How does God chasten us?

[markalan]

How does God chasten us?

Hebrews 12:6-11

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And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:​

​

For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.​

​

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?​

​

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.​

​

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?​

​

For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.​

​

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.​

​

Paul compares God's chastening to a father disciplining a son. A recent poll on this forum* showed about 2/3 say it is ok to use corporal punishment to discipline their children.

Does God sometimes use physical discipline to correct His children?

* Is it ok for parents to use corporal punishment to discipline their children?

 

[JimKnox]

How does God chasten us?

Hebrews 12:6-11

​

And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:​

​

For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.​

​

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?​

​

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.​

​

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?​

​

For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.​

​

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.​

​

Paul compares God's chastening to a father disciplining a son. A recent poll on this forum* showed about 2/3 say it is ok to use corporal punishment to discipline their children.

Does God sometimes use physical discipline to correct His children?

* Is it ok for parents to use corporal punishment to discipline their children?

Yes.

 

[Taken]

Is it ok for parents to use corporal punishment to discipline their children?

Yes.

Just as there is a “range in age and maturity” in what is called a “child”…
So also is there a “range in corporal punishment”.

Corporal punishment… has several intended goals…ie.
* get their attention
* a physical gesture /act
* pain
* discomfort
* consequence for unacceptable behavior

Age… when child knows what No means…
No yelling or name calling at or to child.
Directly face to face, Saying No ONLY Once.

Proceed…
* removing a child from a location
* Covering a child’s mouth to hush something they said
* swat on bottom
* Slap on hand
* moving their hands away
* finger flick on forehead

Repeat as necessary, calm and with No speaking.

Be patient, it works!
Give child hug, kisses, and an activity / chore suited to their age, and compliment.

NO… counting (1,2, 3!), scream, yell, threaten, call names, wildly hit, beat, send to room, argue, debate, QUIT…

Teens… put them on a leash…kinda!
Give them small, bit by bit liberty… and check on them (so they know), (Friends house, park, playing in basement, library, in their room, etc.) every 20-30 min.
(Never lie to them, or ask them to lie for you.)

Children will TRUST whom they Know IS caring and Trust-Worthy.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Bombastic]

Chastisement is different than wrath (G-d is slow to anger). Having said that, I say it's by internal conscience conviction or external oppression. It is impossible for Satan to indwell a truly regenerated believer; however, Satan can oppress believers, like in the case of Job. The conscience, likewise, can be softened by the heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:25-27), or it can become numb, like in the case of Pharaoh, and experience hardening. Likewise, the internal conscience, as mentioned in the beginning of chapters in Romans 2, speaks about the Gentiles and Jews; one is internal conviction and the other is external scripture. Of course, the natural conviction of the Gentile will justify or convict based upon the flesh whereas the Scriptures are alien in justification and external.
It is also interesting to note the true definition of predestination vs. foreordination. Predestination is always positive; that is, G-d elects some to salvation. And foreordination is always negative, that is, G-d passes over the reprobate. He doesn't elect some to hell but grants what the reprobate want, that is, after death to be judged (Hebrews 9:27) and to stand before Him without representation (propitiation and atonement).
In other words, at the cross, Satan believed he won; the reprobate believe they won. And they did; they'll get exactly what they want.
A special place has already been prepared for them (no justice or righteousness, only strife and wickedness; a life devoid of the blessing of G-d or a life blessed by His presence, etc.).
On another note, I always think it interesting when somebody that doesn't go to church says, "I believe in G-d." This reminds me of when I had my first dinner with a future son-in-law. I asked, "Do you believe in G-d?" He said, "Yes, I believe in G-d." I then asked, "What does that mean?" Even Satan believes G-d exists.

 

[Taken]

Chastisement is different than wrath (G-d is slow to anger). Having said that, I say it's by internal conscience conviction or external oppression. It is impossible for Satan to indwell a truly regenerated believer;

Agree.

however, Satan can oppress believers, like in the case of Job.

Agree.
Satan CAN oppress (Target and Trick) Believers.

