Now it's not me, but sin that lives in me

[soul man]

Therefore, I must battle my old nature by relying upon the Holy Spirit, using God's Word as a guide, prayers for strength, vigilance toward the microseconds it takes to commit a sin, and perseverance until the sinful nature is subdued (at least temporarily).

Good comment. We didn't do to good the first time taking on sin as a nature. The sin nature, being dealt with at the cross, has left it's mark on the soul/mind. It is in the cross where everything is taken care of and our hope. The struggle I have as a believer will be in thinking I have a life (nature) of my own. That is old mind-will-knowledge that looks just like a nature (sin), but is coming from mind not nature. We know it's not nature because as you say we have a new nature.

 

[soul man]

Romans 7:17 is talking about a man who KNOWS the Ten Commandments and tries to keep them in his own strength because they are holy, but he finds he struggles against his flesh. Why? "But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me." Even after training his mind by his knowledge and will, the last verse says, "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."

And Paul has the benefit of being a strick law keeper, and now born again and speaking from that perspective.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Romans 7:17 "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

This simple statement encapsulates the meaning of justification as relates to the child of God. It is no longer I, but sin that lives in me.

Paul had just written that we are dead to sin, and alive unto God. That the one who has died has been "justified away from sin". Made righteous separating us away from sin.

This is the literal meaning of Romans 6

View attachment 13072
This is translated "freed from sin", because that is the result of our justification, a new life in Jesus. Having been freed from sin, justified away from sin, we can say with Paul,

"Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

This is not speaking of the unregenerate, else there would have been no change, no, "no more I that do it". Paul as an unregenerate, would have still been in his sins. The sinner.

That it is "no more I, but sin that lives in me", this means that sin still lives in me, that is, in my flesh, as he goes on to explain. No longer I.

If any be in Christ, he is a new creation. Everything old is gone, and all is new, and from God!

No longer I.

I am the righteous child of God, sharing His holy nature, sharing His eternal life.

Coming to understand this truth - it is no longer I, but sin that lives in me - we can begin to make the true separation within our minds concerning what is the mind of the flesh, which we can freely repudiate and abandon, and which is the mind of Christ, which we can embrace knowing this is our joy and peace and self-control.

If we fight against the mind of the flesh by the mind of the flesh . . . well, first, bind the strongman. Our weapons are not carnal, they are mighty, tearing down strongholds, bringing every thought to the obedience of Christ.

The battle is in the mind, and we put on that helmet of salvation, knowing in our minds that we are justified away from our sin, and it is No More I, but sin that lives in me.

It's not me that is defective. I am complete in Christ. But my old man? He's a really piece of work!

Jesus be strong in me today!

Much love!

@marks I went and searched for one of C.H. Spurgeon's teaching on indwelling sin. Here is the link if you care to read his sermon.
Indwelling Sin by C. H. Spurgeon

 

[charity]

'Now then it is no more I that do it,
but sin that dwelleth in me.'
(Rom 7:17)

Hello @marks,

@CharismaticLady and yourself appear to be polarised in regard to the verse which is the subject of your OP (above). You are not alone, for commentators differ as to the true meaning of this passage. Romans 7:13-25, though in one sense complete in itself, is nonetheless part of an argument, and connected with what has gone before.

6:1-14 - Deals with the dominion of sin and death.
6:15-7:6 - Deals with the dominion of law.
7:7-12 - Rectifies any possible misinterpretation of the Apostle's argument, and shows that the law is holy.
7:13-23 - Reveals that because the law is holy, or spiritual, and because the flesh is carnal, it is vain for anyone to look to the law and it's

observance for deliverance; and this is proved by the experience of the Apostle himself.​

Paul's primary object is to defend the law against the charge of any complicity with evil, and to show that, just as the stirring up of dormant sin by the law could not by any means be made to prove that the law itself was sin, so the law is still 'good', even though the flesh is utterly unable to get good from it. This necessitates a further exposition of the relation of indwelling sin to the flesh, and leads to the conclusion that nothing can enable the believer to rise above it's dominion other than a complete abandonment of all efforts by the flesh or in the law, and a complete 'standing' in Christ and in the Spirit.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[marks]

Isn't it the meaning of Romans 7:17 about indwelling sin you are wanting to point to?

No, what I'm point to is the thing I keep saying . . . the title of the thread . . . the OP itself, this:

How is it that Paul says, "It is no more I, but sin that lives in me"? Do you see where he says, No more I? This says it was him, and now it's not. How do you account for this? That he was the one doing the evil, and then he isn't the one doing the evil? What does this mean to you?

This is a very specific point.

