Silence Of Women

[Selene]

What's funny is that while you Catholics supposedly say the Pope's purpose is to keep the RCC doctrine and teachings preserved and uniform, another Catholic on here last week said that highest form of true love was forgiveness.
LOL

Twist, ignore, distort, and change based upon the argument of the day, eh?

What is wrong with saying that forgiveness is a high form of love? Do you not know that when Jesus sacrificed Himself on the cross to save us, He also forgave the sins of those who killed Him? Along with His sacrifice came forgiveness of sins. Did you not know that?

Instead of mocking Catholics, why don't you just tell us your version since you think you know more than us. So tell us then, what do you say is true love since you obviously think it has nothing to do with sacrificing yourself to save others and nothing to do with forgiveness?

Jesus sacrificed Himself on the cross as the Lamb of God so that our sins could be forgiven. This is how much He loved us. So, tell us your version of "true love" that you think is much higher than what Jesus did on the cross.

 

[TexUs]

The topic of "true love" doesn't really interest me because instead of pulling my definitions from a Hollywood movie I'll (*shocking!*) pull them from the Bible out of 1 Corinthians 13.

One of your "pros" of the Catholic church was the uniform doctrine, that the Pope is entrusted to keep.
And yet we have Catholics, even on this board, with non-uniform doctrine.
The left doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

 

[Selene]

The topic of "true love" doesn't really interest me because instead of pulling my definitions from a Hollywood movie I'll (*shocking!*) pull them from the Bible out of 1 Corinthians 13.

In other words, you cannot find any form of "true love" that is much higher than what Jesus did for us at the cross. Do you honestly think that 1 Corinthians 13, which says "love is kind, love is patient...." is much higher and greater than Jesus' sacrificing His own life to save us and to forgive our sins?

And for your information, I did not take out my definition from any Hollywood movie:

John 15:13 Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Did you not know that Jesus laid down His life for us??????????

One of your "pros" of the Catholic church was the uniform doctrine, that the Pope is entrusted to keep.
And yet we have Catholics, even on this board, with non-uniform doctrine.
The left doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

And what has this have to do with the discussion under this thread? Why do you bring up the Catholic Church when the Catholic Church has nothing to do with this thread?

 

[TexUs]

In other words, you cannot find any form of "true love" that is much higher than what Jesus did for us at the cross. Do you honestly think that 1 Corinthians 13, which says "love is kind, love is patient...." is much higher and greater than Jesus' sacrificing His own life to save us and to forgive our sins?

The thing is... Christ fulfilled and lived EVERYTHING in 1 Corinthians 13, the plethora of definitions.
The Bible does not have "Love is forgiveness" in 1 Corinthians 13 does it? True love, is not so simple.

And what has this have to do with the discussion under this thread? Why do you bring up the Catholic Church when the Catholic Church has nothing to do with this thread?

Would you prefer me to start a new thread?

 

[Foreigner]

"Why do you bring up the Catholic Church when the Catholic Church has nothing to do with this thread?" - Selen

-- Really? And just how many female priests are there?

 

[Selene]

The thing is... Christ fulfilled and lived EVERYTHING in 1 Corinthians 13, the plethora of definitions.
The Bible does not have "Love is forgiveness" in 1 Corinthians 13 does it? True love, is not so simple.

Well, for your information, I did not take out my definition from any Hollywood movie:

John 15:13 Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Did you not know that Jesus Christ was the sacrificial Lamb of God who laid down His life for the forgiveness of sins in order to redeem us? You could not conclude for yourself and from your own common sense and reasoning that "love is forgiveness?" You did not know that Christ was the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world? And He took away the sins of the world by laying down His life? How was it possible that you did not know all this? :unsure:

"Why do you bring up the Catholic Church when the Catholic Church has nothing to do with this thread?" - Selen

-- Really? And just how many female priests are there?

You tell me. How many females priests do you see in the Bible? Name me one female priest that you see in the Bible.

 

[TexUs]

Did you not know that Jesus Christ was the sacrificial Lamb of God who laid down His life for the forgiveness of sins in order to redeem us? You could not conclude for yourself and from your own common sense and reasoning that "love is forgiveness?" You did not know that Christ was the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world? And He took away the sins of the world by laying down His life? How was it possible that you did not know all this? :unsure:

Of course I know all that, but love is not defined solely by forgiveness, it is not "the highest love". 1 Corinthians 13 defines love.

