Symbolism

Trekson · Mar 28, 2026

The definition of “symbolism” is “the practice of representing things by means of symbols or of attributing symbolic meanings or significance to objects, events or relationships.”

In my opinion, those who interpret scripture, especially prophetic scriptures emphasizing symbolism are off track. There is no denying that scripture uses symbolism or symbolic language occasionally but usually it defines it within the context. Ex. Rev.17:3 - “So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.”

Symbolism explained: Rev. 17:9 - “…The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.”
Rev. 17:12 - “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings…”
Rev. 17:18 - “.”And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.

Rev. 1:12, 16 use symbolic language but they are explained in Rev. 1:20.

The problem with over emphasizing symbolism is that the possibilities become endless. Trying to find real truth depending on symbolism is like chasing unicorns and leprechauns. You might get lucky, but I wouldn’t bet my life on it, which some of these people do.

To me, there is only one logical way to discern the bible. I like this “Golden Rule of Interpreting Bible Prophecy” - “When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense, but take every word at its primary, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context clearly indicate otherwise.” (I was told this quote goes back to a Dr. David Cooper)

Symbolism also makes up its own rules like: a word once used symbolically must always be considered in its symbolic sense when used again. SDA’s do this with their “year for a day principle” which isn’t a “principle” at all. Usually, if such a symbolic timeline is given, the scriptures say so within the context, and should only be considered within that context, not applied to every other prophetic timeline given.

Mostly, it’s no big deal but problems arise when one feels symbolism lends itself to generalities or vagueness. We must ask ourselves, what is the precedent that God gave us when we look back upon fulfilled prophecy? I would say the vast majority of fulfilled prophecy has been pretty specific and mostly literal once the symbolic language is understood. To use symbolism to define, let’s say the Revelation, as a prophecy of general good times and bad times continuously repeating themselves is at best careless and at worst foolish, considering the record we have to follow. God isn’t vague and He hasn’t used the symbolic languages to try and cloak the end-times in some veiled mystery He left us to decipher. The bible tells us that His sheep know His voice and the Holy Spirit is the one that brings all things to our understanding.

The question becomes then, why do His sheep have multitudes of answers to the prophetic equations? It’s really not that hard to understand and not really that far apart. If you were to measure the amount of agreements between different aspects of eschatology I think you would come up with more areas of agreements over disagreements when you boil things down to the common denominators.

Let’s take the fact/timing of the rapture. Instead of creating division wouldn’t it be wiser to try and follow a common wise course of action such as; all Christians should be ready to go and ready to stay depending on which way it plays out. It’s never wise to put all our eggs in one basket, prophetically speaking. If everyone were to follow that simple guideline than the worst case scenario on each end of the spectrum would be that we spent time and money on resources our unsaved loved ones could use or we aren’t shocked and surprised at the trials and tribulations that come our way and we will have the mental and spiritual fortitude to be willing martyrs if God so desires. Wouldn’t that make the Body of Christ stronger and more unified and closer to becoming a church w/o spot or wrinkle? If we tried, we could probably find all these common denominators in these divisions we call denominations and eliminate them so that we can truly be as one as our Lord commands.

ScottA · Mar 28, 2026

Trekson said:
The definition of “symbolism” is “the practice of representing things by means of symbols or of attributing symbolic meanings or significance to objects, events or relationships.”

In my opinion, those who interpret scripture, especially prophetic scriptures emphasizing symbolism are off track. There is no denying that scripture uses symbolism or symbolic language occasionally but usually it defines it within the context. Ex. Rev.17:3 - “So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.”

Symbolism explained: Rev. 17:9 - “…The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.”
Rev. 17:12 - “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings…”
Rev. 17:18 - “.”And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.

Rev. 1:12, 16 use symbolic language but they are explained in Rev. 1:20.

The problem with over emphasizing symbolism is that the possibilities become endless. Trying to find real truth depending on symbolism is like chasing unicorns and leprechauns. You might get lucky, but I wouldn’t bet my life on it, which some of these people do.

To me, there is only one logical way to discern the bible. I like this “Golden Rule of Interpreting Bible Prophecy” - “When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense, but take every word at its primary, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context clearly indicate otherwise.” (I found this on the internet several years ago and do not know who to give credit to. It is not original to me)

Symbolism also makes up its own rules like: a word once used symbolically must always be considered in its symbolic sense when used again. SDA’s do this with their “year for a day principle” which isn’t a “principle” at all. Usually, if such a symbolic timeline is given, the scriptures say so within the context, and should only be considered within that context, not applied to every other prophetic timeline given.

Mostly, it’s no big deal but problems arise when one feels symbolism lends itself to generalities or vagueness. We must ask ourselves, what is the precedent that God gave us when we look back upon fulfilled prophecy? I would say the vast majority of fulfilled prophecy has been pretty specific and mostly literal once the symbolic language is understood. To use symbolism to define, let’s say the Revelation, as a prophecy of general good times and bad times continuously repeating themselves is at best careless and at worst foolish, considering the record we have to follow. God isn’t vague and He hasn’t used the symbolic languages to try and cloak the end-times in some veiled mystery He left us to decipher. The bible tells us that His sheep know His voice and the Holy Spirit is the one that brings all things to our understanding.