Much love!

 

[marks]

@marks I went and searched for one of C.H. Spurgeon's teaching on indwelling sin. Here is the link if you care to read his sermon.
Indwelling Sin by C. H. Spurgeon

If only people believed in shorter paragraphs!!

Much love!

 

[marks]

@CharismaticLady and yourself appear to be polarised in regard to the verse which is the subject of your OP (above).

I think the disagreement between @CharismaticLady and myself is more along the lines of that she disputes there is any vestige of the lusts of the flesh remaining within us, asserting that the true born again person will not want to, and will not sin.

I believe what we experience as the desires for evil things are the desires of our flesh, while our spirit born of God only desires good.

She asserts sinlessness, or rather, what she calls "willful sin", that any "willfully committed sin" shows we are not born again, or that we are no longer born again.

This verse, if taken for exactly what it says, shows in a very simple and clear statement that we are now someone new, but who still remains with the one who is old. We are the spirit children of God, righteous, as He is, but we are living in flesh that is corrupted by sin, and remains corrupted by sin.

Paul's primary object is to defend the law against the charge of any complicity with evil, and to show that, just as the stirring up of dormant sin by the law could not by any means be made to prove that the law itself was sin, so the law is still 'good', even though the flesh is utterly unable to get good from it. This necessitates a further exposition of the relation of indwelling sin to the flesh, and leads to the conclusion that nothing can enable the believer to rise above it's dominion other than a complete abandonment of all efforts by the flesh or in the law, and a complete 'standing' in Christ and in the Spirit.

Complete abandonment, yes, I like that wording!

The flesh is unredeemable, completely corrupted, while the new man, the spirit child of God, is competely redeemed.

For me this understanding that sin is entirely a product of the flesh, and I am not the flesh, this is what helps me to put into practice control over sin, and fighting against the temptations of sin.

"I want" to (some evil thing)" is a flat out lie! "I" don't want! I want righteousness! It's an imposter, a usurper, a pretender, that's who wants evil! Not me.

Much love!

 

[101G]

I believe what we experience as the desires for evil things are the desires of our flesh, while our spirit born of God only desires good.

BINGO, you hit the nail on the HEAD there. the problem is with the flesh, 1 Corinthians 9:26 "I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:"
1 Corinthians 9:27 "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[CharismaticLady]

No, what I'm point to is the thing I keep saying . . . the title of the thread . . . the OP itself, this:

How is it that Paul says, "It is no more I, but sin that lives in me"? Do you see where he says, No more I? This says it was him, and now it's not. How do you account for this? That he was the one doing the evil, and then he isn't the one doing the evil? What does this mean to you?

This is a very specific point.

Much love!

His MIND is the "I" He KNOWS the laws. But he could not help himself. The FLESH was more powerful than his mind. The "I" had no choice. Sin won. Sin was more powerful

Now those with the Spirit find that the Spirit subdues the flesh, so that the FLESH is no longer more powerful than the mind. Now we are free to choose. But we must choose carefully, and stay on the path toward salvation. Stay a slave of righteousness. It is easy, just follow your conscience. That is where the Holy Spirit leads us. Not in the mind, but in the heart where the laws are written. When you walk in the Spirit, your flesh is subdued completely. So stay in the Spirit.

Romans 6:15-16
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Hebrews 10:26-31 and 2 Peter 1:9 shows us that our past sins were died for and thus cleansed. If we sin willfully after this what more sacrifice is there to cleanse our future willful sins? The wages of willful sins of lawlessness is still death.

 

[marks]

His MIND is the "I" He KNOWS the laws. But he could not help himself. The FLESH was more powerful than his mind. The "I" had no choice. Sin won. Sin was more powerful

What I don't understand from your response is what was it that Paul was, that is says, "It is no more I"? What was Paul before that he stopped being? What had he become? And why does he say it's no longer him that sins, instead, that it is sin which lives in him? What changed? From what, to what?

Much love!

 

[Heart2Soul]

What I don't understand from your response is what was it that Paul was, that is says, "It is no more I"? What was Paul before that he stopped being? What had he become? And why does he say it's no longer him that sins, instead, that it is sin which lives in him? What changed? From what, to what?

Much love!

He became a new creature in Christ....not of the flesh but of the spirit. He is born again...
John 1 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¹² But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
¹³ Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
So now He is a son of God...but temporarily must dwell in the corrupt flesh born of the seed of Adam and cursed by God to die.

Edit: So technically his mind is renewed (spiritual not carnal), he has a new heart (a heart of compassion), he is baptized with the Holy Spirit....the flesh is not baptized...only his spirit....so basically he is a separate entity from the flesh.

