Where Jesus Will Return

[Duckybill]

There seems to be much confusion about who Israel is. Many claim that the Christian Church is Israel, that the Nation of Israel is no longer God's chosen Nation, that the Christian Church has taken the place of Israel in God's plan. If this is true then why will Jesus return to Israel?

Zechariah 14:2-4 (NASB)
[sup]2 [/sup]For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. [sup]3 [/sup]Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. [sup]4 [/sup]In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east;

To say that God has forsaken Israel doesn't make sense if His return will be to Jerusalem. I say that Israel is still very special to God. Yes, the Church is special to God, but the Church is not Israel. Israel was set aside temporarily, not permanently. The rise of Israel from the dead is a warning from God that His return is very near.

 

[veteran]

There seems to be much confusion about who Israel is. Many claim that the Christian Church is Israel, that the Nation of Israel is no longer God's chosen Nation, that the Christian Church has taken the place of Israel in God's plan. If this is true then why will Jesus return to Israel?

Zechariah 14:2-4 (NASB)
[sup]2 [/sup]For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. [sup]3 [/sup]Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. [sup]4 [/sup]In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east;

To say that God has forsaken Israel doesn't make sense if His return will be to Jerusalem. I say that Israel is still very special to God. Yes, the Church is special to God, but the Church is not Israel. Israel was set aside temporarily, not permanently. The rise of Israel from the dead is a warning from God that His return is very near.

True that God has not, and will not ever, forget His chosen Israel. But the New Covenant by Christ Jesus did make a change with Israel.

Eph 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
(KJV)

Notice this is New Testament teaching from apostle Paul in Ephesians 2. To Paul, the "commonwealth of Israel" was still very much alive, and still included "the covenants of promise" from God.

God has blinded many of the seed of Israel so His Salvation could go also to the Gentiles. So now, God's true Israel is about the New Covenant, and just who can be included within that New Covenant? All that believe on God's Promised Saviour Jesus Christ. The latter chapters of Isaiah declare the seed of Israel will be gathered back to the lands of promise given their fathers, but along with believing Gentiles. And that is God's Church now under Jesus Christ. But those even of the seed that still refuse Christ Jesus will be cut off, like Paul taught in Romans 9 through 11.

 

[Martin W.]

There seems to be much confusion about who Israel is. Many claim that the Christian Church is Israel, that the Nation of Israel is no longer God's chosen Nation, that the Christian Church has taken the place of Israel in God's plan. If this is true then why will Jesus return to Israel?

Zechariah 14:2-4 (NASB)
[sup]2 [/sup]For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. [sup]3 [/sup]Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. [sup]4 [/sup]In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east;

To say that God has forsaken Israel doesn't make sense if His return will be to Jerusalem. I say that Israel is still very special to God. Yes, the Church is special to God, but the Church is not Israel. Israel was set aside temporarily, not permanently. The rise of Israel from the dead is a warning from God that His return is very near.

You are right about Israel , and you are right about confused Christians who do not understand that in the big picture Israel is still central in God's focus.

We gentile Christians must remember that we are a branch grafted into the olive tree.

We are not the tree. Israel is the tree.

We are now entering an era where God will turn his focus back to Israel and have compassion on her. She will greatly expand her borders and have a period of peace and security.

It is expected that this information will be made public in the next several months.

Prophecy is unfolding in a new way.

A. Martin.

 

[bud02]

You are right about Israel , and you are right about confused Christians who do not understand that in the big picture Israel is still central in God's focus.

We gentile Christians must remember that we are a branch grafted into the olive tree.

We are not the tree. Israel is the tree.

We are now entering an era where God will turn his focus back to Israel and have compassion on her. She will greatly expand her borders and have a period of peace and security.

It is expected that this information will be made public in the next several months.

Prophecy is unfolding in a new way.

A. Martin.

Don't you find your statement a bit contradictory to scripture?
Prophesy unfolding in a new way? I'll stick with Gods way.
Its interesting that christians can read these passages and then read prophesy in regards to Christ return and think that Israel is still a fleshly reference.


Romans 9
[sup]6[/sup] But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, [sup]7[/sup] nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”[sup][b][/sup] [sup]8[/sup] That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. [sup]9[/sup] For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”[sup][c][/sup]

Galatians 3
[sup]26[/sup] For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. [sup]27[/sup] For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [sup]28[/sup] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. [sup]29[/sup] And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Acts 10
[sup]34[/sup] Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. [sup]35[/sup] But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
Acts 15
[sup]6[/sup] Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. [sup]7[/sup] And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. [sup]8[/sup] So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, [sup]9[/sup] and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Do I need to post more NT scriptures? Or can you show me some to support yours? Teach me something. That is not a derogatory statement ether.

 

[veteran]

Do I need to post more NT scriptures? Or can you show me some to support yours? Teach me something. That is not a derogatory statement ether.

Though I don't agree with some things Martin says (nor he with me), he is correct about literal Israel still being central to God's Plan of Salvation.


Rom 11:1-5
1 I say then, Hath God cast away His people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed Thy prophets, and digged down Thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? "I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(KJV)


The confusion is with thinking that Jews of the "house of Judah" are the only literal Israelites.

I just covered a prophecy in the 'Ten Lost Tribes Theory' thread from the Book of Hosea of how God would scatter the ten tribes of Israel and call them Loammi (not My people), and then God would lead them back to Him and call them Ammi (my people), which is a prophecy that Apostles Paul and Peter quoted in relation to The Gospel going to the Gentiles (1 Pet.2; Rom.11:30-32; Rom.9:24-25).