Believers are ONE thing…(still subject to Satan’s cunning trickery)
Converted Believers are ANOTHER thing…(not subject to Satan’s cunning trickery)

Job lived in the ERA. Salvation / Conversion was not offered until Only AFTER Mortal Death.
God was WITH Job, But not yet IN Job.

The conscience, likewise, can be softened by the heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:25-27), or it can become numb, like in the case of Pharaoh, and experience hardening. Likewise, the internal conscience, as mentioned in the beginning of chapters in Romans 2, speaks about the Gentiles and Jews; one is internal conviction and the other is external scripture. Of course, the natural conviction of the Gentile will justify or convict based upon the flesh whereas the Scriptures are alien in justification and external.
It is also interesting to note the true definition of predestination vs. foreordination. Predestination is always positive; that is, G-d elects some to salvation. And foreordination is always negative, that is, G-d passes over the reprobate. He doesn't elect some to hell but grants what the reprobate want, that is, after death to be judged (Hebrews 9:27) and to stand before Him without representation (propitiation and atonement).
In other words, at the cross, Satan believed he won; the reprobate believe they won. And they did; they'll get exactly what they want.
A special place has already been prepared for them (no justice or righteousness, only strife and wickedness; a life devoid of the blessing of G-d or a life blessed by His presence, etc.).

Conscience…( in brief “the soul” AND “the body” / flesh AND “the spirit” / hearts truth…
Each have a part, in a mans conversion…

On another note, I always think it interesting when somebody that doesn't go to church says, "I believe in G-d."

I have a different perspective.
“I believe in God and Testify, I am converted.
I do not “GO” to any man-made church.
Rather, I believe I am a member of Christ Jesus’ Church, and hear, read, study, His word daily…
( For Every day the Lord hath made )
…and Fellowship with Anyone, Any time, Anyplace and Glorify God in parallel to such opportunities.
It’s a 24-7 Church, in Christ, no locked doors.
No dress code, no modern traditions, no time schedule, no weather, wars, opinions, work, politics, school, entertainment, etc. to prevent or excuse, attendance.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Bombastic]

Job lived in the ERA. Salvation / Conversion was not offered until Only AFTER Mortal Death.
God was WITH Job, But not yet IN Job.

I don't believe that.
The ordo salutis is the same from cover to cover.
For example, “I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth” (Job 19:25).
This is justification by faith alone. And regeneration precedes faith.
The theological depth dives deep into Supralapsarianism vs. Infralapsarianism.

 

[Taken]

I don't believe that.
The ordo salutis is the same from cover to cover.
For example, “I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth” (Job 19:25).
This is justification by faith alone. And regeneration precedes faith.
The theological depth dives deep into Supralapsarianism vs. Infralapsarianism.

I was not talking about “justification”.
Job was righteous, but not born again, (quickened) until his body mortally died.

A body MUST Die, BEFORE…
The spirit can be “Born Again” (ie quickened).

You live in an ERA, thus which After Jesus was sent to Earth, and offered the “new better Testament and covenant” to become made “bodily crucified With Jesus”, accounted bodily Dead, and thus Able to receive “your quickened ( born again Spirit ), before your Mortal Death.”

That did not Apply to ancient OT believing men.

1 Cor 15:
[36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Heb 7:
[22] By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Bombastic]

I was not talking about “justification”.
Job was righteous, but not born again, (quickened) until his body mortally died.

A body MUST Die, BEFORE…
The spirit can be “Born Again” (ie quickened).

You live in an ERA, thus which After Jesus was sent to Earth, and offered the “new better Testament and covenant” to become made “bodily crucified With Jesus”, accounted bodily Dead, and thus Able to receive “your quickened ( born again Spirit ), before your Mortal Death.”

That did not Apply to ancient OT believing men.

1 Cor 15:
[36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Heb 7:
[22] By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Glory to God,
Taken

Again, I disagree. That's impossible, unless you're a Pelagian (Roman Catholic) denying the sinful nature of Adam and all those born in Adam.
Jesus found the question of Nicodemus absurd, and likewise, I ask you, how can you teach without knowing this?
Ezekiel 36:26-27.
And your definition of regeneration is rejected. Regeneration is not only "quickening."

