solve the problem of those annoying telemarketeers.
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Yep. I got spanked and we spanked our kids when called for. When? When blatant disobedience happens.
Some kids rarely if ever need it, because they are more compliant than others. For some, merely stating what they did wrong is sufficient.
Taking away privileges, sending to his room when he wants to be somewhere else, there's lots of methods.
bbyrd009
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It is also Latin with the same meaning. I chose it on purpose as my Confirmation name in the Catholic Church.
I was born in 1943.
Taken
Well-Known Member
I think it is neither right or wrong.
Children are all different.
Some are stubborn others are not.
No.
No.
No.
Never had the need.
Five daily rules:
(Eat, sleep, work, play, pray)
Rewards for work.
Rewards withheld.
Be smarter than your kids and they will being asking to do what you want them to do.
Oh I got hit all the time by my mum, never by my dad, but sent to my room for not eating his mash potato crap.
Due to my cunning 3 years elder brother and his tricks, he loved nothing better to get me into trouble and he would bashed me and stamp on me to stop me coming at him, until I was 10yo then he got worried and neve took me on again. but still loved to try and get me the blame, my mum would strike while the iron was hot, as she would say. My mum attacked him with a star picket once when he was 18yo.
My other brother is 10 years younger than me. my mum and dad had mellowed much with bringing him up.
My sister is the eldest was fine but would go along with big bro at times.
I think I got the cane nearly every day at one school and so many fights, it was living hell that place from the first day I went to that school. people were like monkeys and apes and full of mental cases. you had to be on guard at all times ready to go not just one but a mob of morons. then I and my elder bro went to Darwin and Katherine and some morons their as well but nothing so bad and then we went to the Gold Coast and Brisbane and no one would pick a fight with you their, people were nice. what a change !
I have never had to hit my Children ever, but I will say that you have to let them know early in life who is who, because they will test you. I believe if they know that you love them dearly and treat them with the respect they deserve and let them grow all is fine sailing. never be harsh with them ever but be firm in a way that will lead them as to lead them strength in themselves.
I remember being asked by my children when they were real young, who is the boss, no one was the boss ! I am your father and that's your mother, that's all they have to understand.
I would smack on the bum if my child tried to run across the road in a flash, as they may do at a young age going shopping and I did not give into the wants of getting them treats in the shops, you start that and it will never stop, if they expect nothing they will not ask.;)
I am all for being back the cane in schools, but not the way that it was dished up to me at all, but if one gets to far out of hand I am all for it.
I was even threatened by one teacher that he was going to take me out into the bush and bash me up, this was said in front of the class. I just thought maybe you will win and maybe you won't, but though to myself he will regret taking me on, and I only thought my dad would go off the rocker, if it was not for that I would of said come on then, lets see how you go. I had more fights than he had hot dinners. looking back I know that I would of wiped the floor with him. I was into Judo from 7yo.
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