Well, for your information, I did not take out my definition from any Hollywood movie:

John 15:13 Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Hmmm, what was the point of this passage in John? Whose love is being modeled here?
[sup]9[/sup] “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. [sup]10[/sup] If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. [sup]11[/sup] I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. [sup]12[/sup] My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. [sup]13[/sup] Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. [sup]14[/sup] You are my friends if you do what I command. [sup]15[/sup] I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. [sup]16[/sup] You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. [sup]17[/sup] This is my command: Love each other.

Whose love? Christ's love. HE is the example in v13, which you quoted, not Jack laying down his life for Rose.
In fact, Christ even narrows this down and tells us who his friends are: those who do what he commands. IE, Christians. This true love can only exist inside of Christians- not the secular world (Jack and Rose). This is obviously one reason for Paul's comments on being unequally yoked and is also why I think your Titanic example is quite honestly, ignorant.


His love, you notice, is also defined more than just "laying down one's life"... It's "as I have loved you"- this encompasses Christ's ENTIRE life!

 

[Foreigner]

"You tell me. How many females priests do you see in the Bible? Name me one female priest that you see in the Bible." - Selene

- How many statues were we told to kiss the feet of in the Bible?
- How many times are we told we should pray to the dead saints for intercession in the Bible?
- Where in the Bible does it say that what is done in the Catholic mass actually transforms the bread and wine to Jesus' body and blood?
- Where in the Bible does it say that Mary never had any children after Jesus?
- Where in the Bible does it say to pray to Mary for intercession?
- Where in the Bible does it state that Mary was taken to heaven bodily and did not die, her corpse rotting in the ground?
- Where in the Bible does it mention Purgatory?
- Where in the Bible does it mention Limbo?
- Where in the Bible does it mention or advocate the Rosary?
- Where in the Bible does it say there should be a Pope and that he is infallible?


So MANY Catholic ideas are not backed up by scripture so excuse me if I laugh when you demand to know where in the Bible it says something is accurate before you will accept it. :lol:

Perhaps if it was in the movie, "Titanic"...

 

[Selene]

Of course I know all that, but love is not defined solely by forgiveness, it is not "the highest love". 1 Corinthians 13 defines love.

Hmmm, what was the point of this passage in John? Whose love is being modeled here?
[sup]9[/sup] “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. [sup]10[/sup] If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. [sup]11[/sup] I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. [sup]12[/sup] My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. [sup]13[/sup] Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. [sup]14[/sup] You are my friends if you do what I command. [sup]15[/sup] I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. [sup]16[/sup] You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. [sup]17[/sup] This is my command: Love each other.

Whose love? Christ's love. HE is the example in v13, which you quoted, not Jack laying down his life for Rose.
In fact, Christ even narrows this down and tells us who his friends are: those who do what he commands. IE, Christians. This true love can only exist inside of Christians- not the secular world (Jack and Rose). This is obviously one reason for Paul's comments on being unequally yoked and is also why I think your Titanic example is quite honestly, ignorant.


His love, you notice, is also defined more than just "laying down one's life"... It's "as I have loved you"- this encompasses Christ's ENTIRE life!

This is the reason for the purpose of my example to begin with. The problem with man is that they do not know what "true love" is. For you, it is NOT forgiveness. How you came to that conclusion....I do not know. For some, it is the kind of love that Christ gave to us by dying on the cross to redeem mankind and to forgive sins. Still, others true love has to do with kindness....etc. The list can go on. And here we are arguing over it. The greatest love that anyone can give is their life...the kind of love that Christ displayed.

It is so easy for one to say "love your neighbors and love your enemies," but how many of us are willing to sacrifice our life to save an enemy? The Bible tells us how to love (1 John 3:16). We know that Christ truely loved all sinners because He gave His life for sinners. If we say that we love our neighbors, are we willing to give our life for our neighbors? If we say that we love our enemies, are we willing to give our life to save our enemies? If we say we forgive the people who hurt us, are we willing to lay down our life for them as well? It is so easy to say "I love you" but really.....how many of us can lay down our lives to show it.

1 John 3:16 The way we came to know love was that He laid down His life for us; so we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.