The question becomes then, why do His sheep have multitudes of answers to the prophetic equations? It’s really not that hard to understand and not really that far apart. If you were to measure the amount of agreements between different aspects of eschatology I think you would come up with more areas of agreements over disagreements when you boil things down to the common denominators.

Let’s take the fact/timing of the rapture. Instead of creating division wouldn’t it be wiser to try and follow a common wise course of action such as; all Christians should be ready to go and ready to stay depending on which way it plays out. It’s never wise to put all our eggs in one basket, prophetically speaking. If everyone were to follow that simple guideline than the worst case scenario on each end of the spectrum would be that we spent time and money on resources our unsaved loved ones could use or we aren’t shocked and surprised at the trials and tribulations that come our way and we will have the mental and spiritual fortitude to be willing martyrs if God so desires. Wouldn’t that make the Body of Christ stronger and more unified and closer to becoming a church w/o spot or wrinkle? If we tried, we could probably find all these common denominators in these divisions we call denominations and eliminate them so that we can truly be as one as our Lord commands.

The possibilities only become endless if the symbolism is left to opinion--to people and their own understanding--rather than God alone.

But Jesus explained, giving many examples by the named parables--saying about such use of symbolism, that "it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given" (Matthew 13:11). But notice also that there was a process by which understanding was given: It did not come to the apostles--they often did not understand either--and He even had to explain it to them.

So...what had "been given" to the apostles and what should we expect is likewise given to us?

What was given the twelve apostles, and is now also given to us--was and is untranslated or explained and in need of explanation--not by men of flesh and blood, but by God. Which is only given to few--not just anyone who has the Holy Spirit. Which goes against many people's understanding of the Holy Spirit being a "Helper" to "guide into all truth." The problem is, that is not all that is written. It is also written that we are a body of many members, each having God-given gifts--but all gifts are not given to all. So, one cannot just claim "the Holy Spirit guides me", therefore I understand anything what I believe is true. That is not how God works--that's how division works.

So, what then, one says "I believe", and another says, "that is wrong, but what I believe is true" and that's okay? How foolish is that--and how unbiblical! To the contrary, this mess of conflicting "beliefs" (and doctrine, and the teachings of men), is not God-given--it's people giving out of their own understanding. If one is doing this--they are the problem!

Stop doing that!

Trekson · Mar 28, 2026

ScottA said:
The possibilities only become endless if the symbolism is left to opinion--to people and their own understanding--rather than God alone.

But Jesus explained, giving many examples by the named parables--saying about such use of symbolism, that "it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given" (Matthew 13:11). But notice also that there was a process by which understanding was given: It did not come to the apostles--they often did not understand either--and He even had to explain it to them.

So...what had "been given" to the apostles and what should we expect is likewise given to us?

What as given the twelve apostles, and is now also given to us--was and is untranslated or explained and in need of explanation--not by men of flesh and blood, but by God. Which is only given to few--not just anyone who has the Holy Spirit. Which goes against many people's understanding of the Holy Spirit being a "Helper" to "guide into all truth." The problem is, that is not all that is written. It is also written that we are a body of many members, each having God-given gifts--but all gifts are not given to all. So, one cannot just claim "the Holy Spirit guides me", therefore I understand anything that I believe is true. That is not how God works--that's how division works.

So, what then, one says "I believe", and another says, "that is wrong, but what I believe is true" and that's okay? How foolish is that--and how unbiblical! To the contrary, this mess of conflicting "beliefs" (and doctrine, and the teachings of men), is not God-given--it's people giving out of their own understanding. If one is doing this--they are the problem!

Stop doing that!

Your quote: "the Holy Spirit guides me", therefore I understand anything that I believe is true" I have never claimed that, nor should anyone else because no one knows the whole story, however, biblically we are taught by Dan. 12, that knowledge will increase in the latter days and that means we should be open to seeing things differently as we get closer to the latter days. If we don't believe there is anything more to learn, then one isn't open to hearing anything new.

ScottA · Mar 28, 2026

Trekson said:
Your quote: "the Holy Spirit guides me", therefore I understand anything that I believe is true" I have never claimed that, nor should anyone else because no one knows the whole story, however, biblically we are taught by Dan. 12, that knowledge will increase in the latter days and that means we should be open to seeing things differently as we get closer to the latter days. If we don't believe there is anything more to learn, then one isn't open to hearing anything new.

I am not going to go back and quote you, but you referred to the Holy Spirit as the source of what you believe.

But yes, we should all expect that correction of many customary beliefs was to come, and has come even if not believed. Still, the Holy Spirit does not give a person what they "believe" per se. He gives them what they "know." But not because they are convinced and confident, or from years of study--those things are not the Source of knowledge. Meanwhile, you have only wavered back and forth across between believing and what you believe you know. Which is no service to God, but rather disservice.

