Symbolism

Trekson · Mar 30, 2026

ScottA said:
First, sorry, I spotted a typo in the last sentence in my last post, and corrected it. I meant to write: "...these are [not] the former days of the flesh, but the days of the Spirit."

As for Matthew 23:38-39, No Jesus was not prophesying about 70ad, but was giving the state of things at that moment--the spiritual state of their house--which would only physically seem to be referring to some time about the end of that evil generation. But the house of Israel that Jesus referred to, was that house that Moses has set "life and death, blessing and cursing" before, of which He was "the End." The word "desolate" in this circumstance, is defined as: "bereft - 1) of a flock deserted by the shepherd, 2) of a woman neglected by her husband, from whom the husband withholds himself.

As for Dan. 9:24, No, Daniel's prophecy speaks all of Daniel's people--since Adam, and including the [spiritual] children of Abraham, as numerous "the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore." The reference to "seventy" is the full measure of man, being 10 from among all seven days of God's creation.

As for Zechariah 12:10, the prophecy is of the house of Israel mourning to see the Son of God whom they pierced, coming in the clouds (in heaven) just after Jesus said, "It is finished" and "gave up His spirit"--to them. In dying on the cross, He gave his flesh to the church--saying, "take, eat, this is my body"; and His spirit He gave to Israel.

You just made my point, when one tries to symbolize everything, one loses sight of reality. The angel tells Daniel what the 70 "weeks" stand for and the angel is repeating what God told him to tell Daniel. History has confirmed this as it was 483 years (69 weeks) until the crucifixion, the 70th week never began. Your interpretation of Dan. 9:24 is senseless and contrary to what God said.

Zao is life · Mar 30, 2026

Trekson said:
I know you think highly of yourself

There you go. The word "know" comes out of your mouth. Only God knows whether or not I think highly of myself, and if I think highly of myself, how highly. That's why I won't accuse you of the same - because I know I can't because I know I'm not God.

Trekson said:
because you are doing the same thing you are accusing me of.

When I criticize what you are saying, I go according to what you said, discussing what you said.

Trekson said:
You say you know more about these things then I do

I said nothing of the sort. I said you do not know more about these things than others do, as your protest in your OP implies.

I said you and I do not know more about these things than God does - but unlike you, I know that my human understanding is quite capable of blocking the teaching of the Holy Spirit. You still seem a lifetime away from learning that humbling fact.

Trekson said:
Pick a couple of topics and prove they are unbiblical.

You ought to do that - instead of making general statements about "what is wrong" with the understanding of anyone who disagrees with you, as in your OP - which is what I have been replying to you about.

Trekson said:
I tried to be open with you and you judged me for it.

Nope, I cannot judge you - even if I did want to (which I certainly dont). The truth is I judge you as a believer in Jesus who belongs to Christ who holds false views regarding eschatology and wants to "explain why" whoever disagrees with him "is wrong". Your OP was a judgment of the opinions of whoever disagrees with your understanding of where symbolism and metpaor ends, and what is literal begins in prophetic portions of scripture.

Let's stick to your OP and your words in your OP.

You clearly do not appreciate any disagreement on the things you say. You don't like being challenged when you make general sweeping statements (as in your OP) about what is "wrong" with the interpretation of prophetic scripture those who disagree with you apparently suffer from.

Trekson said:
The accuracy of anyone's beliefs begins with foundations they build them upon and if one begins w/ a wrong foundation they can be very sincere but also sincerely wrong.

.. but in your case this does not apply?

Trekson said:
God uses a multitude of ways to show us things sometimes from the pulpit or a song or someone's testimony, reading His word, the influence of the HS, reading books about the bible and learning other people's pov, the list can go on and on.

Yes. At least we agree on something, except about your boasting about reading what others say about what the Bible says - because there are thousands of such authors, and they contradict one another. Also, the Holy Spirit will teach you primarly through His own words written in scripture. Looking outside too much causes development of false beliefs about the rapture and about Israel.

Trekson said:
A student of the bible can tell if they are in error or not.

