For it is written that Abraham had two sons

Insight · Oct 30, 2011

ABRAHAM’S SEED

GENESIS 21

A correct understanding of Genesis Twenty One will allow all believers the opportunity to comprehend the one true Gospel of the Kingdom. Truly the Covenant made with Abraham and his seed will give you the knowledge and faith concerning “things concerning the Kingdom of God.” Act 28:31

Without such "things" how shall we take part?

This study could be also be considered along side another fruitful discussion thread found at Hath God cast away His people?

The allegory:

“Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.” Galatians 4:21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31

Paul here teaches that within these events is a pattern (or type) of things to come. Exactly how Yahweh will deal with spiritual and natural seeds of Abraham will herein revealed. This section of Scripture is considered an allegory; the historical events foreshadow the future of the congregation of God in relation to the nation of Israel, to the setting up of the Kingdom of God on earth.

Gen. 12:1-3 “Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee:

(1) And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

(2) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee:

(3) and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.”

I will make of thee a great nation: This refers to the ultimate and future establishment of the natural seed of Abraham—the Jews—as a great nation in the earth.
I will bless them that bless thee: This refers to a favoured or blessed status among the Gentile peoples and nations that deal kindly with Abraham and his seed.
In thee shall all families of the earth be blessed: This refers to the development of the Abrahamic seed in a spiritual sense; including people of faith from all races, genders, and social backgrounds who embrace the promises made to Abraham.

The magnitude of these words and their significance is worthy of our deepest consideration. Paul reveals that the two incidents are allegorical. That is, the two women and their characteristics, represent two covenants; and the two sons of Abraham by them two seeds, or classes of persons. The Apostle Paul tells us clearly that Jerusalem is the focal point of these two covenants; but in different periods of her history. During her existence as the centre of the Hebrew commonwealth under the constitution at Sinia, she was represented by Hagar the bondwoman; because the covenant from Sinai “gendered to bondage”…But this state of things was only provisional. God did not intend the Hebrew commonwealth to exist in this state forever. It was clear that God had plans for Israel well beyond the Law of Moses. It was determined by God, that the Law of Moses would be abolished, and Israel would be dispersed among the nations. This is shown in the words of “casting out the bondwoman with her son”.

So we find these characters represent both the Old and New as follows.
.

-The Symbols of the allegory-

.

HAGAR —represents the Law given at Mt. Sinai – Old Jerusalem

ISHMAEL —represents the fleshly or natural seed of Abraham –boasting in the law under fleshly descent

SARAH —represents the Abrahamic covenant given before the Law

ISAAC —represents the seed of Abraham according to promise

BEERSHEBA —represents the water of the Word, the Gospel

The allegory is designed for us to compare certain features and striking resemblances which provide greater insight into the coming Kingdom of God on Earth.

In many respects these matters are concealed to those who know not the true Gospel as taught by the Apostles.

At times we may find aspects of the allegory extremely confronting and in no way will I try to temper its message. For this reason some have turned certain aspects of the allegory to lies and confusion.

May Yahweh and His Son bless us in this study?

Insight

brionne · Oct 30, 2011

Im going to give you my take on Pauls words and I dont mean to contradict you, but I really cant see how you read this to mean that the bondwomen still has an inheritence with the heir Isaac.

"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. Paul is saying that the newly found christian church is represented by isaac.

But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. - As Ishmael persecuted Isaac, so too the new christian congregation was being persecuted by the jews....those 'born after the flesh'.

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. Here Paul is saying that it is Ishmael and her mother who will not be heirs with Sarah and her son Isaac. Or in other words, natural isreal will not be heirs of the kingdom with the Christian congregation so even though they were being persecuted, it would not last.

So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.” Paul confirms which woman the congregation belongs too.... to Sarah and therefore they are assured of Gods blessing.

that is my take on it. I see the new christian congregation as isaac and the Jews as Ishmael. Who was the heir of all things? It was Isaac. The heirs of the kingdom then must be the christian congregation. And of course any jew can join themselves to the christian congregation to become heirs of the kingdom too.