Trekson · Mar 28, 2026

ScottA said:
I am not going to go back and quote you, but you referred to the Holy Spirit as the source of what you believe.

But yes, we should all expect that correction of many customary beliefs was to come, and has come even if not believed. Still, the Holy Spirit does not give a person what they "believe" per se. He gives them what they "know." But not because they are convinced and confident, or from years of study--those things are not the Source of knowledge. Meanwhile, you have only wavered back and forth across between believing and what you believe you know. Which is no service to God, but rather disservice.

Yes, I did say that about certain topics, not "everything" I believe. I don't know everything but if it seems I have waivered it would be about different topics. In prophecy there are dozens of different topics to have opinions on, but there a small few that I have absolute certainty on.

Zao is life · Mar 28, 2026

Trekson said:
The definition of “symbolism” is “the practice of representing things by means of symbols or of attributing symbolic meanings or significance to objects, events or relationships.”

In my opinion, those who interpret scripture, especially prophetic scriptures emphasizing symbolism are off track. There is no denying that scripture uses symbolism or symbolic language occasionally but usually it defines it within the context. Ex. Rev.17:3 - “So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.”

Symbolism explained: Rev. 17:9 - “…The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.”
Rev. 17:12 - “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings…”
Rev. 17:18 - “.”And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.

Rev. 1:12, 16 use symbolic language but they are explained in Rev. 1:20.

The problem with over emphasizing symbolism is that the possibilities become endless. Trying to find real truth depending on symbolism is like chasing unicorns and leprechauns. You might get lucky, but I wouldn’t bet my life on it, which some of these people do.

To me, there is only one logical way to discern the bible. I like this “Golden Rule of Interpreting Bible Prophecy” - “When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense, but take every word at its primary, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context clearly indicate otherwise.” (I found this on the internet several years ago and do not know who to give credit to. It is not original to me)

Symbolism also makes up its own rules like: a word once used symbolically must always be considered in its symbolic sense when used again. SDA’s do this with their “year for a day principle” which isn’t a “principle” at all. Usually, if such a symbolic timeline is given, the scriptures say so within the context, and should only be considered within that context, not applied to every other prophetic timeline given.

Mostly, it’s no big deal but problems arise when one feels symbolism lends itself to generalities or vagueness. We must ask ourselves, what is the precedent that God gave us when we look back upon fulfilled prophecy? I would say the vast majority of fulfilled prophecy has been pretty specific and mostly literal once the symbolic language is understood. To use symbolism to define, let’s say the Revelation, as a prophecy of general good times and bad times continuously repeating themselves is at best careless and at worst foolish, considering the record we have to follow. God isn’t vague and He hasn’t used the symbolic languages to try and cloak the end-times in some veiled mystery He left us to decipher. The bible tells us that His sheep know His voice and the Holy Spirit is the one that brings all things to our understanding.

The question becomes then, why do His sheep have multitudes of answers to the prophetic equations? It’s really not that hard to understand and not really that far apart. If you were to measure the amount of agreements between different aspects of eschatology I think you would come up with more areas of agreements over disagreements when you boil things down to the common denominators.

Let’s take the fact/timing of the rapture. Instead of creating division wouldn’t it be wiser to try and follow a common wise course of action such as; all Christians should be ready to go and ready to stay depending on which way it plays out. It’s never wise to put all our eggs in one basket, prophetically speaking. If everyone were to follow that simple guideline than the worst case scenario on each end of the spectrum would be that we spent time and money on resources our unsaved loved ones could use or we aren’t shocked and surprised at the trials and tribulations that come our way and we will have the mental and spiritual fortitude to be willing martyrs if God so desires. Wouldn’t that make the Body of Christ stronger and more unified and closer to becoming a church w/o spot or wrinkle? If we tried, we could probably find all these common denominators in these divisions we call denominations and eliminate them so that we can truly be as one as our Lord commands.

You have a lot to say and to 'teach' regarding the meaning of prophecy and the metaphor / symbolism used

- for someone who believes that "instead of creating division wouldn’t it be wiser to try and follow a common wise course of action such as; all Christians should be ready"

Just look at how long your above post is and how much of your own personal opinions you have included.

Why do you post all your own opinions on eschatology and what portions of prophetic scripture is telling us if what I have just quoted you saying is your view? You create a lot of threads here with your own personal opinions regarding what you think scripture is teaching for someone who believes what you say regarding "a common wise course of action".

IMO what you're actually saying is, "I'm right, you are all wrong. Just agree with all my personal opinions when I post so that there is no division."

You seem to think all your thoughts about these things are God's thoughts. Yet most of your opinions are not in accordance with biblical truth, so why post in an eschatology discussion board if you want no debate? The basis of your views is false (= most of your views are false because they are built on a false premise), so understand that whatever you say will be challenged when you post.

