Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

[bbyrd009]

What does this mean to you:
John 1[29] The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Apparently, God the Father needed a mediator, just as much as we do!

well, i suggest it is all in the Esau Cycle, but the possibility that a sacrifice was arranged to appease the will of the people should not be ignored imo. Yah is love, and i say again that Jesus did not die for our sins, at least in the context that we are taught. "Jesus died for our sins" cannot be Quoted, No son of man may die for another's sins can. There was a literal law of sin and death in those days, guys.
Think about it

Eli, Eli, llama sabachthani then makes sense too

 

[Waiting on him]

well, i suggest it is all in the Esau Cycle, but the possibility that a sacrifice was arranged to appease the will of the people should not be ignored imo. Yah is love, and i say again that Jesus did not die for our sins, at least in the context that we are taught. "Jesus died for our sins" cannot be Quoted, No son of man may die for another's sins can. There was a literal law of sin and death in those days, guys.
Think about it

Eli, Eli, llama sabachthani then makes sense too

Sup bbyrd, so what do you believe took place there on Calvary?

what in your view was demonstrated?

 

[Earburner]

Yah is love, and i say again that Jesus did not die for our sins, at least in the context that we are taught. "Jesus died for our sins" cannot be Quoted, No son of man may die for another's sins can. There was a literal law of sin and death in those days, guys.

So then, you have no reply to make about John 1:29?
Well, in your quote, that is true, "no son of man may die for another's sins".
The sin in a man cannot make atonement for sin in another man.
However, he who is the Son of God, and also the son of man, CAN make an atonement for another's sin.
Jesus is the God/man, the go between, the bridge, the only Mediator for God the Father and man.
I believe Jesus used that term: "the son of man" to the Jews, so that they would search the scriptures

 

[Earburner]

When I asked: "So then, you have no reply to make about John 1:29?" , I am meaning, you don't see in that verse, that God the Father Himself provided the sacrifice for sin and our reconciliation, through Jesus?

 

[john t]

1. Because it is in Rev. 20, that you referenced.
See Revelation 20:7-9.
2. Jesus is from above, aka from Heaven, being himself heavenly. We who are of Adam, are from beneath, aka from earth, being ourselves earthy.
However, for all who are born again from above, by His Holy Spirit, we are New creatures, a whole New creation, spiritually "translated into the kingdom of His dear Son", aka being that of "heavenly Jerusalem, the mother of us all [who are saved]".
John 3[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Revelation 20:
7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,

Yes Gog and Magog are mentioned, but it has ZERO to do with the reason I posted what I did.

But I have serious doubts that they are the same because I cannot find a Bible reference stating that. What I found is this:

The OP has to do with the belief in annihilation. Therefore and not rudely, I remain unable to see the connection to the belief in annihilation, therefore I remain confused.

But I have serious doubts that they are the same because I cannot find a Bible reference stating that. What I found is this:

Of Gog's allies, Meshech and Tubal were 7th-century BC kingdoms in central Anatolia north of Israel, Persia towards east, Cush (Ethiopia) and Put (Libya) to the south; Gomer is the Cimmerians, a nomadic people north of the Black Sea, and Beth Togarmah was on the border of Tubal.​

from Wikipedia

And this:

MAGOG:
ma'-gog (maghogh; Magog): Named among the sons of Japheth (Ge 10:2; 1Ch 1:5). Ezekiel uses the word as equivalent to "land of Gog" (Eze 38:2; 39:6). Josephus identifies the Magogites with the Scythians (Ant., I, vi, 1). From a resemblance between the names Gog and Gyges (Gugu), king of Lydia, some have suggested that Magog is Lydia; others, however, urge that Magog is probably only a variant of Gog (Sayce in HDB). In the Apocalypse of John, Gog and Magog represent all the heathen opponents of Messiah (Re 20:8), and in this sense these names frequently recur in Jewish apocalyptic literature.​

John A. Lees in International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

Therefore, while I am sure that someone you trust taught you this (Dispensational) theology, it does not Jive with what the ISBE states. There are simply too many speculations (read them both again) to make a statement as definitive as you have.