 

[Taken]

Again, I disagree. That's impossible, unless you're a Pelagian (Roman Catholic) denying the sinful nature of Adam and all those born in Adam.

No.
The sinful nature of man, including Adam, and every Human thereafter…is they are Born in sin …
From the Seed of a MAN.

A saved Soul…is a soul that is “restored”.
A quickened Spirit…is a Spirit “Reborn from Gods Seed”.
A natural Body…is a Body that HAS Committed Sin….and IF Forgiven for its Sin Against God ( which is having HAD unbelief in God )…then That body is Forgiven, and Resides in Jesus’ Risen Body…. Called “IN Christ”… until their own body is called up by, to the Lord…Rapture.

And your definition of regeneration is rejected. Regeneration is not only "quickening."

No effect on me…

I said, Converted… which includes the WHOLE of a man… body, soul, spirit… fully prepared…
For ANY moment (unknown to us) they are called up and Their glorified body manifested. (Revealed to be seen).


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Behold]

How does God chasten us?

Hebrews 12:6-11

​

And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:​

​

For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.​

​

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?​

​

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.​

​

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?​

​

For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.​

​

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.​

​

Paul compares God's chastening to a father disciplining a son. A recent poll on this forum* showed about 2/3 say it is ok to use corporal punishment to discipline their children.

Does God sometimes use physical discipline to correct His children?

* Is it ok for parents to use corporal punishment to discipline their children?

The first thing to know about our born again Relationship to God, is that God never charges sin to you ever again if you are born again.

Why not?

Because of 2 reasons..

1st.... The born again...are = "not under the law, but under Grace".......so, legally we can't be charged., as when "there is no law, there is no sin (Transgression)"..found.

Read 2 Corin 5:19 and Romans 4:8, in a KJV.........and BELIEVE IT.

2nd, God has already sent Jesus to the Cross to be our Sin Bearer and our ETERNAL Sacrifice, which resulted in JESUS dying for ALL our sin, so that we do not have to deal with God's Eternal Judgement.
The eternal judgement for our SIN has already been laid on Jesus.........so, its not coming for us.

Now, the next thing to know is that The Cross didnt end "sowing and reaping" that is a spiritual Law.
So, if you commit some grevious sin, then you have created a SEED that is planted in the Spiritual Realm, and its going to bring you a HARVEST of Consequences.....that is NOT you being Judged by God for that work of the flesh, as that carnal deed has already been paid for by the Blood of Jesus, 2000 yrs ago.
However, the spiritual law that is "sowing and reaping"....is going to find you, and you will have to deal with the consequence.
And can you pray that God would soften or free you from this once it lands on you, or repent and pray about it before if you're smart.
See, you would be foolish not to ask for help, if you have truly gone off the deep end into some grevious FLESH chasing behavior.

And remember,.........God knew you would do it, before you did it.
He knew you would do this, and maybe 100s of times.........on the day that He saved you......God knew you would be doing that later.
And He saved you anyway.

See that?

Think on that.... and learn something about God's Grace.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, all of that has nothing to do with Heb 12:6...."chastening"...as this is not about punishment.......its about inner correction that is targeted at something in your flesh that is blocking you from maturing spiritually.
God will target this area in your flesh that has to be removed or controlled, and it can be that He'll do it through the word , the Bible......as you read it....and you fall under conviction about whatever that is in you that is carnal and has to be corrected.
Saint, have you never felt that a verse in the Bible or a Sermon you were listening to was "talking to YOU"?

God does that.....sometimes........but mostly with the word...........As the word is "correction" and "instruction"..... remember?

2 Tim 3:16

This happens to every believer and its a process of going through something, even if its just a very strong inner conviction that came to you when you were reading the word of God.

Other times... you'll be given a situation to endure, that is not fun, and will frustrate you, and yet you have to get to the end of it.......and over that period time, ( a day, a week, 5 yrs...) as you keep bearing it.......you grow and change in that area of your flesh that was blocking God and blocking your spirutual Growth.