Marilyn C · Mar 28, 2026

All symbolisim is explained by God in His word. He leaves nothing for us to make up or speculate on.

eg. The Kingdom of heaven parables are explained in the Old Testament. God`s word tells us.

`Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, TO CONFIRM THE PROMISES MADE TO THE FATHERS....` (Rom. 15: 8)

People try and make up all sorts of explanations for the `kingdom of heaven parables,` when God Himself tells us that they are the `promises made to the fathers.` Jesus Himself quotes and refers to these promises. No mystery, just reading what God has written.

Trekson · Mar 28, 2026

Zao is life said:
You have a lot to say and to 'teach' regarding the meaning of prophecy and the metaphor / symbolism used

- for someone who believes that "instead of creating division wouldn’t it be wiser to try and follow a common wise course of action such as; all Christians should be ready"

Just look at how long your above post is and how much of your own personal opinions you have included.

Why do you post all your own opinions on eschatology and what portions of prophetic scripture is telling us if what I have just quoted you saying is your view? You create a lot of threads here with your own personal opinions regarding what you think scripture is teaching for someone who believes what you say regarding "a common wise course of action".

IMO what you're actually saying is, "I'm right, you are all wrong. Just agree with all my personal opinions when I post so that there is no division."

You seem to think all your thoughts about these things are God's thoughts. Yet most of your opinions are not in accordance with biblical truth, so why post in an eschatology discussion board if you want no debate? The basis of your views is false (= most of your views are false because they are built on a false premise), so understand that whatever you say will be challenged when you post.

What, I'm not allowed to have personal opinions? The opinions weren't about scripture but about how people "interpret" scripture. This particular post was really pretty short. They are 'all" in accordance w/ biblical truth! I don't speak any differently than anyone else. When I am expressing an opinion, I say so. I'm open to debate but some on here are coming from outer space somewhere. Other people have tried, but in most cases, they don't succeed successfully. Here's another opinion for you, when I write something that I believe to be the truth according to scripture, 99% of the time folks just tell me I'm wrong or I'm stomping on Christ and other such nonsense. However, don't just tell me I'm wrong, show me the scripture that explains "why" my belief is wrong then we can have a discourse from there. There are certain topics that I am certain about that generally challenge others perceptions about them, so yes I do express them as if I was right, because I know I am but not because I'm smarter or wiser but because I listen. I'm open to the possibility that I might have been wrong on things and the HS might show me a little something maybe every 3-5 yrs. if I'm blessed, many times on what I was wrong about. When He does, it's usually Him shedding a different light on a verse I probably read hundreds of times but never really thought about it. Long term studying, (50 yrs.) is a journey. I started pretrib because I was raised pentecostal, then God led me to Rosenthal's book about prewrath. I didn't accept it right away, I tried to, by myself, challenge what I was reading but in most cases, I couldn't. I still believe in much of what I learned from pre-wrath, but then I was shown another verse that changed that perspective slightly. Since there wasn't an official name for the direction I was given, I made up my own and call it post-persecution. I always give verses about why I believe a certain way. The biggest differences usually stem from folks trying to understand unfulfilled Jewish prophecies though a Christian lens and in most cases it just doesn't work.

Zao is life · Mar 29, 2026

Trekson said:
The opinions weren't about scripture but about how people "interpret" scripture.

Yet you also assert - by your choices of words in the things you say - that even though so many disagree with you about the way you interpret prophetic scripture regarding Israel, its Messiah, and the Church, your thoughts are God's thoughts.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9).

Trekson said:
They are 'all" in accordance w/ biblical truth!

According to you - but Jesus summed prophetic scripture up this way:

"The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." (Luke 16:16).

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." (John 5:39)

Trekson said:
Long term studying, (50 yrs.) is a journey.

Your journey is not a qualification or a "Certificate of Correctness" with regard to your beliefs based on your interpretations of prophetic parts of scripture. There are those who have studied scripture a lot less decades than you who have deeper understanding than you - and they don't appeal to the length of time they have been studying scripture, or to their "qualifications in theology", or anything else.

Others, like myself, who disagree with your conclusions, also have decades of study of scripture.

Your appeal to your own studies is once again an appeal to be "right" and all those who understand the scripture better than you, to be wrong.

You can't make an appeal to having the Holy Spirit either - because everyone who belongs to Christ has the Holy Spirit - and many disagree with you and can see the flaws and error in your thinking. In fact, we all disagree with one another at some point.

For example, I can confidently say that it's clear to me how your own human understanding has blocked the teaching of the Holy Spirit with regard to a number of things written about in the prophetic books, and hence your thoughts are not God's thoughts - which does not qualify either my thoughts OR your thoughts as being God's thoughts.

There is only one kingdom of God @Trekson - and it's in Christ, because He is the elect of God - the seed first promised in Genesis 3:15. That's why Paul taught,

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Galatians 3:16)

Trekson said:
I started pretrib because I was raised pentecostal, then God led me to Rosenthal's book about prewrath. I didn't accept it right away, I tried to, by myself, challenge what I was reading but in most cases, I couldn't.