 

[TexUs]

This is the reason for the purpose of my example to begin with. The problem with man is that they do not know what "true love" is.

You're exactly right. That's why I let the Bible define it and not Titanic.

It is so easy for one to say "love your neighbors and love your enemies," but how many of us are willing to sacrifice our life to save an enemy?

Is that what the Bible said or are you adding to it again?
[sup]13[/sup] Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. [sup]14[/sup] You are my friends if you do what I command.
It doesn't say "enemy" here. Are you so indoctrinated with the Catholic faith that you can't even see what you're doing? You just twisted Scripture- blatantly, at that. Did you not even notice doing it, or are you twisting it on purpose?

 

[Selene]

"You tell me. How many females priests do you see in the Bible? Name me one female priest that you see in the Bible." - Selene

- How many statues were we told to kiss the feet of in the Bible?
- How many times are we told we should pray to the dead saints for intercession in the Bible?
- Where in the Bible does it say that what is done in the Catholic mass actually transforms the bread and wine to Jesus' body and blood?
- Where in the Bible does it say that Mary never had any children after Jesus?
- Where in the Bible does it say to pray to Mary for intercession?
- Where in the Bible does it state that Mary was taken to heaven bodily and did not die, her corpse rotting in the ground?
- Where in the Bible does it mention Purgatory?
- Where in the Bible does it mention Limbo?
- Where in the Bible does it say there should be a Pope and that is infallible?
.

The very fact that there are no female priests in the Bible shows that we follow this in the Bible. We follow everything in the Bible and the Apostolic tradition that was handed down by the Apostles themselves. As St. Paul says: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle." (2 Thessalonians 2:14). Note that St. Paul was not referring to the traditions of man, but to the traditons of the Apostles.

 

[Foreigner]

"but how many of us are willing to sacrifice our life to save an enemy?" - Selene

-- I must have missed it. Where in the Bible does it say to lay down your life for an enemy?

 

[TexUs]

The very fact that there are no female priests in the Bible shows that we follow this in the Bible. We follow everything in the Bible and the Apostolic tradition that was handed down by the Apostles themselves. As St. Paul says: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle." (2 Thessalonians 2:14). Note that St. Paul was not referring to the traditions of man, but to the traditons of the Apostles.

Your problem is time and time again the RCC has been proven (I asked before in another thread: do you guys just gloss over and ignore the whole indulgences thing?) to contradict the Bible in many of their "traditions".

The issue crops up when teachings (like Mary not having any other sons) contradicts Biblical teachings. Bible > Teachings of Men.

I do agree with you that women should not be in spiritual leadership positions though.

 

[Selene]

You're exactly right. That's why I let the Bible define it and not Titanic.

I also got my definition from the Bible. I just use my own mind, which God gave me, to put it in my own words.

Is that what the Bible said or are you adding to it again?

[sup]13[/sup] Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. [sup]14[/sup] You are my friends if you do what I command.
It doesn't say "enemy" here. Are you so indoctrinated with the Catholic faith that you can't even see what you're doing? You just twisted Scripture- blatantly, at that. Did you not even notice doing it, or are you twisting it on purpose?

Hello? Did Jesus not tell you to love your enemies too? Isn't that also part of His commandment? Did you not know that Jesus said, "what reward will you have if you only love those who love you?" (See Matthew 5:46). Did you not know that Jesus died for everyone? Did you honestly think that He only died for certain people? How is it possible that you did not know this?

Luke 6:27 But I say to you that hear: Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you.

I do agree with you that women should not be in spiritual leadership positions though.

Really? Then why did you bother to ask me about female priests?

 

[Foreigner]

The very fact that there are no female priests in the Bible shows that we follow this in the Bible. We follow everything in the Bible and the Apostolic tradition that was handed down by the Apostles themselves. As St. Paul says: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle." (2 Thessalonians 2:14). Note that St. Paul was not referring to the traditions of man, but to the traditons of the Apostles.

-- So.......
You are saying that the Apostles themselves said we should pray the rosary, Mary didn't die or have additional children after Jesus, we should pray to Mary or the dead saints for intercession, said the mass LITERALLY turns bread and wine into the actually body and blood of Christ, there is a place called Purgatory, a place called Limbo, and that there should be an ongoing position of Pope and he will be infallible?