If a student of the Bible can tell when someone is in error or not about any subject, why is it that when students of the Bible point out your error, you even post OP's like this to show why they are wrong and you are right?

I'm a student of the Bible and I'm not the only person posting in these boards who can tell that you are in error about how you interpret the rapture and Israel and about whether or not a particular prophecy has already been fulfilled IN CHRIST and through Christ.

Trekson said:
I haven't seen you offer anything to the contrary, you just like to say I'm wrong.

I answered only your OP and what you said in your OP, and said a lot to the contrary - because the fact is that your OP is placed up with an implication inherent in it, which can be summed up as

"This is the error those make who disagree with me about when what is written in prophecy is literal and when it is symbolic - but I never make the same error because I'm incapable of it".

There are specific examples of specific prophecies in some of the many other threads you have started in these boards - but in your OP you gave no speciic examples of specific scriptures. You were just generalizing and applying your generalzations to others (specifically anyone who disagrees with you), but not to yourself. The only specific example you gave was a place where no one disagrees with you about the metpahor being explained in the same scripture it appears:

Symbolism explained: Rev. 17:9 - “…The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.”
Rev. 17:12 - “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings…”
Rev. 17:18 - “.”And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.

Trekson said:
Show me what I said that you think was unbiblical and let's have an actual conversation.

Regarding your assertions about "what is wrong" with the way others who disagree with you interpret scripture I have already done so - but you don't seem to like being challenged.

Show me that what you think about the way others (namely those who disagree with your interpretations) are wong and why they are wrong (as per your OP) is biblical, and let's have an actual conversation.

Trekson · Mar 30, 2026

Zao is life said:
There you go. The word "know" comes out of your mouth. Only God knows whether or not I think highly of myself, and if I think highly of myself, how highly. That's why I won't accuse you of the same - because I know I can't because I know I'm not God.

When I criticize what you are saying, I go according to what you said, discussing what you said.

I said nothing of the sort. I said you do not know more about these things than others do, as your protest in your OP implies.

I said you and I do not know more about these things than God does - but unlike you, I know that my human understanding is quite capable of blocking the teaching of the Holy Spirit. You still seem a lifetime away from learning that humbling fact.

You ought to do that - instead of making general statements about "what is wrong" with the understanding of anyone who disagrees with you, as in your OP - which is what I have been replying to you about.

Nope, I cannot judge you - even if I did want to (which I certainly dont). The truth is I judge you as a believer in Jesus who belongs to Christ who holds false views regarding eschatology and wants to "explain why" whoever disagrees with him "is wrong". Your OP was a judgment of the opinions of whoever disagrees with your understanding of where symbolism and metpaor ends, and what is literal begins in prophetic portions of scripture.

Let's stick to your OP and your words in your OP.

You clearly do not appreciate any disagreement on the things you say. You don't like being challenged when you make general sweeping statements (as in your OP) about what is "wrong" with the interpretation of prophetic scripture those who disagree with you apparently suffer from.

.. but in your case this does not apply?

Yes. At least we agree on something, except about your boasting about reading what others say about what the Bible says - because there are thousands of such authors, and they contradict one another. Also, the Holy Spirit will teach you primarly through His own words written in scripture. Looking outside too much causes development of false beliefs about the rapture and about Israel.

If a student of the Bible can tell when someone is in error or not about any subject, why is it that when students of the Bible point out your error, you even post OP's like this to show why they are wrong and you are right?

I'm a student of the Bible and I'm not the only person posting in these boards who can tell that you are in error about how you interpret the rapture and Israel and about whether or not a particular prophecy has already been fulfilled IN CHRIST and through Christ.

I answered only your OP and what you said in your OP, and said a lot to the contrary - because the fact is that your OP is placed up with an implication inherent in it, which can be summed up as

"This is the error those make who disagree with me about when what is written in prophecy is literal and when it is symbolic - but I never make the same error because I'm incapable of it".