 

[Earburner]

Revelation 20:
7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,

Yes Gog and Magog are mentioned, but it has ZERO to do with the reason I posted what I did.

But I have serious doubts that they are the same because I cannot find a Bible reference stating that. What I found is this:

The OP has to do with the belief in annihilation. Therefore and not rudely, I remain unable to see the connection to the belief in annihilation, therefore I remain confused.

But I have serious doubts that they are the same because I cannot find a Bible reference stating that. What I found is this:

Of Gog's allies, Meshech and Tubal were 7th-century BC kingdoms in central Anatolia north of Israel, Persia towards east, Cush (Ethiopia) and Put (Libya) to the south; Gomer is the Cimmerians, a nomadic people north of the Black Sea, and Beth Togarmah was on the border of Tubal.​

from Wikipedia

And this:

MAGOG:
ma'-gog (maghogh; Magog): Named among the sons of Japheth (Ge 10:2; 1Ch 1:5). Ezekiel uses the word as equivalent to "land of Gog" (Eze 38:2; 39:6). Josephus identifies the Magogites with the Scythians (Ant., I, vi, 1). From a resemblance between the names Gog and Gyges (Gugu), king of Lydia, some have suggested that Magog is Lydia; others, however, urge that Magog is probably only a variant of Gog (Sayce in HDB). In the Apocalypse of John, Gog and Magog represent all the heathen opponents of Messiah (Re 20:8), and in this sense these names frequently recur in Jewish apocalyptic literature.​

John A. Lees in International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

Therefore, while I am sure that someone you trust taught you this (Dispensational) theology, it does not Jive with what the ISBE states. There are simply too many speculations (read them both again) to make a statement as definitive as you have.

The fact of God mentioning Gog and Magog in the book of Rev., is to be understood in symbolism.
"The camp of the saints" is symbolic of all born again Christians surrounded, as being enemies to the belief system of the NWO through the UN (image of the beast).
They will not comply to receiving the MoB, and as a result will be considered to be enemies against their one world government.

Quite literally, due to the mandatory implimentation of the MoB, "the sheep and the goats" will be in the moment, effectively divided, as to who is a believer in Christ, trusting in God, and who is not.

It will be in that time, the end of God's Age of Grace will have "finished", and God the Father will send His Son Jesus to redeem ALL His people, who in coming, will be "in flaming fire", which shall destroy all the unsaved, who are "none of His".

Luke 18[8] I tell you that he will avenge them [His saints] speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

 

[Brakelite]

Isn't that adding a resurrection where there isn't one?

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The dead were judged.

Much love!

Indeed. And what happened to them in the end... The second death. You can't die twice without being resurrected once.

KJV Revelation 20
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
An easier way to understand this verse is...
This first Resurrection, spoken of in previous verses, excludes the rest of the dead, the unsaved, because they didn't live again until the 1000 years were finished.
KJV Revelation 20
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Those who take part in the first Resurrection (at the second coming) are blessed indeed. The second death to come upon sinners after their judgement at the end of the 1000 years will not affect these redeemed.
KJV Revelation 20
The Final Judgement
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
The rest of the dead then having been raised in the Resurrection of damnation shall be innumerable, and shall cover the planet. Their only hope of escaping the just sentence of death, is to attack the very city of God, there new Jerusalem now the habitation of the saints.
KJV Revelation 20
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
For ever and ever elsewhere in scripture is used in contexts that do not mean eternity. For example the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah.
KJV Revelation 20
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The above verses take us back in time to before those 'dead' attack the city. They were judged righteously and found guilty. Their judgement was just having been based on their works... Not on their profession.
Thus God's actions are fully justified, from the beginning of creation to the end of this world. All His decisions are therefore fully vindicated... He has been on trial as well as us, and the vindication if His decisions and choices are more important to the security of the future universe than our own salvation.

Italics are backlit paraphrase. No copyright.

 

[Brakelite]

Revelation 20:
9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,
10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Only live things can be tormented

This is another strong refutation from the Bible against the heresy of annihilationism. It simply is not true.

Question. This fire that consumed all the wicked, where was it?