Insight · Oct 30, 2011

Pegg said:
Im going to give you my take on Pauls words and I dont mean to contradict you, but I really cant see how you read this to mean that the bondwomen still has an inheritence with the heir Isaac.

"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. Paul is saying that the newly found christian church is represented by isaac.

But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. - As Ishmael persecuted Isaac, so too the new christian congregation was being persecuted by the jews....those 'born after the flesh'.

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. Here Paul is saying that it is Ishmael and her mother who will not be heirs with Sarah and her son Isaac. Or in other words, natural isreal will not be heirs of the kingdom with the Christian congregation so even though they were being persecuted, it would not last.

So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.” Paul confirms which woman the congregation belongs too.... to Sarah and therefore they are assured of Gods blessing.

that is my take on it. I see the new christian congregation as isaac and the Jews as Ishmael. Who was the heir of all things? It was Isaac. The heirs of the kingdom then must be the christian congregation. And of course any jew can join themselves to the christian congregation to become heirs of the kingdom too.

Hi Pegg,

The Allegory is far more reaching than you have presented it above.

Consider your comment: "I see the new christian congregation as isaac and the Jews as Ishmael. Who was the heir of all things? It was Isaac. The heirs of the kingdom then must be the christian congregation. And of course any jew can join themselves to the christian congregation to become heirs of the kingdom too."

This is true in part...its just not all of the truth.

The allegory will certainly reveal this in time.

If God wills.

Insight

veteran · Oct 30, 2011

Insight said:
ABRAHAM’S SEED

GENESIS 21

A correct understanding of Genesis Twenty One will allow all believers the opportunity to comprehend the one true Gospel of the Kingdom. Truly the Covenant made with Abraham and his seed will give you the knowledge and faith concerning “things concerning the Kingdom of God.” Act 28:31

Without such "things" how shall we take part?

This study could be also be considered along side another fruitful discussion thread found at Hath God cast away His people?

The allegory:

Paul here teaches that within these events is a pattern (or type) of things to come. Exactly how Yahweh will deal with spiritual and natural seeds of Abraham will herein revealed. This section of Scripture is considered an allegory; the historical events foreshadow the future of the congregation of God in relation to the nation of Israel, to the setting up of the Kingdom of God on earth.

Gen. 12:1-3 “Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee:

(1) And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

(2) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee:

(3) and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.”

I will make of thee a great nation: This refers to the ultimate and future establishment of the natural seed of Abraham—the Jews—as a great nation in the earth.

I will bless them that bless thee: This refers to a favoured or blessed status among the Gentile peoples and nations that deal kindly with Abraham and his seed.

In thee shall all families of the earth be blessed: This refers to the development of the Abrahamic seed in a spiritual sense; including people of faith from all races, genders, and social backgrounds who embrace the promises made to Abraham.

The magnitude of these words and their significance is worthy of our deepest consideration. Paul reveals that the two incidents are allegorical. That is, the two women and their characteristics, represent two covenants; and the two sons of Abraham by them two seeds, or classes of persons. The Apostle Paul tells us clearly that Jerusalem is the focal point of these two covenants; but in different periods of her history. During her existence as the centre of the Hebrew commonwealth under the constitution at Sinia, she was represented by Hagar the bondwoman; because the covenant from Sinai “gendered to bondage”…But this state of things was only provisional. God did not intend the Hebrew commonwealth to exist in this state forever. It was clear that God had plans for Israel well beyond the Law of Moses. It was determined by God, that the Law of Moses would be abolished, and Israel would be dispersed among the nations. This is shown in the words of “casting out the bondwoman with her son”.

So we find these characters represent both the Old and New as follows.
.
-The Symbols of the allegory-
.
HAGAR —represents the Law given at Mt. Sinai – Old Jerusalem
ISHMAEL —represents the fleshly or natural seed of Abraham –boasting in the law under fleshly descent
SARAH —represents the Abrahamic covenant given before the Law
ISAAC —represents the seed of Abraham according to promise
BEERSHEBA —represents the water of the Word, the Gospel

The allegory is designed for us to compare certain features and striking resemblances which provide greater insight into the coming Kingdom of God on Earth.

In many respects these matters are concealed to those who know not the true Gospel as taught by the Apostles.