You will also note that Paul said traditions "which you have learned" putting it in the past tense. That means the traditions in place AT THAT TIME.

Care to show where ANY of the things I mentioned were practiced traditions in place AT THAT TIME?

And since when is it okay to follow a tradition that is either not supported, or is outright contrary to the Bible?

Honestly Selene, you are doing your cause more harm than good.

Your "Titanic" argument was better...

 

[Selene]

Put is this way, my brother TexUs, a true Christian is not supposed to have any enemies because God called us to love everyone. Your neighbor is "everyone" around you.

You will also note that Paul said traditions "which you have learned" putting it in the past tense. That means the traditions in place AT THAT TIME.

Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by OUR epistle."

It says, "whether by word or by OUR epistle." St. Paul was referring to a tradition that was taught by them by their words or by their epistle, and not by anyone else. It is an "apostolic" tradition, not a tradition from the past.

 

[Foreigner]

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by OUR epistle." - Selene

-- You will note: "have learned." Meaning past tense.

You say: "St. Paul was referring to a tradition that was taught by them by their words or by their epistle, and not by anyone else. It is an "apostolic" tradition, not a tradition from the past."


So again I ask:

"You are saying that the Apostles themselves said we should pray the rosary, Mary didn't die or have additional children after Jesus, we should pray to Mary or the dead saints for intercession, said the mass LITERALLY turns bread and wine into the actually body and blood of Christ, there is a place called Purgatory, a place called Limbo, and that there should be an ongoing position of Pope and he will be infallible?

You will also note that Paul said traditions "which you have learned" putting it in the past tense. That means the traditions in place AT THAT TIME.

Care to show where ANY of the things I mentioned were practiced traditions in place AT THAT TIME?"


-- The question is simple. Where and when did the actual Apostles encourage these things?
Paul was talking about the things accepted AT THAT TIME.
Remember, he said "HAVE LEARNED."

Having spent the first 22 years of my life a Catholic I have learned that several of these practices were established/created CENTURIES after the original Apostles and Paul walked the earth and not based on anything they supported or encouraged.

Meatless Friday? Give me a break.

As I said, your "Titanic argument was better...

 

[TexUs]

Hello? Did Jesus not tell you to love your enemies too? Isn't that also part of His commandment? Did you not know that Jesus said, "what reward will you have if you only love those who love you?" (See Matthew 5:46). Did you not know that Jesus died for everyone? Did you honestly think that He only died for certain people? How is it possible that you did not know this?

Yes, however, it is actually DEFINED in your prior quoted passages by FRIENDS that OBEY CHRIST'S COMMANDS. There is no room left for "enemies" in that passage. Thus that passage cannot possibly include "greatest love" for enemies.


Now what kind of love is Christ talking about in Matthew? We see that this includes praying for them. We see this includes greeting and being accepting of others. We see that this includes doing these things even if we get nothing in return (isn't that love without conditions??)


We don't have enough information in Matthew to really make much of a distinction but the fact remains that the prior passage was defined specifically, and enemies do not fit the bill.

Really? Then why did you bother to ask me about female priests?

Check who said what because I didn't ask you about female priests.

-- The question is simple. Where and when did the actual Apostles encourage these things?

They can't even prove Peter as the first Pope (which is kindof central to their entire theory, isn't it?) from SECULAR and HUMAN writings much less Biblically, as you point out: most of these arise centuries later... I don't think you'll ever get an answer.

 

[Selene]

Check who said what because I didn't ask you about female priests.

I apologize TexUs. I stand corrected. You and I have posted back and forth under this thread that when Foreigner came in, I was not even aware of it and thought it was you.

They can't even prove Peter as the first Pope (which is kindof central to their entire theory, isn't it?) from SECULAR and HUMAN writings much less Biblically, as you point out: most of these arise centuries later... I don't think you'll ever get an answer.

My brother, the Russian Orthodox Church can trace their lineage to the Apostle Andrew, and we can trace ours to the Apostle Peter. You have the internet. Do your own research.

 

[TexUs]

My brother, the Russian Orthodox Church can trace their lineage to the Apostle Andrew, and we can trace ours to the Apostle Peter. You have the internet. Do your own research.

In other words you can't find it yourself.
I've asked Catholics no less than half a dozen times both here and the real world and I've never had one bring me evidence of anyone of Peter's day considering him a Pope.