There are specific examples of specific prophecies in some of the many other threads you have started in these boards - but in your OP you gave no speciic examples of specific scriptures. You were just generalizing and applying your generalzations to others (specifically anyone who disagrees with you), but not to yourself. The only specific example you gave was a place where no one disagrees with you about the metpahor being explained in the same scripture it appears:

Symbolism explained: Rev. 17:9 - “…The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.”
Rev. 17:12 - “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings…”
Rev. 17:18 - “.”And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.

Regarding your assertions about "what is wrong" with the way others who disagree with you interpret scripture I have already done so - but you don't seem to like being challenged.

Show me that what you think about the way others (namely those who disagree with your interpretations) are wong and why they are wrong (as per your OP) is biblical, and let's have an actual conversation.

No, you don't point out my error, you claim that yours is correct as if you had greater knowledge which is highly questionable. We both have our opinions and if you want to take a couple of topics and discuss them fine, however I am 100% correct that trying to fit symbolism everywhere is 100 % wrong as ScottA does. Yes, symbolism is used but they describe literal things and history, common sense and the HS shows us how to rightly divide the word of truth between them. You never bring up specifics and discussing things where we disagree is called debating which is the purpose of this site. If you say something about a specific topic I that I don't agree with, I will let you know and show scriptures why. Just in case this is something you consider, the word "signified" in Rev. 1 doesn't mean "symbolized" it means "authenticated" as w/ a signet ring.

Ronald Nolette · Mar 30, 2026

ScottA said:
What you have stated is against the Spirit. It is not this world and the acts that occur here that is literal--not to God, or in His terms--and these are His terms, not this world's.

But I understand, this is what we know as being born into it. But have we not also been born into the Spirit, and therefore should "change" our thinking--even "the renewing of your mind?" Has Jesus not prayed "as it is in heaven" and brought with Him the Spirit making the "change" our new reality to be honored, rather than continuing in the ways of this world which is passing away? That's not fulfillment--that's rejection! On the contrary, we should receive it and act accordingly--"like Him" who laid down His flesh, giving it to the church, saying follow Me, then ascending to be as the Father who is Spirit. He too stayed in this world until His last acts in the flesh were finished--but He walked in the spirit, not clinging to this would-be "literal" world.

But also, what "unfilled prophecies" do you refer to? I tell you--as did Jesus--all those things He [the Word and Author of all prophecy] spoke of were "finished" during that evil generation of whom He spoke the words. If you are not convinced and would like an example--just name one prophecy, and I will tell you how it was and is fulfilled in spirit, as these are not the former days of the flesh, but the days of the Spirit.

Sorry Scott, But changing our way of thinking means stop thinking carnally and start thinking from the Word of God! It does not mean we change the definitions of theWords of Scripture for some "deep spiritual meaning". that is the way of the Kabbalists and mystics and cultists.

ScottA · Mar 30, 2026

Trekson said:
You just made my point, when one tries to symbolize everything, one loses sight of reality. The angel tells Daniel what the 70 "weeks" stand for and the angel is repeating what God told him to tell Daniel. History has confirmed this as it was 483 years (69 weeks) until the crucifixion, the 70th week never began. Your interpretation of Dan. 9:24 is senseless and contrary to what God said.

I did not make "your" point, nor am I sparring translations with you. I am correcting you--a biblical measure appointed for these times.

What you and nearly all of Christendom have assumed is that there is a week yet to come from the "seventy weeks" in Danial's prophecy--and that it is even a prophecy of the kind you assume it is. Let's start with that--with how most assume prophecy works:

The answer to what is actual correct regarding any and all prophecy, is what was revealed with Christ being "the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world." Men see Christ crucified in the midst of time and history, have simply failed to conceive or comprehend the idea of it happening before the world began. That is also the failure of Daniel's so-called "seventieth week."

How most assume that prophecy works, is that a prophecy is given at one point within the times of this world, about a future time in this world. How worldly! But how it really works is that all things are not worldly, but are merely revealed worldly--those events of prophecy however are all from before the world began, and are only revealed in the world in the order of God's timing for their revealing. Which is not those actual events, but the manifestation of them. In other words, what most consider the prophecies pointing to Christ coming (for example) within scripture from a previous time--those too occurred first before the foundation of the world, and are merely part of God"s revealing all things “Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little.”