You have just proved that you base your thinking and understanding on what other's say the Bible says instead of ONLY asking The Father to give you the understanding of His Word, as well as insight and the knowledge that you might need (cultural idioms etc), and then studying the scriptures for yourself without any thought for what others say the scriptures say.

Besides that, Pentecostal is a very bad basis IMO. Thankfully I attended two churches when I was saved: A Pentecostal / Charismatic church, and a conservative Baptist church (which was Calvinist). Both were wrong in certain respects (as all churches are wrong in certain respects) - but the Baptists at least did not read scripture from the pulpit and then still tell you it means what the words plainly do not mean, like the Pentecostals did. By now I have a good idea of what all the denominations and the Catholics and the Orthodox teach - and I don't agree with everything any of them say - let alone with everything one person says in a book he wrote!!

All along I studied the scriptures for myself from day 1 of having my eyes opened by God, and did not believe anything anyone said about what the Bible was saying. I certainly would not have bought any book expressing anyone else's interpretations - and the shelves in Christian bookstores is full of them - they are "Libraries of Personal Opinions" (such as yours). Rather, I bought books about 1st century Jewish culture, and history books that would aid me with knowledge I might need - while I prayed to God daily before reading / studying the Word, for understanding and insight

- and all along I have done so with the knowledge that I'm human and my own human understanding can block the teaching of the Holy Spirit

- as is clearly the case with your understanding - because many of the things that you say are not biblical

- but these things come only gradually, and the day you stopped growing in your knowledge and understanding of the Word of God and being able to have your mind changed by the Word of God about things you believe with respect to how certain passages should be interpreted, is the day you became set in your belief in a false doctrine + the false doctrines based on the same false premise that your own human understanding has decided is true.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9).

I doubt you are nearly as capable - as your OP implies and asserts you are - to know where metaphor / symbolism ends and where what is literal begins in the prophetic books of the Bible. You have already made it obvious by some of your opinions that you yourself are not able to know when the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, and it's time to seek no other sense, but take every word at its primary, literal meaning, nor are you able to know when the facts of the immediate context clearly indicate otherwise.

It's easy to kick out quotes like the above and imply that they apply to whoever disagrees with your interpretations, "but not to you." Easy - but it proves none of what you say.

ScottA · Mar 29, 2026

Trekson said:
Yes, I did say that about certain topics, not "everything" I believe. I don't know everything but if it seems I have waivered it would be about different topics. In prophecy there are dozens of different topics to have opinions on, but there a small few that I have absolute certainty on.

Fair enough.

Circling back, I suppose what I have reacted to, and find issue with, is the idea of "over emphasizing symbolism."

The problem with such an idea is that it goes against the very premise in which God has with creation. Considering the idea of symbolism being "over emphasized" after being created in the "image" of God in this created world, by God who has revealed by worldly things, that which is of heaven and not created or contrived--is absurd.

God's creation is symbolism--for it reveals what is actually real by what is merely created to reveal it.

Even every word of scripture is only (or moreover) symbolism, for every word "is spirit." And what is the whole creation but the manifestation of the word by "the Word"--"Word" itself or rather Himself, being symbolic of the One who has created all things.

Therefore, the idea of "over emphasizing symbolism" is like the idea that "over spiritualizing" is somehow wrong--because "God is spirit", and His every goal is that this mere creation be dissolved and we who have endured this great lesser created imagery who love him in spite of it all--is that we be "like Him"--spirit also. Making everything we know, a spiritual act of God--everything.

The problem as I see it, is our inability to comprehend such a great spiritual and symbolic act by God...so we often reject it. Is rejection not the great and repeated plot of history--His story about His dealings with us, and to save us? It is.

Ronald Nolette · Mar 29, 2026

Trekson said:
The definition of “symbolism” is “the practice of representing things by means of symbols or of attributing symbolic meanings or significance to objects, events or relationships.”

In my opinion, those who interpret scripture, especially prophetic scriptures emphasizing symbolism are off track. There is no denying that scripture uses symbolism or symbolic language occasionally but usually it defines it within the context. Ex. Rev.17:3 - “So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.”

Symbolism explained: Rev. 17:9 - “…The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.”
Rev. 17:12 - “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings…”
Rev. 17:18 - “.”And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.

Rev. 1:12, 16 use symbolic language but they are explained in Rev. 1:20.

The problem with over emphasizing symbolism is that the possibilities become endless. Trying to find real truth depending on symbolism is like chasing unicorns and leprechauns. You might get lucky, but I wouldn’t bet my life on it, which some of these people do.

To me, there is only one logical way to discern the bible. I like this “Golden Rule of Interpreting Bible Prophecy” - “When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense, but take every word at its primary, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context clearly indicate otherwise.” (I found this on the internet several years ago and do not know who to give credit to. It is not original to me)

Symbolism also makes up its own rules like: a word once used symbolically must always be considered in its symbolic sense when used again. SDA’s do this with their “year for a day principle” which isn’t a “principle” at all. Usually, if such a symbolic timeline is given, the scriptures say so within the context, and should only be considered within that context, not applied to every other prophetic timeline given.