 

[Giuliano]

You can't die twice without being resurrected once.

I don't know. In one way, maybe. In another way, maybe not.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Earburner]

Revelation 20:
7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,

Yes Gog and Magog are mentioned, but it has ZERO to do with the reason I posted what I did.

But I have serious doubts that they are the same because I cannot find a Bible reference stating that. What I found is this:

The OP has to do with the belief in annihilation. Therefore and not rudely, I remain unable to see the connection to the belief in annihilation, therefore I remain confused.

But I have serious doubts that they are the same because I cannot find a Bible reference stating that. What I found is this:

Of Gog's allies, Meshech and Tubal were 7th-century BC kingdoms in central Anatolia north of Israel, Persia towards east, Cush (Ethiopia) and Put (Libya) to the south; Gomer is the Cimmerians, a nomadic people north of the Black Sea, and Beth Togarmah was on the border of Tubal.​

from Wikipedia

And this:

MAGOG:
ma'-gog (maghogh; Magog): Named among the sons of Japheth (Ge 10:2; 1Ch 1:5). Ezekiel uses the word as equivalent to "land of Gog" (Eze 38:2; 39:6). Josephus identifies the Magogites with the Scythians (Ant., I, vi, 1). From a resemblance between the names Gog and Gyges (Gugu), king of Lydia, some have suggested that Magog is Lydia; others, however, urge that Magog is probably only a variant of Gog (Sayce in HDB). In the Apocalypse of John, Gog and Magog represent all the heathen opponents of Messiah (Re 20:8), and in this sense these names frequently recur in Jewish apocalyptic literature.​

John A. Lees in International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

Therefore, while I am sure that someone you trust taught you this (Dispensational) theology, it does not Jive with what the ISBE states. There are simply too many speculations (read them both again) to make a statement as definitive as you have.

When you look at Revelation 20:9, you are looking at annihilation of millions of people, who are against (surrounded) the camp of the saints (born again Christians), who in that moment, will be resurrected/changed into His likeness, on that Day of His return "in flaming fire".
2 Thessalonians 1:8

The fact of God mentioning Gog and Magog is to be understood in symbolism.
The camp of the saints is symbolic of all born again Christians surrounded, as being enemies to the belief system of the NWO through the UN (image of the beast).
They will not comply to receiving the MoB, and as a result will be considered to be enemies against their one world government.

Quite literally, due to the mandatory implimentation of the MoB, the sheep and the goats will be in the moment effectively separated, as to who is a believer in Christ, through "faith" trusting in God, and who is not.

 

[Earburner]

^ Edit: 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

 

[Brakelite]

I don't know. In one way, maybe. In another way, maybe not.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

So we need to understand what soul is in that context. Is the soul a sentient being without the body? Is the mind a part of the body? Is that not where or consciousness is centered? Does the mind die when the body dies?
KJV Psalms 146
2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Perhaps we need to differentiate between soul and Spirit also? God only is immortal, and He is Spirit. Therefore God only is an immortal Spirit. Not us. Not the Spirit... Not the soul... Not the body. I don't see where any individual component has consciousness apart from
A. Resurrection
B. In union with the other component parts.

After all, are to understand that the spirit, or soul or whatever, is now enjoying singing and praising and hearing and walking and tasting and seeing all there is in heaven, without the physical body through which those senses operate? What then the propose of a resurrection if we can do all those things in heaven without it? And if the body can be destroyed, destroyed as Jesus said, in fire, how can the soul, or spirit or whatever, continue to feel pain, anguish and suffering (gnashing of teeth) without it?

 

[ReChoired]

Have anyone seen:

Genesis - Paradise Lost

Matthew_ten_Verseight

More on God's plan in Creation here -
http://supernaturalresources.epizy.com/created-with-purpose-creation-to-redemption-history/

 

[Giuliano]

So we need to understand what soul is in that context. Is the soul a sentient being without the body? Is the mind a part of the body? Is that not where or consciousness is centered? Does the mind die when the body dies?
KJV Psalms 146
2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Perhaps we need to differentiate between soul and Spirit also? God only is immortal, and He is Spirit. Therefore God only is an immortal Spirit. Not us. Not the Spirit... Not the soul... Not the body. I don't see where any individual component has consciousness apart from
A. Resurrection
B. In union with the other component parts.