At times we may find aspects of the allegory extremely confronting and in no way will I try to temper its message. For this reason some have turned certain aspects of the allegory to lies and confusion.

May Yahweh and His Son bless us in this study?

Insight

Not bad, except parts that you still appear not willing to address, that of the separation between the "house of Israel" (ten tribes under Ephraim) in contrast to the "house of Judah" (Jews).

Isa 11:11-13
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of His people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And He shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
(KJV)

veteran · Oct 30, 2011

Pegg said:
Im going to give you my take on Pauls words and I dont mean to contradict you, but I really cant see how you read this to mean that the bondwomen still has an inheritence with the heir Isaac.

"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. Paul is saying that the newly found christian church is represented by isaac.

But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. - As Ishmael persecuted Isaac, so too the new christian congregation was being persecuted by the jews....those 'born after the flesh'.

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. Here Paul is saying that it is Ishmael and her mother who will not be heirs with Sarah and her son Isaac. Or in other words, natural isreal will not be heirs of the kingdom with the Christian congregation so even though they were being persecuted, it would not last.

So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.” Paul confirms which woman the congregation belongs too.... to Sarah and therefore they are assured of Gods blessing.

that is my take on it. I see the new christian congregation as isaac and the Jews as Ishmael. Who was the heir of all things? It was Isaac. The heirs of the kingdom then must be the christian congregation. And of course any jew can join themselves to the christian congregation to become heirs of the kingdom too.

Truly, the 'unbelieving' Jews are... treated as Ishmael, but that's ONLY IF they refuse to accept The Saviour Christ Jesus.

What of those of Judah that have... ACCEPTED our Lord Jesus Christ? Have they still lost the covenants of promise concerning Israel? God forbid, no. Those instead make up part of that Rom.11:1-5 remnant of Israel according the election of grace.

But there's a matter with this that even many believing Jews still reject, and that's how that remnant under grace of Romans 11:1-5 also includes another part of the seed of Israel, that of a remnant of the ten tribes that were separated from Judah (Jews) long ago, starting at 1 Kings 11. That's why the Isaiah 11:12-13 Scripture makes a distinction between "the outcasts of Israel" vs. "the dispersed of Judah", both to be gathered by Christ Jesus at His coming. We as Gentile believers are not excluded in that gathering, for we will be gathered with them.

Insight · Oct 30, 2011

veteran said:
Not bad, except parts that you still appear not willing to address, that of the separation between the "house of Israel" (ten tribes under Ephraim) in contrast to the "house of Judah" (Jews).

Isa 11:11-13
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of His people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And He shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
(KJV)

[/indent]

Thank you Veteran, we are in awe of the wisdom and skill with which the Word has been delivered to us.

Feel obliged to take part as you see fit.

Insight

veteran said:
But there's a matter with this that even many believing Jews still reject, and that's how that remnant under grace of Romans 11:1-5 also includes another part of the seed of Israel, that of a remnant of the ten tribes that were separated from Judah (Jews) long ago, starting at 1 Kings 11. That's why the Isaiah 11:12-13 Scripture makes a distinction between "the outcasts of Israel" vs. "the dispersed of Judah", both to be gathered by Christ Jesus at His coming. We as Gentile believers are not excluded in that gathering, for we will be gathered with them.

Having studied this subject for many years, I have accumulated considerable material which I look forward to passing on through these studies.

Enjoy.

Insight

Insight · Oct 30, 2011

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. Rom 9:6-9

What I enjoy about the Word of God is how we can be confident in determining a matter, by simply cross-referencing such passages as types, anti-types, parables, allegories. perculiar words etc.

Take this passage for example by Paul in Rom. 9:6,7,8,9 which is quoted directly from Genesis 21.

We need make no assumptions or second guesses as here we are revealed a key to understanding an allegory.

Paul teaches us that Isaac = believers of the Gospel (Jew or Gentile), while Ishmael = unbelieving natural Jews.

I would assume everyone would agree with this interpretation?

Insight · Oct 30, 2011

It is written, “In Isaac shall thy seed be called”

To means that Jesus Christ will come from him, and by faith all who believe the promises, and put on Christ, will be constituted as being “in Isaac”. Another Bible term for this is “the children of the promise,” and “counted for the seed,” who by the faith of Abraham will inherit the land and the Earth forever.

