And then?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Hitch

Member
May 7, 2011
153
5
18
PeoplesRepublikofOregon
In light of the NT teaching that the church is ;

the children of God R 8;16
household of God E 2;19
Abe's seed G 3;7
children of the promise G 4;28
elect of God Col 3;12
heirs of God R 8;17
heirs according to the promise G 3;29
the temple of God I Cor 3;16
the circumcision Ph 3;3
the Israel of God G 6;16
A chosen generation
A royal priesthood
A peculiar people 1 P 2;9
Heirs if the Kingdom Jas 2;5
sons of God Jn 1;12
Kings and priests unto God Rev 1;6
the new Jerusalem Rev 3;12
the holy city Rev 21;2
the people of God H 4;9
Mount Sion H 12;22
the heavenly Jerusalem


What is left for the physical nation ?

Once and Future Israel R B Yerby p 47
 

Hitch

Member
May 7, 2011
153
5
18
PeoplesRepublikofOregon
I like Lat when its in the background , like Bills Balkan or even SCTM. When its right up front I love the pouch note but the smoke,,, just doesnt do anything for me.
 

shilohsfoal

Active Member
Dec 26, 2010
860
47
28
60
North Carolina
There is still a remnant to be chosen but they are also considerd Israel.
As for the majority,most worship the beast which they followed into the promised land.

This is what happens to the majority when Israel inherits the kingdom.

Mathew 8;11-
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
1,783
45
48
66
Tampa Bay, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shabbat shalom, Hitch.

In light of the NT teaching that the church is ;

the children of God R 8;16
household of God E 2;19
Abe's seed G 3;7
children of the promise G 4;28
elect of God Col 3;12
heirs of God R 8;17
heirs according to the promise G 3;29
the temple of God I Cor 3;16
the circumcision Ph 3;3
the Israel of God G 6;16
A chosen generation
A royal priesthood
A peculiar people 1 P 2;9
Heirs if the Kingdom Jas 2;5
sons of God Jn 1;12
Kings and priests unto God Rev 1;6
the new Jerusalem Rev 3;12
the holy city Rev 21;2
the people of God H 4;9
Mount Sion H 12;22
the heavenly Jerusalem


What is left for the physical nation ?

Once and Future Israel R B Yerby p 47

You've assumed an awful lot to say these are all referring to "the church." Actually, B'rit haChadashah (the NT) is not that far removed from the Tanakh (the OT). Have you ever taken the time to see how many quotations from the Tanakh are used in B'rit haChadashah, particularly those from the navi'iym (the prophets)?! Regardless what Yerby said about "Israel," I can guarantee you, based on the Tanakh, particularly the prophets, that the "church" is NOT the "new Isra'el." It's not even CLOSE! There are promises made to national Isra'el that the "church" could NEVER have fulfilled for it instead! There are promises made to Avraham, Yitschaq, Ya`aqov (Yisra'el), Moshe, Y'hoshua`, David, Zerubavel, and to each of the prophets that MUST be fulfilled to national Isra'el, or they make no sense! And, if God does NOT fulfill them to national Isra'el, then He would be a liar, and we know that THAT can never be!

Now, should we go through each one of these claims of yours? Because we can, y'know, if that's what it will take.

What's left for the physical nation?! EVERYTHING!

Romans 3:1-4
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
KJV


They are called "the people of the Book" for a reason!

Romans 9:3-16
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
KJV


Romans 11:11-29
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall (i.e. permanently)? God forbid: but rather through their (temporary) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (i.e., God doesn't renig on His gifts or calling!)
KJV


NEVER underestimate the power of God or the love of God! He still loves and cares for those He worked with and through for thousands of years! That God would still perform His promises to national Isra'el is PROOF that He will perform His promise of eternal life to us!
 

Trekson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2012
2,084
218
63
67
Kentucky
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I think I gotta side with Retrobyter on this one.
 

Hitch

Member
May 7, 2011
153
5
18
PeoplesRepublikofOregon
You've assumed an awful lot to say these are all referring to "the church."


Gee just because 100% is taken directly from Apostolic writ, why would anyone think Pete ,Paul and John have the church in view .

You mentioned the Oracles of God. Ciaphas had access to these, as did Pete. For Pete because of God's grace they became ,so to speak, a Corner Stone, for Ciaphas the same became a mill stone. To whom much is given,,,remember?
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Apostle Paul, both a Jew and an Israelite, gave direct answer as to who all those quotes apply to:

Rom 9:3-8
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(KJV)

If unbelieving Israel still... refuse to believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ (Messiah), then they are 'cut off' because of that unbelief (per Paul also in Rom.11).

It's those who believe on Jesus Christ per The Promise first given through Abraham... that are COUNTED for the seed, which means BOTH believing Israelites and believing GENTILES.

The believing GENTILES SHALL INHERIT with believing Israel.
 

Hitch

Member
May 7, 2011
153
5
18
PeoplesRepublikofOregon
Apostle Paul, both a Jew and an Israelite, gave direct answer as to who all those quotes apply to:

Rom 9:3-8
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(KJV)

If unbelieving Israel still... refuse to believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ (Messiah), then they are 'cut off' because of that unbelief (per Paul also in Rom.11).

It's those who believe on Jesus Christ per The Promise first given through Abraham... that are COUNTED for the seed, which means BOTH believing Israelites and believing GENTILES.

The believing GENTILES SHALL INHERIT with believing Israel.
Well the boy got one right.
 

Hitch

Member
May 7, 2011
153
5
18
PeoplesRepublikofOregon
Stick around, you'll discover that I get quite a lot right in God's Word, even the timing when Jesus will take His throne and rule over all nations on the earth, which is not right now.
why would you want the Devil's helper to stay around?