Mostly, it’s no big deal but problems arise when one feels symbolism lends itself to generalities or vagueness. We must ask ourselves, what is the precedent that God gave us when we look back upon fulfilled prophecy? I would say the vast majority of fulfilled prophecy has been pretty specific and mostly literal once the symbolic language is understood. To use symbolism to define, let’s say the Revelation, as a prophecy of general good times and bad times continuously repeating themselves is at best careless and at worst foolish, considering the record we have to follow. God isn’t vague and He hasn’t used the symbolic languages to try and cloak the end-times in some veiled mystery He left us to decipher. The bible tells us that His sheep know His voice and the Holy Spirit is the one that brings all things to our understanding.

The question becomes then, why do His sheep have multitudes of answers to the prophetic equations? It’s really not that hard to understand and not really that far apart. If you were to measure the amount of agreements between different aspects of eschatology I think you would come up with more areas of agreements over disagreements when you boil things down to the common denominators.

Let’s take the fact/timing of the rapture. Instead of creating division wouldn’t it be wiser to try and follow a common wise course of action such as; all Christians should be ready to go and ready to stay depending on which way it plays out. It’s never wise to put all our eggs in one basket, prophetically speaking. If everyone were to follow that simple guideline than the worst case scenario on each end of the spectrum would be that we spent time and money on resources our unsaved loved ones could use or we aren’t shocked and surprised at the trials and tribulations that come our way and we will have the mental and spiritual fortitude to be willing martyrs if God so desires. Wouldn’t that make the Body of Christ stronger and more unified and closer to becoming a church w/o spot or wrinkle? If we tried, we could probably find all these common denominators in these divisions we call denominations and eliminate them so that we can truly be as one as our Lord commands.

You are absolutely correct when you say the Scriptures themself defines it own symbols. We do not need any "revelations" "feelings" "visions" or "quite voices" telling us what god meant.

The quote on understanding the bible is from Dr. David Cooper. It is the correct way of understanding the bible. god did not hide meanings gehind common sense words. He knows how "crazy" mankind is when given a chance.

Trekson · Mar 29, 2026

Zao is life said:
Yet you also assert - by your choices of words in the things you say - that even though so many disagree with you about the way you interpret prophetic scripture regarding Israel, its Messiah, and the Church, your thoughts are God's thoughts.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9).

According to you - but Jesus summed prophetic scripture up this way:

"The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." (Luke 16:16).

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." (John 5:39)

Your journey is not a qualification or a "Certificate of Correctness" with regard to your beliefs based on your interpretations of prophetic parts of scripture. There are those who have studied scripture a lot less decades than you who have deeper understanding than you - and they don't appeal to the length of time they have been studying scripture, or to their "qualifications in theology", or anything else.

Others, like myself, who disagree with your conclusions, also have decades of study of scripture.

Your appeal to your own studies is once again an appeal to be "right" and all those who understand the scripture better than you, to be wrong.

You can't make an appeal to having the Holy Spirit either - because everyone who belongs to Christ has the Holy Spirit - and many disagree with you and can see the flaws and error in your thinking. In fact, we all disagree with one another at some point.

For example, I can confidently say that it's clear to me how your own human understanding has blocked the teaching of the Holy Spirit with regard to a number of things written about in the prophetic books, and hence your thoughts are not God's thoughts - which does not qualify either my thoughts OR your thoughts as being God's thoughts.

There is only one kingdom of God @Trekson - and it's in Christ, because He is the elect of God - the seed first promised in Genesis 3:15. That's why Paul taught,

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Galatians 3:16)

You have just proved that you base your thinking and understanding on what other's say the Bible says instead of ONLY asking The Father to give you the understanding of His Word, as well as insight and the knowledge that you might need (cultural idioms etc), and then studying the scriptures for yourself without any thought for what others say the scriptures say.

Besides that, Pentecostal is a very bad basis IMO. Thankfully I attended two churches when I was saved: A Pentecostal / Charismatic church, and a conservative Baptist church (which was Calvinist). Both were wrong in certain respects (as all churches are wrong in certain respects) - but the Baptists at least did not read scripture from the pulpit and then still tell you it means what the words plainly do not mean, like the Pentecostals did. By now I have a good idea of what all the denominations and the Catholics and the Orthodox teach - and I don't agree with everything any of them say - let alone with everything one person says in a book he wrote!!

All along I studied the scriptures for myself from day 1 of having my eyes opened by God, and did not believe anything anyone said about what the Bible was saying. I certainly would not have bought any book expressing anyone else's interpretations - and the shelves in Christian bookstores is full of them - they are "Libraries of Personal Opinions" (such as yours). Rather, I bought books about 1st century Jewish culture, and history books that would aid me with knowledge I might need - while I prayed to God daily before reading / studying the Word, for understanding and insight

- and all along I have done so with the knowledge that I'm human and my own human understanding can block the teaching of the Holy Spirit

- as is clearly the case with your understanding - because many of the things that you say are not biblical

- but these things come only gradually, and the day you stopped growing in your knowledge and understanding of the Word of God and being able to have your mind changed by the Word of God about things you believe with respect to how certain passages should be interpreted, is the day you became set in your belief in a false doctrine + the false doctrines based on the same false premise that your own human understanding has decided is true.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9).