“Thy seed” I understand in two ways

Referring to Jesus Christ
Those believers who are found to be “in” him

And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken. For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him. Gen 21:1,2

A hidden gem of truth for us to behold is found within these marvellous words.

Three (3) times the opening verses clearly states the seed which is to born to Sarah is conceived and brought forth “as he said,”…..even “as God had spoken.”

Is this we understand that the seed of Abraham is one of promise and is begotten by the “spoken” word of God.
And not by a natural Lineage. Heb 1:1,2,3NET

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Pet 1:22NET 1 Pet 1:23NET

Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. James 1:18NET

This speaks wonderfully to the firstfruits example found Hath God cast away His people? You may like to search on firstfruits.

As Isaac is a firstfruit of Abraham as Jesus Christ is a firstfruit of Yahweh.

If we expanded this view out somewhat we find the following symbols and their implied spiritual meanings.

ABRAHAM - Represented Yahweh as a righteous Faithful Father
ISAAC - Represented the “Son of Promise” Jesus Christ – as foreseen in the Mind of Yahweh from the beginning
JACOB - Name changed to Israel who represents the multitudinous offspring i.e “the Children of Promise” “twelve tribes”

The above was a slight deviation but one worthy of consideration.

In the Masters Service.

Insight · Oct 31, 2011

Gen 21:3 And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac.

Gen 21:4 And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight days old, as God had commanded him.

“Circumcision” is an extremely powerful and important principle: The true seed of Abraham is known by these words in "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."Rom 2:28,29

This principle was unwavering with Abraham. No uncircumcised person was allowed to be a member of Abraham’s family…only those who are circumcised persons can inherit the promises! This may alarm some. Of course while the physical act was essential we know the true spirit of the token was of the heart. Circumcision of the flesh is an outward sign of Abraham’s circumcision of the heart; and everyone who would inherit with faithful Abraham must be circumcised of heart likewise…in putting on Christ, he is “circumcised with the circumcision made without hands by the circumcision of Christ” (Col. 2:11,12; Rom. 2:28,29)

Though the seed of Abraham had to be circumcised, the principle behind the physical action was the expectation. We are not surprised to see the contention between the natural Jews and the gentile converts during the time of the Apostles (Acts 15:1-7, 24; Gal 5:1-3; 6:12-13).

“And (Abraham) received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.” Rom 4:11,12,13

whirlwind · Oct 31, 2011

Insight said:
Paul teaches us that Isaac = believers of the Gospel (Jew or Gentile), while Ishmael = unbelieving natural Jews.

I would assume everyone would agree with this interpretation?

No. That isn't correct. Ishmael are not natural Jews...whether believing or unbelieving.

.

Vengle · Oct 31, 2011

The children of the bond woman clearly are said in the last few verses of that chapter (which by the way is quoting OT prophecy) not to have a sharing with the son of the free woman. That free woman's son is Jesus.

The only way that the children under bondage can have a sharing is to be lead out of that bondage (that captivity) and be made sons of the free woman.

And all those promises are fulfilled to Abraham through his seed singular, as in Christ, for apart from Christ they are dead, killed by the Law.

It goads me that any generation would think itself so special that it is the sole possessor of the choice ones of God. As I see it, those who lived closest to Adam had far less distortion of the truth by man to deal with. The loyal of God closer to Adam had to have had access to direct knowledge of Adam which through time has been near lost if not totally lost to us. They were in a far better position to understand than we ourselves and to exclude them from God’s election of his choice ones from this earth is just shear lunacy.

We see that kind of arrogance displayed of the natural Israel. And indeed that was a big part of its purpose, to show us that. Indeed through their history that belief that God’s working with them made them special was their downfall. They were worked with as a special peoples but that merely means as compared to God’s not working at that time with the other nations. So they were only special with regards to the other nations not being at that time worked with.