After all, are to understand that the spirit, or soul or whatever, is now enjoying singing and praising and hearing and walking and tasting and seeing all there is in heaven, without the physical body through which those senses operate? What then the propose of a resurrection if we can do all those things in heaven without it? And if the body can be destroyed, destroyed as Jesus said, in fire, how can the soul, or spirit or whatever, continue to feel pain, anguish and suffering (gnashing of teeth) without it?

I can tell you what I believe. Soul is frequently described as mortal, spirit never is. They are different.

The "real you" is hard to find since it's gotten mixed up entangled with matter. You are a spirit. You are part of God. The spirit of men when it goes terribly wrong either returns to God where it loses its individual identity or it can go into the Outer Darkness.

The "real you" has or owns four parts -- although Moses lists three. Moses has it as heart, soul and body. He's melded "soul and mind" into "soul." So Jesus gives the more complete picture with the four being heart, soul, mind and body. You can see that the "real you" possesses those by the pronoun "thy." They are not you. They belong to you.

Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

All four are meant to be vessels, instruments or "chariots" for the spirit. All four are meant to be subject to spirit -- and failure in any of the four creates inner conflict with a clashing of energy. So if you mind knows what is right to do, but you heart wants something else and your body sins, you have a conflict. A house divided against itself cannot stand. There is a hierarchy involved too: Spirit then heart then mind then soul and finally body. Spirit is meant to be in control of them using that hierarchy.

In the fallen world, that hierarchy tends to be inverted. The body rules, using its false carnal sense of self. The soul gets enslaved by the carnal nature; and then those two daze the mind, confusing it and making it unsound. Finally the heart gets perverted; and the spirit says, "What am I doing? Everything is out of control." In this condition, Jesus can send his spirit to help yours -- and he knows how to bring all four of those vessels back into obedience. If all four are perfected (or extremely close), you are ready to be born "of the spirit." Earlier being born of the water means your soul was cleansed. That makes it easier for the Christ Spirit to get other things in order.

Someone born of the spirit can "fly." He's not stuck in his physical body, not trapped or enslaved by it. He can be described as a son of man -- made the way the original Adam or man was. The "son of man" is both in heaven but also comes down. Jesus described himself as son of man; Ezekiel was also called that. Not much is said about what a cherub is -- but they are chariots in a way -- and the same Hebrew letters are used in both words -- the same letters are used in the river Chebar also.

God can be described as flying on a cherub.

2 Samuel 22:11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.

Compare to:

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

My study of astrology came in handy too since the cherubim can be seen in the zodiac.

Calf - Taurus the Bull -- earth -- physical body.
Eagle -- off a little -- this is Aquila close to Scopio the scorpion -- the emotional body or soul.
Man -- Aquarius -- the man which is actually both male and female -- the mental body.
Lion -- Leo the lion -- heart or some call it the volitional body since it is where our basic impulses spring from.

We humans can get very confused by which is which -- thus the confusion between soul and spirit. The Catholic Church lost its knowledge of this quite early on. The confusion gets cleared up only when Jesus speaks "the Word" which separates them. When the four are separated, the spirit can tell which is which.

Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The separating should begin shortly after becoming a Christian and reach its culmination when one enters the eternal rest by being born of the spirit. At that point, the "newly born child" is forever with the Lord in one way -- while the physical body can live on for the purpose of leading others to salvation. One is taken, one left behind. The male child in Revelation is caught up while the mother is left below with her other offspring persecuted by the dragon. Yes, that portrays Jesus -- but it also can portray us too.

Some people experience things without knowing what they are. Each of those four has its own level. Thus there is the physical world and the three heavens. The human soul, even if sinful, can often travel in the lowest heaven which has been corrupted and turned into hell -- it's called astral travel. I have seen some horrible things on the "astral plane" or "in hell" whichever you what to call it. There is a barrier there though between the first and second heavens -- a firmament -- so the sinful soul cannot get up into the second or third heavens on its own. If the mental body has learned how to fly, it's also restricted and can't get up to the third heaven on its own. Nor can the volitional body get into the third heaven if impure -- those with impure hearts are shut out.