The ten tribes of Israel ("house of Israel" in God's Word) fell into Baal worship first, and God scattered them first. They lost their heritage as part of literal Israel while the "house of Judah" (Jews) was yet faithful (Hosea 1). They lost knowledge of God's feast days, the new moons and sabbaths, and went totally into the paganism of Baal. But the "house of Judah" (Jews) did not lose their heritage of God's feast days, sabbaths, etc.

The ten tribes became figurative Gentiles, while scattered among literal Gentiles. When Christ was preached in Asia Minor and in western Europe, the majority of ten tribes left the old Baal idol practices and came back to God under Christ Jesus, along with the Gentiles, and along with some Jews. That's three distinct groups I speak of; literal lost ten tribe Israelites who think they are Gentiles; literal Israelites of Judah (Jews); and literal Gentiles of the nations. When Paul is speaking of Jews and Gentiles in Rom.9:24-25, he is including non-Jew Israelites of the ten lost tribes too, since his quoting is from Hosea which was a prophecy specifically about the ten tribes of Israel. Thus they are included with what Paul is teaching there.

 

[bud02]

Though I don't agree with some things Martin says (nor he with me), he is correct about literal Israel still being central to God's Plan of Salvation.


Rom 11:1-5
1 I say then, Hath God cast away His people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed Thy prophets, and digged down Thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? "I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(KJV)


The confusion is with thinking that Jews of the "house of Judah" are the only literal Israelites.

I appreciate your quick reply and thoughtful evidence. But it looks as tho Paul is pointing to himself as evidence of Gods promise to the Nation of Israel. "see bold" Notice he speaks in the present tense. God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew

I gave 4 verses that I believe clearly indicate my position from the NT. The weight of evidence IMO is still in my camp.
The fact that Israel "the Jewish state" is still in play at the time Paul wrote the letter is evidence of the prophesy Paul is speaking of, the remnant is always visible to God but not so evident to men.

I've been following the lost 10 tribes thread.

 

[veteran]

I appreciate your quick reply and thoughtful evidence. But it looks as tho Paul is pointing to himself as evidence of Gods promise to the Nation of Israel. "see bold" Notice he speaks in the present tense. God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew

I gave 4 verses that I believe clearly indicate my position from the NT. The weight of evidence IMO is still in my camp.
The fact that Israel "the Jewish state" is still in play at the time Paul wrote the letter is evidence of the prophesy Paul is speaking of, the remnant is always visible to God but not so evident to men.

I've been following the lost 10 tribes thread.

Rom 11:1-5
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(KJV)

Paul indeed is... pointing to himself as a literal Israelite. But specifically from the tribe of Benjamin.

Yet there's 12 other tribes of Israel per God's Word though. (13 total, if you count Ephraim and Manasseh as separate tribes). He's not excluding those other tribes, because he mentioned origin as an Israelite of the seed of Abraham.

At the time of Christ's first coming, and that time of Apostle Paul, the Jewish state of Israel in the holy land was about the "house of Judah" (Jews). The majority of Israelites had already been scattered out of the land never to return (even per the Jewish historian Josephus). That's where studying the Old Testament comes in for properly understanding a lot of the New Testament, including what Paul taught there in Romans about literal Israelites, showing that God had not cast off all of literal Israel, but there still remains a remnant according to the election of grace.

This is why Paul would also use the phrase "commonwealth of Israel" in Ephesians 2 about Gentiles that were once strangers to the covenants of promise in Israel, but are now made nigh by believing on Christ Jesus. Paul is confirming that literal Israel is still right in the center of God's Plan of Salvation through His Son. That's especially involving the ten tribes of Israel, not the majority of the Jews which refused Christ at His first coming.

 

[aspen]

Jesus will return when the Father decides He will return.

 

[Martin W.]

Don't you find your statement a bit contradictory to scripture?
Prophesy unfolding in a new way? I'll stick with Gods way.

I agree that I said it wrong. I should have said 3000 year old prophecy has unfolded recently.
It has not been made public yet.
The Middle East is a sensitive area and everything has its proper timing.
My best guess is it will be made public around spring 2011
It is as significant (maybe more so) as the re-gathering of Israel in 1948.
God is going to do profound things in Israel.
Once you see the information it will make sense.
It withstands all scrutiny.

Thanks
Martin.

 

[bud02]

I agree that I said it wrong. I should have said 3000 year old prophecy has unfolded recently.
It has not been made public yet.
The Middle East is a sensitive area and everything has its proper timing.
My best guess is it will be made public around spring 2011
It is as significant (maybe more so) as the re-gathering of Israel in 1948.
God is going to do profound things in Israel.
Once you see the information it will make sense.
It withstands all scrutiny.

Thanks
Martin.

Thanks you Martin for clarifying your comment about the subject, I enjoy reading your post threw out the forum.

 

[Duckybill]

We are now entering an era where God will turn his focus back to Israel and have compassion on her. She will greatly expand her borders and have a period of peace and security.

It is expected that this information will be made public in the next several months.

I expect BIG things to happen concerning the Nation of Israel at any time. Israel is still the 'apple of God's eye'. The miracles of the Bible will soon again be manifested on Earth. The God of Israel is still alive. God is soon going to shake this Earth and awaken many sleeping Christians. Modern Christianity is merely a shadow of New Testament Christianity. God will again fight for Israel.