I doubt you are able - as your OP implies and asserts you are - to know where metaphor / symbolism ends and where what is literal begins in the prophetic books of the Bible. You have already made it obvious that you are not able to.

I know you think highly of yourself because you are doing the same thing you are accusing me of. You say you know more about these things then I do, pick a couple of topics and prove they are unbiblical. I tried to be open with you and you judged me for it. The accuracy of anyone's beliefs begins with foundations they build them upon and if one begins w/ a wrong foundation they can be very sincere but also sincerely wrong. God uses a multitude of ways to show us things sometimes from the pulpit or a song or someone's testimony, reading His word, the influence of the HS, reading books about the bible and learning other people's pov, the list can go on and on. A student of the bible can tell if they are in error or not. Show me what I said that you think was unbiblical and let's have an actual conversation. I haven't seen you offer anything to the contrary, you just like to say I'm wrong.

Trekson · Mar 29, 2026

ScottA said:
Fair enough.

Circling back, I suppose what I have reacted to, and find issue with, is the idea of "over emphasizing symbolism."

The problem with such an idea is that it goes against the very premise in which God has with creation. Considering the idea of symbolism being "over emphasized" after being created in the "image" of God in this created world, by God who has revealed by worldly things, that which is of heaven and not created or contrived--is absurd.

God's creation is symbolism--for it reveals what is actually real by what is merely created to reveal it.

Even every word of scripture is only (or moreover) symbolism, for every word "is spirit." And what is the whole creation but the manifestation of the word by "the Word"--"Word" itself or rather Himself, being symbolic of the One who has created all things.

Therefore, the idea of "over emphasizing symbolism" is like the idea that "over spiritualizing" is somehow wrong--because "God is spirit", and His every goal is that this mere creation be dissolved and we who have endured this great lesser created imagery who love him in spite of it all--is that we be "like Him"--spirit also. Making everything we know, a spiritual act of God--everything.

The problem as I see it, is our inability to comprehend such a great spiritual and symbolic act by God...so we often reject it. Is rejection not the great and repeated plot of history--His story about His dealings with us, and to save us? It is.

The spiritual is just as real as the physical and I disagree that everything is symbolic and yes there is such a thing as over spiritualizing. The prophecies that have been fulfilled have been literally fulfilled whether plain words or symbolism were used. With that as the background there is no reason that to believe that any unfulfilled prophecies won't be fulfilled in the same literal way. Jesus. the Word isn't symbolic of God, He is God as well, just as the HS is. It's all about unity.

Trekson · Mar 29, 2026

Ronald Nolette said:
You are absolutely correct when you say the Scriptures themself defines it own symbols. We do not need any "revelations" "feelings" "visions" or "quite voices" telling us what god meant.

The quote on understanding the bible is from Dr. David Cooper. It is the correct way of understanding the bible. god did not hide meanings gehind common sense words. He knows how "crazy" mankind is when given a chance.

Thank you for the info, but in all honesty, I doubt if I will remember it, the next time I use it. Hey, I'll change it now.

ScottA · Mar 29, 2026

Trekson said:
The spiritual is just as real as the physical and I disagree that everything is symbolic and yes there is such a thing as over spiritualizing. The prophecies that have been fulfilled have been literally fulfilled whether plain words or symbolism were used. With that as the background there is no reason that to believe that any unfulfilled prophecies won't be fulfilled in the same literal way. Jesus. the Word isn't symbolic of God, He is God as well, just as the HS is. It's all about unity.

What you have stated is against the Spirit. It is not this world and the acts that occur here that is literal--not to God, or in His terms--and these are His terms, not this world's.

But I understand, this is what we know as being born into it. But have we not also been born into the Spirit, and therefore should "change" our thinking--even "the renewing of your mind?" Has Jesus not prayed "as it is in heaven" and brought with Him the Spirit making the "change" our new reality to be honored, rather than continuing in the ways of this world which is passing away? That's not fulfillment--that's rejection! On the contrary, we should receive it and act accordingly--"like Him" who laid down His flesh, giving it to the church, saying follow Me, then ascending to be as the Father who is Spirit. He too stayed in this world until His last acts in the flesh were finished--but He walked in the spirit, not clinging to this would-be "literal" world.

But also, what "unfilled prophecies" do you refer to? I tell you--as did Jesus--all those things He [the Word and Author of all prophecy] spoke of were "finished" during that evil generation of whom He spoke the words. If you are not convinced and would like an example--just name one prophecy, and I will tell you how it was and is fulfilled in spirit, as these are not the former days of the flesh, but the days of the Spirit.