 

[john t]

When you look at Revelation 20:9, you are looking at annihilation of millions of people, who are against (surrounded) the camp of the saints (born again Christians), who in that moment, will be resurrected/changed into His likeness, on that Day of His return "in flaming fire".
2 Thessalonians 1:8

You are using the word too loosely. The OP mentions the (mostly SDA) doctrine who believe that the dead heathens shall cease to exist when Christ returns. This doctrine negated the doctrine of hell.

You are using the word to describe those in hell, and perhaps to explain the Tribulation. Your definition is far different than the word as used in the OP.

The fact of God mentioning Gog and Magog is to be understood in symbolism.

By what criteria do you determine that "this is literal, and that is symbols in an allegory?

Your interpretation needs to have consistency, otherwise, it is like putting food on your plate at a Chinese buffet: I'll take a little bit of this, skip over that in order to get the dum sung.

The camp of the saints is symbolic of all born again Christians surrounded, as being enemies to the belief system of the NWO through the UN (image of the beast).

Same as above; you seem to be inconsistent in your application.

They will not comply to receiving the MoB, and as a result will be considered to be enemies against their one world government.

Quite literally, due to the mandatory implimentation of the MoB, the sheep and the goats will be in the moment effectively separated, as to who is a believer in Christ, through "faith" trusting in God, and who is not.

Yep, I believe you learned that at a so-called prophecy conference.

 

[john t]

Question. This fire that consumed all the wicked, where was it?

In your imagination (and that is a fact; NOT being snarky).
You will not find anything mentioning "annihilation" here below:

Revelation 20:
The Defeat of Satan
7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,
10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
ESV​

The section headings give you the context, and there is ZERO things telling of the annihilation of people. Even in their Second Death, they are live in the Lake of Fire.

 

[Earburner]

I can tell you what I believe. Soul is frequently described as mortal, spirit never is. They are different.

The "real you" is hard to find since it's gotten mixed up entangled with matter. You are a spirit. You are part of God. The spirit of men when it goes terribly wrong either returns to God where it loses its individual identity or it can go into the Outer Darkness.

The "real you" has or owns four parts -- although Moses lists three. Moses has it as heart, soul and body. He's melded "soul and mind" into "soul." So Jesus gives the more complete picture with the four being heart, soul, mind and body. You can see that the "real you" possesses those by the pronoun "thy." They are not you. They belong to you.

Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

All four are meant to be vessels, instruments or "chariots" for the spirit. All four are meant to be subject to spirit -- and failure in any of the four creates inner conflict with a clashing of energy. So if you mind knows what is right to do, but you heart wants something else and your body sins, you have a conflict. A house divided against itself cannot stand. There is a hierarchy involved too: Spirit then heart then mind then soul and finally body. Spirit is meant to be in control of them using that hierarchy.

In the fallen world, that hierarchy tends to be inverted. The body rules, using its false carnal sense of self. The soul gets enslaved by the carnal nature; and then those two daze the mind, confusing it and making it unsound. Finally the heart gets perverted; and the spirit says, "What am I doing? Everything is out of control." In this condition, Jesus can send his spirit to help yours -- and he knows how to bring all four of those vessels back into obedience. If all four are perfected (or extremely close), you are ready to be born "of the spirit." Earlier being born of the water means your soul was cleansed. That makes it easier for the Christ Spirit to get other things in order.

Someone born of the spirit can "fly." He's not stuck in his physical body, not trapped or enslaved by it. He can be described as a son of man -- made the way the original Adam or man was. The "son of man" is both in heaven but also comes down. Jesus described himself as son of man; Ezekiel was also called that. Not much is said about what a cherub is -- but they are chariots in a way -- and the same Hebrew letters are used in both words -- the same letters are used in the river Chebar also.

God can be described as flying on a cherub.

2 Samuel 22:11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.

Compare to:

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

My study of astrology came in handy too since the cherubim can be seen in the zodiac.

