Must You Be Born Again?

[marks]

Of course, if you gamble that in John 3:5, "water" is speaking of amniotic fluid, and end up being wrong, you lose everything.

If on the other hand, you believe that it is speaking of baptism, and obey the sacrament because of that belief, and it turns out to be true, you have gained everything; and if it turns out not to be true, you have lost nothing.

Or . . . maybe you've just injected a healthy dose of legalism into your faith.

I do not believe in the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. We are saved by grace through faith. Romans tells us it "has to be" by faith, so that salvation can be for everyone.

Myself, I'm not really wanting to form a faith around "I'll just keep the Law** in case I have to".

** Law here is referring to whatever list of requirements that must be performed to be right with God. We don't perform anything, we trust completely in Jesus' performance.

"That the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled IN us", not "through us".

Much love!

 

[Pearl]

Some get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and they receive the Holy Ghost as a direct result of that (see Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39)

I received the Holy Spirit a long time before I was baptised properly. I belonged to an Anglican church whose traditions call Christening infant baptism and although our lovely born again vicar agreed with me he wouldn't baptise me as it went against the teaching of the church of England. So as I believed that God wanted me to take that next step I left the church and joined a New Testament church where I have been ever since. I loved my first church though, such good teaching which laid solid foundations to build my growing faith on.

 

[JohnDB]

So...now we have people willing to admit that dictionaries as well as some science knowledge is necessary to understand the Bible...

Sounds like cherry picking which extra biblical knowledge is necessary for understanding the scriptures...

As well as knowledge of various poetry styles and methods and a whole host of things...

So....

Again we have people declaring that their limited cherry picked extra biblical knowledge trumps anything anyone else says.

So...I wonder if these people have poisonous snake handling services....I hear there's plenty of openings cause the last one died of snake bites.

 

[Pearl]

So...now we have people willing to admit that dictionaries as well as some science knowledge is necessary to understand the Bible...

Sounds like cherry picking which extra biblical knowledge is necessary for understanding the scriptures...

As well as knowledge of various poetry styles and methods and a whole host of things...

So....

Again we have people declaring that their limited cherry picked extra biblical knowledge trumps anything anyone else says.

So...I wonder if these people have poisonous snake handling services....I hear there's plenty of openings cause the last one died of snake bites.

The main thing we need to understand the bible isn't a thing at all it is the Holy Spirit. To read the bible without first praying to be enlightened and have it's meaning revealed is possible a waste of time. How often have I read a passage I know well only for the Holy Spirit to reveal something new to me from those very same words. The bible is like a living organism and without the Holy Spirit it doesn't really come alive.

 

[justbyfaith]

Or . . . maybe you've just injected a healthy dose of legalism into your faith.

I do not believe in the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. We are saved by grace through faith. Romans tells us it "has to be" by faith, so that salvation can be for everyone.

Myself, I'm not really wanting to form a faith around "I'll just keep the Law** in case I have to".

** Law here is referring to whatever list of requirements that must be performed to be right with God. We don't perform anything, we trust completely in Jesus' performance.

"That the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled IN us", not "through us".

Much love!

I don't really believe that baptism is a work; because it does have the power to save a man (1 Peter 3:20-21).

I received the Holy Spirit a long time before I was baptised properly.

Are you certain of that? How do you know it was the Holy Spirit that you received?

btw, I also believe that I received the Holy Spirit before I was baptized.

But, even as Peter said, in the case of Cornelius and friends, "These have received the Holy Ghost. Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized even as we?"

So I became obedient to the sacrament.

I believe that God even gave me the Holy Ghost before hand because from the perspective of predestination, He knew that I would eventually receive baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

So...I wonder if these people have poisonous snake handling services....I hear there's plenty of openings cause the last one died of snake bites.

You should really consider that James 3:7 interprets Mark 16:18.

 

[JohnDB]

I don't really believe that baptism is a work; because it does have the power to save a man (1 Peter 3:20-21).



Are you certain of that? How do you know it was the Holy Spirit that you received?

btw, I also believe that I received the Holy Spirit before I was baptized.