 

[CharismaticLady]

He became a new creature in Christ....not of the flesh but of the spirit. He is born again...
John 1 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¹² But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
¹³ Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
So now He is a son of God...but temporarily must dwell in the corrupt flesh born of the seed of Adam and cursed by God to die.

He wasn't a "new creature" in Romans 7:17. That was Old Covenant before receiving the Spirit so he wasn't born again yet.

 

[Billy Evmur]

How could Paul possibly call upon us to be holy, to put to death sin in our members if he himself were still "a slave" to sin in his members Romans 7 is written to those who know the law.

 

[marks]

How could Paul possibly call upon us to be holy, to put to death sin in our members if he himself were still "a slave" to sin in his members Romans 7 is written to those who know the law.

Because in Christ we have complete power over our flesh.

Part of renewing the mind is about becoming consistent in thinking that way.

Much love!

 

[marks]

He became a new creature in Christ....not of the flesh but of the spirit. He is born again...
John 1 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¹² But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
¹³ Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
So now He is a son of God...but temporarily must dwell in the corrupt flesh born of the seed of Adam and cursed by God to die.

Edit: So technically his mind is renewed (spiritual not carnal), he has a new heart (a heart of compassion), he is baptized with the Holy Spirit....the flesh is not baptized...only his spirit....so basically he is a separate entity from the flesh.

Exactly!!

 

[Billy Evmur]

Because in Christ we have complete power over our flesh.

Part of renewing the mind is about becoming consistent in thinking that way.

Much love!

Then you have ceased from sin altogether ... yet you think Paul hadn't ?

 

[marks]

Then you have ceased from sin altogether ... yet you think Paul hadn't ?

No, that's not what I'm saying.

Galatians 5, the flesh lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh, so you cannot do what you want. Which is to say, I think, that we remain in conflict with our corrupt flesh as long as we live, and God will continue to grow us the whole time. But to the extent that we can maintain our focus trusting in Jesus, and rejecting the lies of the flesh, we can walk overcoming. Be it to me according to my faith! Oh Lord! Increase my faith!!

To which Jesus replies . . . obey me, expecting that you CAN walk on water.

I still look at the waves, and sink!

I don't want to give the impression I've ceased from sin, sin is altogether to close to me!! Though I recognize that God doesn't see me "through Jesus colored glasses", pretending I'm something I'm not. He sees me as I truly am, His child, righteous by virtue of birth, justified by death, alive in resurrection, and He loves me!

Even though I live in rotten flesh! Even though I still let it do it's works! He's training me. He is SO patient! Thankfully! But His training is effective, after all, He made me, and knows every last little thing about me. So much better than I do!

And in this righteousness which comes from God, I boldly approach.

Much love!

 

[marks]

How could Paul possibly call upon us to be holy, to put to death sin in our members if he himself were still "a slave" to sin in his members Romans 7 is written to those who know the law.

Romans 7:21-25
21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I think what he is saying here is that his flesh remains corrupted and is a slave to sin, a thought he will echo in the next chapter is saying that the flesh is hostile to God, cannot please God, and cannot keep God's law. That doesn't change. The flesh remains corrupt, and it's works corruption.

However, being born from God, a new creation, we've been delivered from that body of death.

Being born of God, His children, we are recreated righteous, inhabitable by God. This new creation, the new man, always thinks/wants/does righteousness. That's his nature, patterned after God Himself (Eph. 4:24).

So in the inner man, the real me, the new me, I always serve God. But there remains the opportunity for the corruption of the flesh to show, if I fail to direct my thoughts according to God's Word, and my knowledge of Him. The fleshy thoughts can get through and get acted on, anger, lust, fear, pick your flavor of sin.

Paul said "I beat my body to keep it subjected", something like that! Maybe if I had more his discipline I'd have more his testimony!

But again, be it to you according to your believing. What is true? What is the true reality? We are born of God, with His nature, and His great and precious promises.

Much love!

 

[Heart2Soul]

He wasn't a "new creature" in Romans 7:17. That was Old Covenant before receiving the Spirit so he wasn't born again yet.

Well that's how I perceive it. The cross reference didn't quote any OT...I think I have to stick with this....I humbly agree to disagree...but I still love ya sister!

 

[Heart2Soul]

How could Paul possibly call upon us to be holy, to put to death sin in our members if he himself were still "a slave" to sin in his members Romans 7 is written to those who know the law.

We are to daily crucify the flesh, daily pray and put on our spiritual armor, resist the devil and he will flee, resist temptation, trust in Him for where we are weak He is strong, seek Him daily....read the Word!