Of course God would have a fondness of the child he is working with. Did that make them better as they thought? Did Jacob’s fondness of Joseph make him better than his brothers before he was sold into slavery? Only in the evil of the minds of his scheming brothers. Was Benjamin afterward better than his brothers just because Jacob had special fondness for him? It seems Joseph’s scheming brothers had learned at least to some extent not to think it was so. But the seed that came out of their loins somehow continued their first attitude.

That fleshly nation was only formed for the reason that the common man needed to be taught of and convicted of his sin, and to get us to the seed of promise, physically, mentally, and emotionally. But the elected ones of God have always been here from the beginning and already achieved that spiritually by faith. They already accepted that they were guilty and they already looked forward to that promised seed, understanding what he meant to them.

Jude 1:14-15 “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

So then you might argue that Paul was elect and yet he did not know, for he plainly said that he would not have know lust lest the Law had told him. (Romans 7:7)

How easy we forget what Paul also said, Romans 1:18-21 “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”

Having read what Jude told us about Enoch at Jude 1:14-15, do we not now understand what Paul said at 1 Timothy 1:9-11 “Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.”

I think the evidence shows that most of us are not smarter today and it is no wonder we cannot put the picture together properly. We are a generation particularly ignorant through arrogance.

Insight · Oct 31, 2011

Vengle said:
The children of the bond woman clearly are said in the last few verses of that chapter (which by the way is quoting OT prophecy) not to have a sharing with the son of the free woman. That free woman's son is Jesus.

The only way that the children under bondage can have a sharing is to be lead out of that bondage (that captivity) and be made sons of the free woman.

And all those promises are fulfilled to Abraham through his seed singular, as in Christ, for apart from Christ they are dead, killed by the Law.

It goads me that any generation would think itself so special that it is the sole possessor of the choice ones of God. As I see it, those who lived closest to Adam had far less distortion of the truth by man to deal with. The loyal of God closer to Adam had to have had access to direct knowledge of Adam which through time has been near lost if not totally lost to us. They were in a far better position to understand than we ourselves and to exclude them from God’s election of his choice ones from this earth is just shear lunacy.

We see that kind of arrogance displayed of the natural Israel. And indeed that was a big part of its purpose, to show us that. Indeed through their history that belief that God’s working with them made them special was their downfall. They were worked with as a special peoples but that merely means as compared to God’s not working at that time with the other nations. So they were only special with regards to the other nations not being at that time worked with.

Of course God would have a fondness of the child he is working with. Did that make them better as they thought? Did Jacob’s fondness of Joseph make him better than his brothers before he was sold into slavery? Only in the evil of the minds of his scheming brothers. Was Benjamin afterward better than his brothers just because Jacob had special fondness for him? It seems Joseph’s scheming brothers had learned at least to some extent not to think it was so. But the seed that came out of their loins somehow continued their first attitude.

That fleshly nation was only formed for the reason that the common man needed to be taught of and convicted of his sin, and to get us to the seed of promise, physically, mentally, and emotionally. But the elected ones of God have always been here from the beginning and already achieved that spiritually by faith. They already accepted that they were guilty and they already looked forward to that promised seed, understanding what he meant to them.

Jude 1:14-15 “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

So then you might argue that Paul was elect and yet he did not know, for he plainly said that he would not have know lust lest the Law had told him. (Romans 7:7)

How easy we forget what Paul also said, Romans 1:18-21 “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”

Having read what Jude told us about Enoch at Jude 1:14-15, do we not now understand what Paul said at 1 Timothy 1:9-11 “Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.”

I think the evidence shows that most of us are not smarter today and it is no wonder we cannot put the picture together properly. We are a generation particularly ignorant through arrogance.

Much of the same avoidance of OT Scripture as before. No added value to the topic and subject at hand.

Insight

whirlwind said:
No. That isn't correct. Ishmael are not natural Jews...whether believing or unbelieving.

.

Who does he represent?

Vengle · Oct 31, 2011

Insight said:
Much of the same avoidance of OT Scripture as before. No added value to the topic and subject at hand.

Insight

Certainly not for you with your bias, that I agree.

Insight said:
Who does he represent?

1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

1 Corinthians 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

And the elect bride of Christ correspond to Eve:

1 Timothy 2:13 "For Adam was first formed, then Eve."

Did Paul have that same thought in mind when he was speaking to the Romans or had he switched to your narrowed view?