But, even as Peter said, in the case of Cornelius and friends, "These have received the Holy Ghost. Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized even as we?"

So I became obedient to the sacrament.

I believe that God even gave me the Holy Ghost before hand because from the perspective of predestination, He knew that I would eventually receive baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.



You should really consider that James 3:7 interprets Mark 16:18.

So you are a snake handling preacher eh?

When did you get bit last?

 

[Pearl]

Are you certain of that? How do you know it was the Holy Spirit that you received?

I am absolutely certain and I do not have to prove anything to you. Sounds like you are a little sceptical.

 

[justbyfaith]

So you are a snake handling preacher eh?

When did you get bit last?

You misunderstand me.

I am saying that when serpents threaten a third-world village, the believers in that town are able to tame those serpents and cause them to not be a threat to the town.

Of course it is not saying that we should go out of our way to handle poisonous snakes. That would be tempting the Lord.

 

[justbyfaith]

I am absolutely certain and I do not have to prove anything to you. Sounds like you are a little sceptical.

Of course it is possible to receive the Holy Spirit merely by asking (Luke 11:9-13).

However, if you want to be able to tell people that you have Him based on a promise, He is absolutely promised to those who receive baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

Until then, any experience you may have is questionable; there are many who have ecstatic experiences who have never even believed in Jesus Christ.

 

[JohnDB]

The main thing we need to understand the bible isn't a thing at all it is the Holy Spirit. To read the bible without first praying to be enlightened and have it's meaning revealed is possible a waste of time. How often have I read a passage I know well only for the Holy Spirit to reveal something new to me from those very same words. The bible is like a living organism and without the Holy Spirit it doesn't really come alive.

God in the past, has been very silent and then has a flurry of activity. He seems absentee at times allowing men the opportunity to sin and then repent. False teachers have abounded with things such as the High Priest and his sons while Samuel was growing up.
(And yes, the Holy Spirit was active in the Old Testament)

So this is not going to work out for everyone.

God has given gifts to some to actually go through the knowledge available to discern what is true vx not true...just to be discredited by a snake handler and everyone dies from poisonous snakes...and God says that He warned them but they listened only to those that they wanted to hear instead of the truth. (Jeremiah, Jesus, Joel, Miciah, and and endless list have said this very thing)

So...
When claiming the "Holy Spirit" told you the meaning and that there is VERY credible evidence of another logical explanation....
It would again seem that personal imagination is at work here vx the whole truth.

 

[JohnDB]

You misunderstand me.

I am saying that when serpents threaten a third-world village, the believers in that town are able to tame those serpents and cause them to not be a threat to the town.

Of course it is not saying that we should go out of our way to handle poisonous snakes. That would be tempting the Lord.

It's NOT tempting...
The scriptures say "overtempting" and it was as sarcasm as God really wanted to kill some people.

 

[101G]

Addressing the OP.
correct on what the Lord Jesus said, "one must be born again". because he is the LAST ADAM, and if not in him, no eternal life.

the genealogy in Matthew 1:1 confirm this being BORN AGAIN. "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."

note the son of David, and then the son of Abraham. I'm sure Matthews knew that Abraham was before David, but this is not a biological genealogy, but a "generation", or a history of a House where, A. a King would come. and B. a Priest would come. and this King Prest have a PROMISE of these two men made by God. for in Abraham ... by Faith this seed mention in Genesis 3:15 will be the Father of many Nation. for as in Matthews 1:1 here and in John 1:1 is the end of human man, for all must be of HIM, "the promise seed". for he is the "LAST ADAM". and if not in him, there is no salvation, meaning you're at an end of any life.

so by Faith, (son of Abraham), comes (son of David), a ROOT out of dry ground, other words in the son of David, this son of Abraham comes NEW Life by Faith. a branch come forth, and the genealogies in Matthews and Luke is a genealogy of the ........ old man, or the corrupt man. for the New man is now come


so, one have to be, got to be, must be, Born again from above.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Pearl]

Of course it is possible to receive the Holy Spirit merely by asking (Luke 11:9-13).