Never cared for Lat myself ... except for maybe a tiny amount in the background. Prefer sweet burleys mostly.
I seldom mix but recently I made a batch of 1 part ButterNut and 9 parts PA. Gives it a nice little something.
 

Guestman

Active Member
Nov 11, 2009
618
72
28
70
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The fleshly nation of Israel would be chosen to be God's people because of a covenant (Abrahamic covenant) that God made with Abraham in 1943 B.C.E. when Abraham was 75 years old.(Gen 12:4) God told Abraham: "Go your way out of your country and from your relatives and from the house of your father to the country that I shall show you; and I shall make a great nation out of you and I shall bless you and I will make your name great; and prove yourself a blessing."(Gen 12:1, 2)

Four hundred and thirty years later in 1513 B.C.E., God made Abraham's seed into " a great nation", giving them a set of over 600 laws that formed the national constitution called the Mosaic Law covenant.(Gal 3:17)

He told them (through Moses) that "if you will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then you will certainly become my special property out of all [other] peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. And you yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ "(Ex 19:5, 6)

Upon the arrival of the Messiah or Christ over 1500 years later in 29 C.E., what was the moral condition of the nation of fleshly Israel ? Instead of pure worship being the focus, the nation had divided itself into several religious groups, such as the Pharisees and Sadducees that did not accept the promised Messiah, Jesus Christ. Over the course of 3 years, Jesus, like a farmer cultivating his soil, tried to develop the nation into one that honored Jehovah God.

In the fall of 32 C.E., he gave an illustration of the moral condition of the nation, saying: "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came looking for fruit on it, but found none. Then he said to the vinedresser, ‘Here it is three years that I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree, but have found none. Cut it down! Why really should it keep the ground useless?’ In reply he said to him, ‘Master, let it alone also this year, until I dig around it and put on manure; and if then it produces fruit in the future, [well and good]; but if not, you shall cut it down.’” (Luke 13:6-9)

In the illustration, the man that planted the symbolic "fig tree" is Jehovah God and the "vinedresser" is Jesus Christ. When Jesus arrived in 29 C.E. as the "Christ of God" (Luke 9:20), he found no "fruit" that he could take back to his heavenly Father. He had endeavored for 3 years to cultivate faith among the Jewish nation. Jesus now intensified his efforts by "fertilizing" the symbolic fig tree - the Jewish nation - giving it an opportunity to produce fruit. However, the week before Jesus death, it was now apparent that the nation of fleshly Israel was almost devoid of godly "fruit", for they had rejected the Messiah.

Jesus used the fig tree to illustrate the bad spiritual state of the nation. While traveling from Bethany to Jerusalem four days before his death, he saw a fig tree that had abundant leaves but no fruit whatsoever. Since the early figs appear along with the leaves—and sometimes even before the leaves develop—the tree’s lack of fruit showed that it was worthless.(Mark 11:13, 14)

Like the unproductive fig tree that looked healthy, the Jewish nation had a deceptive outward appearance. But it had not produced godly fruitage, and it finally rejected Jehovah’s own Son. Jesus cursed the sterile fig tree, and on the following day, the disciples noticed that it had already withered. That dried-up tree aptly signified God’s forthcoming rejection of the fleshly Jews as his chosen people.(Mark 11:20, 21)

Jesus, looking at the city of Jerusalem, now said: "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,—how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings ! But you people did not want it. Look ! Your house is abandoned to you. For I say to you, you will by no means see me from henceforth until you say, ‘Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah’s name !’”(Matt 23:37-39)

Jesus had also said to the Jewish religious leaders: "Did you never read in the Scriptures (at Psalms 118:22 and Isaiah 28:16), ‘The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? This is why I say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits. Also, the person falling upon this stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him.”(Matt 21:42-44)

Thus, the nation of fleshly Israel lost the right to become "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation", being replaced by another "nation" that would produce the "fruits" of the "kingdom" and that was later identified as the "Israel of God", individuals made up of both Jews and Gentiles.(Gal 6:16) These became a spiritual "nation" that are the "seed of Abraham"(Rom 9:6-8) and form God's kingdom.(Rev 5:9, 10)
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Thus, the nation of fleshly Israel lost the right to become "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation", being replaced by another "nation" that would produce the "fruits" of the "kingdom" and that was later identified as the "Israel of God", individuals made up of both Jews and Gentiles.(Gal 6:16) These became a spiritual "nation" that are the "seed of Abraham"(Rom 9:6-8) and form God's kingdom.(Rev 5:9, 10)

The "vineyard" in Christ's parable of the husbandmen is...

Isa 5:7
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah His pleasant plant: and He looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
(KJV)

God removed ALL of the ten tribed "house of Israel" out of the holy land, and away from Judah's care long prior to Christ's first coming in 4 B.C (Bishop Ussher and E.W. Bullinger's chronology). The majority of the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) were not even in the holy land when Judah went into their own separate captivity to Babylon, with only a small remnant of Judah, Benjaim, and Levi returning per Ezra 2.



Apostle Paul quotes from Hosea in the Book of Romans when speaking to believing Gentiles, joining them in the prophecy along with who?...

Hosea 1:6-11
6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not My people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people', there it shall be said unto them, 'Ye are the sons of the living God.'
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
(KJV)


It was to the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) that God divorced, and called them Loammi 'not My people'. That was not to nor about Judah (Jews).

God simply moved the ten tribes among the Gentiles, then Christ Jesus and The Gospel was sent to them with the Gentiles, and only a small remnant of Jews believed along with Israel and Gentiles.