Romans 5:14-15 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."

Insight · Nov 1, 2011

Gen 21:5 And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him.

Gen 21:6 And Sarah said, God hath made me to laugh, so that all that hear will laugh with me.

Gen 21:7 And she said, Who would have said unto Abraham, that Sarah should have given children suck? for I have born him a son in his old age.

If we are fully committed to the allegory we would see that is very late in the history of Israel when the promised seed (Jesus Christ) was born. We are told it was a "set time" that Yahweh had appointed. Please compare Gen 21:2KJV with Gal 4:4KJV

Gen 21:8 And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the same day that Isaac was weaned.

Again spiritually speaking the weaning of Isaac (natural Israel) from milk could be likened to him coming off the Law of Moses to a more complete saving message whiich we call the “word of righteousness” found only in Jesus Christ - as per (2 Cor 5:19KJV)

Paul later uses this example to teach us about growing beyond a Law based system (See Heb 5:11,12,13,14)

Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Heb 5:11-14

Where is the proof that Paul here when referring to “first principles” is relating to the Law of Moses?

The "first principles" = Mosaic Law.

Gk stoicheion… The word is only used seven times in the NT, and it always applies to the teachings of Law of Moses. You will see it is translated “elements” four times in 2 Pet. 3:10,11,12; Gal. 4:3,4,5,6,7,8,9), “rudiments” twice in Col 2:8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20) and “first principles” here “Oracles of God”

They were committed to Israel’s trust as being able to lead them to Christ (See Rom 3:2KJV; Acts 7:38KJV)

tbc.

Vengle · Nov 1, 2011

I do not find anything that I disagree with in that post, Insight.

You have identified the Oracles as I see them. The presentation is well ordered.

I am not yet sure what conclusion you are drawing at, though.

What is it you are saying that proves?

Insight · Nov 1, 2011

Vengle said:
I do not find anything that I disagree with in that post, Insight.

You have identified the Oracles as I see them. The presentation is well ordered.

I am not yet sure what conclusion you are drawing at, though.

What is it you are saying that proves?

It's nice to agree on something Vengle. (Said with a sigh of relief)

At present we are developing the great allegory and its lessons out of its origins in Gen 21.

I hope you enjoy the study.

Insight

Insight · Nov 2, 2011

Insight said:
Gen 21:5 And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him.

Gen 21:6 And Sarah said, God hath made me to laugh, so that all that hear will laugh with me.

Gen 21:7 And she said, Who would have said unto Abraham, that Sarah should have given children suck? for I have born him a son in his old age.

If we are fully committed to the allegory we would see that is very late in the history of Israel when the promised seed (Jesus Christ) was born. We are told it was a "set time" that Yahweh had appointed. Please compare Gen 21:2KJV with Gal 4:4KJV

Gen 21:8 And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the same day that Isaac was weaned.

Again spiritually speaking the weaning of Isaac (natural Israel) from milk could be likened to him coming off the Law of Moses to a more complete saving message whiich we call the “word of righteousness” found only in Jesus Christ - as per (2 Cor 5:19KJV)

Paul later uses this example to teach us about growing beyond a Law based system (See Heb 5:11,12,13,14)

Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Heb 5:11-14

Where is the proof that Paul here when referring to “first principles” is relating to the Law of Moses?

The "first principles" = Mosaic Law.

Gk stoicheion… The word is only used seven times in the NT, and it always applies to the teachings of Law of Moses. You will see it is translated “elements” four times in 2 Pet. 3:10,11,12; Gal. 4:3,4,5,6,7,8,9), “rudiments” twice in Col 2:8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20) and “first principles” here “Oracles of God”

They were committed to Israel’s trust as being able to lead them to Christ (See Rom 3:2KJV; Acts 7:38KJV)

tbc.

You will note from the previous post that Abraham conducted a feast upon Isaac being weaned.

“Abraham made a great feast the same day that Isaac was weaned”

If we are vigilant in keeping very close to the allegory of Gal 4 we see Jesus Christ did likewise for his congregation in Luke 22:1, 15. He did this to show a change in our diet from Law giving way for grace and faith to proceed.