Calf - Taurus the Bull -- earth -- physical body.
Eagle -- off a little -- this is Aquila close to Scopio the scorpion -- the emotional body or soul.
Man -- Aquarius -- the man which is actually both male and female -- the mental body.
Lion -- Leo the lion -- heart or some call it the volitional body since it is where our basic impulses spring from.

We humans can get very confused by which is which -- thus the confusion between soul and spirit. The Catholic Church lost its knowledge of this quite early on. The confusion gets cleared up only when Jesus speaks "the Word" which separates them. When the four are separated, the spirit can tell which is which.

Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The separating should begin shortly after becoming a Christian and reach its culmination when one enters the eternal rest by being born of the spirit. At that point, the "newly born child" is forever with the Lord in one way -- while the physical body can live on for the purpose of leading others to salvation. One is taken, one left behind. The male child in Revelation is caught up while the mother is left below with her other offspring persecuted by the dragon. Yes, that portrays Jesus -- but it also can portray us too.

Some people experience things without knowing what they are. Each of those four has its own level. Thus there is the physical world and the three heavens. The human soul, even if sinful, can often travel in the lowest heaven which has been corrupted and turned into hell -- it's called astral travel. I have seen some horrible things on the "astral plane" or "in hell" whichever you what to call it. There is a barrier there though between the first and second heavens -- a firmament -- so the sinful soul cannot get up into the second or third heavens on its own. If the mental body has learned how to fly, it's also restricted and can't get up to the third heaven on its own. Nor can the volitional body get into the third heaven if impure -- those with impure hearts are shut out.

After hearing your rendition of what "soul" is, as well as the million other commentators out there, grasping for the words to give a description, I can sum it up in one word: Blood!
Now, in the Bible (KJV) study everything that has to do with the shedding of blood and/or pouring out one's soul, and you will understand God's perspective about it.
I will start you off with 3 scriptures from the KJV:
Leviticus 17:11
Genesis 2:7
Genesis 4:10

 

[Giuliano]

After hearing your rendition of what "soul" is, as well as the million other commentators out there, grasping for the words to give a description, I can sum it up in one word: Blood!
Now, in the Bible (KJV) study everything that has to do with the shedding of blood and/or pouring out one's soul, and you will understand God's perspective about it.
I will start you off with 3 scriptures from the KJV:
Leviticus 17:11
Genesis 2:7
Genesis 4:10

Yes, and the "shape" of the soul follows the shape of the blood system since the soul attaches itself to the blood.

 

[bbyrd009]

Sup bbyrd, so what do you believe took place there on Calvary?

what in your view was demonstrated?

well, pretty much as advertised in Scripture imo, the Virgin will be with child, you are freed from the law of sin and death, written in such a way as to hide wisdom from the wise, he who says he knows and all that. Christ died for our sins i dont dispute at all ok, but i understand that as a spiritual principle, not a "historical" fact so much any more

 

[VictoryinJesus]

So we need to understand what soul is in that context. Is the soul a sentient being without the body? Is the mind a part of the body? Is that not where or consciousness is centered? Does the mind die when the body dies?
KJV Psalms 146
2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Perhaps we need to differentiate between soul and Spirit also? God only is immortal, and He is Spirit. Therefore God only is an immortal Spirit. Not us. Not the Spirit... Not the soul... Not the body. I don't see where any individual component has consciousness apart from
A. Resurrection
B. In union with the other component parts.

After all, are to understand that the spirit, or soul or whatever, is now enjoying singing and praising and hearing and walking and tasting and seeing all there is in heaven, without the physical body through which those senses operate? What then the propose of a resurrection if we can do all those things in heaven without it? And if the body can be destroyed, destroyed as Jesus said, in fire, how can the soul, or spirit or whatever, continue to feel pain, anguish and suffering (gnashing of teeth) without it?

Questions concerning ‘soul and spirit’ . You said “Perhaps we need to differentiate between soul and Spirit also? God only is immortal, and He is Spirit.”

Leviticus 26:9-12 For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you. [10] And ye shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new. [11] And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you. [12] And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.