The other type of Chastening, is for severe backsliders..... Its for the born again eternally redeemed .who returned to their old ways, and want to stay there and enjoy their carnality.
Thats a DEMAS.......>>"who loved this present world" and left the ministry to go and get more of it.
He was probably a handsome young man who loved the ladies and the wine and the party......and he missed it so much, that he left the walk of faith and returned to the sensual sewer that is this world system.
So, in that case, the Heb 12:6 is going to be more severe on you.....and you'll get a few of those over time, and if you wont repent, then Paul says you'll "die".
You'll die born again and heaven bound.

And the reason that some of you can't believe that a person who did that will go to heaven, is because you have not yet learned anything about the Blood Atonement, the Sacrifice of Christ and The Grace of God.
And its time you did..., as you are supposed to stop being a baby believer who is stuck in Hebrews 6:1.

Reader, if you are truly born again, and not just water baptized and religious, then you belong to God, forever by spiritual birth. = Born again.
You can't stop being born again, as this is GOD CAUSED and GOD maintained.

Listen....
God's Son paid for your eternal redemption with His BLOOD and DEATH.........You are "blood bought" and God lives in you.
How you behave does not change this at all......so be careful that you never wander too far off the course, for too long.
Instead just place everything in the "not so import" category when compared to making God happy with your behavior and your life, always knowing that you are accepted by Him, on your best days, your worst days, and all the days in-between.

Always remember that we are kept in perfect peace with God, not based on how we behave, but based on the finished work of Jesus on The Cross.
So, REST in this Grace of God, and keep yourself close to God., and enjoy your life and your relationship to the Father and to the Son....always,

 

[Anchorite]

Inflicting pain on a child might be a last resort in a serious situation, like slapping their hand as it reaches for a flame or electrical socket.

But physically harming a child teaches it that violence is okay.

I think, after a certain age, deprivation would be a more effective punishment.

Taking away their toys, cell phone, tv, freedom to visit friends, privileges, etc.

 

[Taken]

The first thing to know about our born again Relationship to God, is that God never charges sin to you ever again if you are born again.

Precisely

Why not?

Because…
They who Believe; God is With Them…
And if that man Leaves God, so also shall God Leave that man.

But…
They who ARE born again… the Spirit of God, (Gods Power), is IN that man…
And BY Gods POWER, that man is Forever Kept in Belief.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Anchorite]

We might still sin, but the sin is not automatically forgiven and washed away. That idea leads to carnal libertine behavior.

We need to confess each sin and struggle to stop sinning.


I John

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Taken]

Again, I disagree. That's impossible,

So we disagree, ok with me.

No, not impossible, but exactly The Consequence, Result, for a man willing to be bodily crucified with Jesus Body.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Bombastic]

A saved Soul…is a soul that is “restored”.

I don't believe that either. "Restored" conveys the unrighteous disposition of Adam before the fall. Regenerated are transformed into the image of the last Adam.
And it is a point of controversy to suggest that the soul or unique identity will remain after regeneration, sanctification, and glorification.
Rather than animated by the soul, in the case of the natural man, the regenerated man is animated by the "Spirit of the L-rd." Note the wording; the Holy Spirit is often substituted by NT translators in support of NT theology.
In trinitarianism, each person is unique, which can be understood by man to suggest a unique identity. Although each person in the G-dhead is individual enough to commune together but not individual enough to oppose the will of each other.
We will have to wait until after glorification; at least for me, I can't say whether my "soul" will exist. I welcome perfect communion.

 

[Taken]

We might still sin, but the sin is not automatically forgiven and washed away. That idea leads to carnal libertine behavior.

Did anyone…claim sin is automatically forgiven?

We need to confess each sin and struggle to stop sinning.

Do you have a list of sins You struggle with you can share, so We know what you are talking about?

I John

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Did anyone claim they have no sin?

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

How many times does God Forgive and Cleanse a man FROM “ALL” unrighteousness…
Before Gods Forgiveness and Cleansing…
Is accomplished?

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Did anyone claim they have not Sinned?