Bringing this feast into 2011 we could say this feast is typical of the memorial feast memorial emblems of bread and wine which associated with the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ see Mat 26:17; 1Cor. 5:8; 2Pet. 2:13; Jude 1:12).

Jesus Christ meal of “meat” with the disciples in the upper room, among other things, spoke of our higher spiritual food. This event is a stumbling block to the natural Jews to this day, choosing to seek righteousness by Law (1Cor 1:23; Rom. 10:4-5).

Sadly we find during Pauls journeys these type of Jews mocked the Jewish and Gentile converts who lived by faith.

Insight · Nov 2, 2011

Gen 21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.

It is essential as we move along through Gen 21 we continue to see the context of the allegory.

The natural seed of Abraham, like Ishmael, was born out of “Egypt” See Exo 4:22,23

“Israel is my son, even my firstborn…let my son go that he may serve me”).

Note how the Apostle Paul relates Ishmael’s mocking of Isaac in these allegorical terms:

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. Gal 4:28-31

As Ishmael mocked at Isaac, so Israel under the law persecuted the true converts of the Gospel ( See Acts 13:45,46,47,48; Phil 3:4,5,6; 1Thes 2:14,15,16)

The natural seed of Abraham “born after the flesh” i.e the Jews oppressed the brethren and sisters in Christ severely, i.e “the children of promise.”

As we found in our studied of Rom 11 Paul himself was charged with such an offence by Christ for persecuting their Christians to the death. In this confession, he admits his natural Jewish descent:

“Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the ecclesia; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless”

And thereby fulfilling the allegorical terms of Ishmael mocking of Isaac. Phil 3:4-6 (see Acts 13:45,46,47,48; 1Thes 2:14,15,16).

Insight

Dan@Wordservice.org · Nov 2, 2011

Very good job Insight. It is always nice to see someone take the Word of God for what it says. What you are saying is certainly not very popular today. There is allot more prophecy in the book of Genesis regarding the first verses the second covenants. I call it prophecy rather than types and shadows because God prophesied the future through the lives of the people in the book of Genesis. As a matter of fact the first verse the second covenant is the most prophesied subject in that book. I wrote an article about this listing all the prophecy about ten years ago. It has been number 1-3 on MSN and Yahoo the whole time and 1-3 on Google off and on. (Due to the way it keeps changing the way it rate things.) Always climbs back up. I think it will add powerfully to what you are teaching. Especially as to the reason why you need to teach what you are teaching. Having correct doctrine is good and you are to be commended. Knowing what correct doctrine will produce in the earth is even better. That is why I believe the article will make your voice much more powerful. You will have a world changing reason to preach what you are preaching.

http://www.wordservice.org/Symbolisms%20in%20Genesis/bs1000.htm

Dan

Insight · Nov 3, 2011

[email protected] said:
Very good job Insight. It is always nice to see someone take the Word of God for what it says. What you are saying is certainly not very popular today. There is allot more prophecy in the book of Genesis regarding the first verses the second covenants. I call it prophecy rather than types and shadows because God prophesied the future through the lives of the people in the book of Genesis. As a matter of fact the first verse the second covenant is the most prophesied subject in that book. I wrote an article about this listing all the prophecy about ten years ago. It has been number 1-3 on MSN and Yahoo the whole time and 1-3 on Google off and on. (Due to the way it keeps changing the way it rate things.) Always climbs back up. I think it will add powerfully to what you are teaching. Especially as to the reason why you need to teach what you are teaching. Having correct doctrine is good and you are to be commended. Knowing what correct doctrine will produce in the earth is even better. That is why I believe the article will make your voice much more powerful. You will have a world changing reason to preach what you are preaching.

http://www.wordservi...esis/bs1000.htm

Dan

Hi Dan,

Thanks for your coments - Yahwehs Word is truly a light in a dark place!

Thank you for the link it appears you have a good grounding in the prophetical word. You may have been following a thread between Vengle and myself on
Hath-God-Cast-Away-His-People on Rom 11, which has been very interesting.

I am sure you will keep me honest going forward.

God Bless

Insight

For it is written that Abraham had two sons

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