Trekson · Mar 29, 2026

ScottA said:
What you have stated is against the Spirit. It is not this world and the acts that occur here that is literal--not to God, or in His terms--and these are His terms, not this world's.

But I understand, this is what we know as being born into it. But have we not also been born into the Spirit, and therefore should "change" our thinking--even "the renewing of your mind?" Has Jesus not prayed "as it is in heaven" and brought with Him the Spirit making the "change" our new reality to be honored, rather than continuing in the ways of this world which is passing away? That's not fulfillment--that's rejection! On the contrary, we should receive it and act accordingly--"like Him" who laid down His flesh, giving it to the church, saying follow Me, then ascending to be as the Father who is Spirit. He too stayed in this world until His last acts in the flesh were finished--but He walked in the spirit, not clinging to this would-be "literal" world.

But also, what "unfilled prophecies" do you refer to? I tell you--as did Jesus--all those things He [the Word and author of all prophecy] spoke of were "finished" during that evil generation to He spoke the words. If you are not convinced and would like an example--just name one prophecy, and I will tell you how it was and is fulfilled in spirit, as these are the former days of the flesh, but the days of the Spirit.

Hmmm, let's start w/ Matt. 23:38-39 - "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." In vs. 38 Christ is prophesying about 70ad. In vs. 39, He is speaking of the national repentance from Dan. 9:24 and Zech. 12:10 and the multiple OT prophecies that speak of the restoration of the nation of Israel, prior to receiving the millennial blessings.

Marilyn C · Mar 30, 2026

ScottA said:
But also, what "unfilled prophecies" do you refer to? I tell you--as did Jesus--all those things He [the Word and author of all prophecy] spoke of were "finished" during that evil generation to He spoke the words. If you are not convinced and would like an example--just name one prophecy, and I will tell you how it was and is fulfilled in spirit, as these are the former days of the flesh, but the days of the Spirit.

Hi Scott,

Ez. 38 & 39 Joel 2 & 3 and also the Feasts of trumpets, Atonement, and Tabernacles are still to be fulfilled.

soberxp · Mar 30, 2026

proverbs
26:25 When he speaketh fair, believe him not: for there are seven abominations in his heart.

26:26 Whose hatred is covered by deceit, his wickedness shall be shewed before the whole congregation.

26:27 Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein: and he that rolleth a stone, it will return upon him.

26:28 A lying tongue hateth those that are afflicted by it; and a flattering mouth worketh ruin.

6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

The Ten Commandments

"Seven head" of seven are an abomination unto him: and "ten kings" of break the Ten Commandments.

ScottA · Mar 30, 2026

Trekson said:
Hmmm, let's start w/ Matt. 23:38-39 - "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." In vs. 38 Christ is prophesying about 70ad. In vs. 39, He is speaking of the national repentance from Dan. 9:24 and Zech. 12:10 and the multiple OT prophecies that speak of the restoration of the nation of Israel, prior to receiving the millennial blessings.

First, sorry, I spotted a typo in the last sentence in my last post, and corrected it. I meant to write: "...these are [not] the former days of the flesh, but the days of the Spirit."

As for Matthew 23:38-39, No Jesus was not prophesying about 70ad, but was giving the state of things at that moment--the spiritual state of their house--which would only physically seem to be referring to some time about the end of that evil generation. But the house of Israel that Jesus referred to, was that house that Moses has set "life and death, blessing and cursing" before, of which He was "the End." The word "desolate" in this circumstance, is defined as: "bereft - 1) of a flock deserted by the shepherd, 2) of a woman neglected by her husband, from whom the husband withholds himself.

As for Dan. 9:24, No, Daniel's prophecy speaks all of Daniel's people--since Adam, and including the [spiritual] children of Abraham, as numerous "the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore." The reference to "seventy" is the full measure of man, being 10 from among all seven days of God's creation.

As for Zechariah 12:10, the prophecy is of the house of Israel mourning to see the Son of God whom they pierced, coming in the clouds (in heaven) just after Jesus said, "It is finished" and "gave up His spirit"--to them. In dying on the cross, He gave his flesh to the church--saying, "take, eat, this is my body"; and His spirit He gave to Israel.

ScottA · Mar 30, 2026

Marilyn C said:
Hi Scott,

Ez. 38 & 39 Joel 2 & 3 and also the Feasts of trumpets, Atonement, and Tabernacles are still to be fulfilled.

Ezekiel 38 and 39 are not future, but are a revelation--from before the foundation of the world, revealed in the fullness of time--in the times of this world from beginning to end. It is against Satan, who comes against all who are born into this world.

As for Joel 2 and 3, No, it is not future, but is regards the Day of the Lord--which is "today"--again, for all born into this world. Which was manifest on the Lord's day--that day of His coming, and of His crucifixion--the darkest of days.

As for the Feasts, No, they too are only made manifest, the Trumpets sounding in the creation of this world; the Atonement at the cross; and the Tabernacles are these bodies of flesh, since Adam.

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