Thanks.

 

[Taken]

I don't believe that either. "Restored" conveys the unrighteous disposition of Adam before the fall.

You think “Restored means” unrighteous?
Weird.

And it is a point of controversy to suggest that the soul or unique identity will remain after regeneration, sanctification, and glorification.

God CREATED…manKind from dust OF the Earth.
And THEN… God MADE that manKIND being alive.
And God called His Works “Very Good”.

EVERY manKIND of being’s body thereafter body is Created, by a mans seed, formed by God, delivered born, and MADE alive (given Life (soul) From God.

A mans BODY, has its Life, (Blood), that which (Maintains the body’s Functions, for it vital organs).

The (Soul), it’s Life (Gods Breath) belongs TO God… and
IN or OUT of the Body…that Souls “Function” is COMMUNICATION CAPABILITIES.

In a body…
Ears hear
Eyes see
Mouth utters sound
Tongue tastes
Nose smells
Flesh feels touch

A soul Departed OUT of a body…
Maintains its COMMUNICATION ABILITIES…
AS Long AS God Leaves His breath of Life IN that Soul.

Every body, born of a mans Seed…
IS CORRUPT.
It IS Born IN SIN.
Which means it was Born NOT BELIEVING IN GOD .

Souls BECOME corrupt, occupying a Human body “born in Sin”.

A corrupt soul, (communicates)… Against God, through it COMMUNICATION skills.

A body that which comes into Heartful Belief in God….
AND… such body that which Elects to CONVEY to God, his True Heartful Belief, DOES So, By, Through, Of…His Soul…
TO:
Gods Advocate…CHRIST the Lord Jesus.
Vis Communication…
OF the mans MOUTH, uttering his Hearts (natural spirit) True Belief, IN God

IF
Such mans Confession BE TRUE…
AND… FYI… God VERIFIES, searches a man’s heart (spirit) to SEE IF his confession be True.!)

IF TRUE…. THEN, Gods Forgives that Souls Sin (for having HAD unbelief)…
And…
That SOUL… IS MADE…. RESTORED…. Back to Very Good, as it was when God Gave that soul to that body.

OT believing men Knew that… you should have learned that also.

Pss 23:
[1] The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
[2] He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
[3] He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
…


The whole of a manKIND being…
IS:
Body, Soul, Spirit.
( MADE in the Likeness of God…
Body, Soul, Spirit).

If you do Not know or Understand the Make/Up of your own self…it’s functions, Lives, purposes.

How would you KNOW what is Not pleasing to God, or Know HOW TO proceed To “Correct”, that which displeases God?

Glory to God,
Taken






Rather than animated by the soul, in the case of the natural man, the regenerated man is animated by the "Spirit of the L-rd." Note the wording; the Holy Spirit is often substituted by NT translators in support of NT theology.
In trinitarianism, each person is unique, which can be understood by man to suggest a unique identity. Although each person in the G-dhead is individual enough to commune together but not individual enough to oppose the will of each other.
We will have to wait until after glorification; at least for me, I can't say whether my "soul" will exist. I welcome perfect communion.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Taken]

We will have to wait until after glorification; at least for me, I can't say whether my "soul" will exist. I welcome perfect communion.

Glorification…IS the final manifestation…
Of a Body, without Sin…
Of a Spirit, born of Gods Seed…
Of a Soul, whose communication is Only Truth…

The “Restoration process” Begins while a mans Body is naturally Alive, in the body’s Life (Blood).

The Preparation is one thing…
Another thing IS:
The Completion… is manifested… after the body’s Death… and Visible / Manifested…
When (such) body is Called Up and Risen TO the Lord God Almighty.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Anchorite]

Do you have a list of sins You struggle with you can share, so We know what you are talking about?

You go first. Or are you perfect and never sin?

How many times does God Forgive and Cleanse a man FROM “ALL” unrighteousness…
Before Gods Forgiveness and Cleansing…
Is accomplished?

Every time we sin, we can go to God, confess the sin, and be forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness.

This is basic Christianity. Should not be mysterious.