However, if you want to be able to tell people that you have Him based on a promise, He is absolutely promised to those who receive baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

Until then, any experience you may have is questionable; there are many who have ecstatic experiences who have never even believed in Jesus Christ.

My own experience tells me different. And there are many people I know from various denominations who practice infant 'baptism' who have received the Holy Spirit without the believers baptism. Our relationship with Jesus is all important and if we have come to him and been re-born then our place in God's family is assured. The water baptism and the Spirit baptism can come at different times as we understand and are ready.

I was 'baptised' as an infant and also was Confirmed but neither of those events saved me. I was only saved once I was willing to turn from my old life - which in the world's eyes was pretty ok - and ask Jesus to come into my life and have a relationship with him.

 

[Base12]

So...now we have people willing to admit that dictionaries as well as some science knowledge is necessary to understand the Bible...

Absolutely! The more knowledge the better.



Think of the opposite...

Christians constantly 'dumbing down' the Word of God to their limited understanding of the world around them.

 

[marks]

So...now we have people willing to admit that dictionaries as well as some science knowledge is necessary to understand the Bible...

You do need to possess language faculty to benefit from a language based book. That seems evident.

Much love!

 

[Pearl]

Absolutely! The more knowledge the better.



Think of the opposite...

Christians constantly 'dumbing down' the Word of God to their limited understanding of the world around them.

Some who call themselves Christian are discouraged or forbidden to read their bibles without the 'guidance' of their 'institutions' in some form of one-size-fits-all bible study guides. Jesus came to set us free and part of that freedom is to be able to read God's word for ourselves; not to make up our own doctrines but to hear a personal message or to be given understanding or just to revel in the wonders that we read in those pages.

 

[marks]

I am absolutely certain and I do not have to prove anything to you. Sounds like you are a little sceptical.

His Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are children of God. That's not just flowery speech, but in fact His Spirit DOES testify.

We have nothing to prove to each other, And God proves Himself to us.

All that remains is that our lives bear the testimony of knowing God, that we love others.

Much love!

 

[Triumph1300]

Reading the Bible is impossible without extra biblical knowledge.

That would only come through the Holy Spirit.
I have heard some Bible University graduates preach the word without knowledge and understanding.
I have heard a simple uneducated person preach with lots of knowledge given to him by the Spirit.

The first one was reading from a piece of paper.
The second one did not read from notes.

 

[Triumph1300]

If we are sincere, God will provide what is needed to get to where He wants us to go. His goal, His will, rather than ours

That's what it amounts too.
Amadeus I always appreciate your posts.
You remind me of an older local ferry man who operated a small ferry across a river nearby my house.
We attended a bible study at his farm house for years.

 

[JohnDB]

Some who call themselves Christian are discouraged or forbidden to read their bibles without the 'guidance' of their 'institutions' in some form of one-size-fits-all bible study guides. Jesus came to set us free and part of that freedom is to be able to read God's word for ourselves; not to make up our own doctrines but to hear a personal message or to be given understanding or just to revel in the wonders that we read in those pages.

Such is the case of King Henry VIII and Wycliffe...
Wycliffe entered into the political fray of Catholic Church central authority vx local Authorities. This very verse was called into the defining the theological position.
Wycliffe actually was more aligned with King Henry vx Rome/Spain than anything but differed in other areas of politics...so the King had Wycliffe killed. But he didn't have the clout to kill Coverdale and his translation which much of it came from Wycliffe. (Kings rule at the will of the people too)

At any rate Wycliffe is thought to have purposefully mistranslated this section for political reasons..."genethe anothen" is greek for born from above...any first year Greek/latin student won't come to any other conclusion... because "anothen" means "upper" in every instance in every written document in every time period...

"Again" is not inferred here because Paul's description of regeneration or heart renewal was not thought of as a new birth. It doesn't fit Greek/Roman or Jewish mindset. Nicodemus was being sarcastic when talking to Jesus and his thoughts on incredulity of Jesus' statements and the requirements for actually holding the title/classification of "Born from Above" which referenced such giants of the faith as Samuel, Jacob, and Sampson.