Wherein, there is actually no Daniel's "seventieth week"--men only assumed it.

The angel who spoke to Daniel did not leave anything out to be assumed--men added it.

What the angel spoke of was "sixty-two weeks" and "seven weeks", reiterating the "seventy weeks", which is indeed referring to the total--but rather the total of all time--from Adam unto the end of time...the manifestation of the six days of creation, also stated as "a time, times." Which he stated fully in chapters 7 and 12, with the addition of "and half a time." --It's all the same prophecy. But what is missing is not a seventieth week--it's "the seventh day"--that day God rested in the foreshadowing revelation of all things that were before the foundation of the world. What was foretold and to be revealed--though not comprehended--was that the so-called seventieth week of Daniel, was not "To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy." All those things were not after the end of time, but before--while what is after, is God's rest.

If you are willing--if you have questions about the greater details I am happy to elaborate or explain.

ScottA · Mar 30, 2026

Ronald Nolette said:
Sorry Scott, But changing our way of thinking means stop thinking carnally and start thinking from the Word of God! It does not mean we change the definitions of theWords of Scripture for some "deep spiritual meaning". that is the way of the Kabbalists and mystics and cultists.

The correct term would be "higher spiritual meaning."

Are you sure you want to say that the truth of God has no higher meaning than the scriptures show at face value?

Zao is life · Mar 30, 2026

Trekson said:
No, you don't point out my error, you claim that yours is correct ..

LoL. I'm talking about your OP (not mine) where you say nothing specific except the three examples of where the symbolism explained by the text exists - which those you claim disagree with you, actually agree with you about.

All you did was make sweeping general statements, so how can I be specific in replying to your own post?

Trekson said:
The definition of “symbolism” is “the practice of representing things by means of symbols or of attributing symbolic meanings or significance to objects, events or relationships.”

Yes. And?

Trekson said:
In my opinion, those who interpret scripture, especially prophetic scriptures emphasizing symbolism are off track.

You give no specific examples. Just a general sweeping statement. Why don't you rather quote a passage of scripture and discuss that?

Trekson said:
There is no denying that scripture uses symbolism or symbolic language occasionally but usually it defines it within the context. Ex. Rev.17:3 - “So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.”

Symbolism explained: Rev. 17:9 - “…The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.”
Rev. 17:12 - “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings…”
Rev. 17:18 - “.”And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.

Rev. 1:12, 16 use symbolic language but they are explained in Rev. 1:20.

No one - including those elusive people you began to talk about, disagrees with you about the above metaphor / symbols being defined in the same text (Revelation 17). Same goes for Revelation 1:12, 16.

You do not give any explanation as to why you bring it up in the context of complaining about others being off track. You just make a general, sweeping statement and then go ahead with your own strawman argument:

Trekson said:
The problem with over emphasizing symbolism is that the possibilities become endless. Trying to find real truth depending on symbolism is like chasing unicorns and leprechauns. You might get lucky, but I wouldn’t bet my life on it, which some of these people do.

No examples. Just a strawman argument.

Trekson said:
To me, there is only one logical way to discern the bible. I like this “Golden Rule of Interpreting Bible Prophecy” - “When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense, but take every word at its primary, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context clearly indicate otherwise.” (I was told this quote goes back to a Dr. David Cooper)

The quote is no proof that anyone who you are complaining about does not have the discernment to know where metaphor / symbolism ends and what is literal begins.

It's just a monologue containing general, sweeping statements - yet you want me to give specifics in my replies to your no specifics. You're joking, right?

Trekson said:
Symbolism also makes up its own rules like: a word once used symbolically must always be considered in its symbolic sense when used again. SDA’s do this with their “year for a day principle” which isn’t a “principle” at all.

OOHHHH so your OP is all about what SDA's do with a day for a year. Why didn't you say so in the first place?

Trekson said:
Usually, if such a symbolic timeline is given, the scriptures say so within the context, and should only be considered within that context, not applied to every other prophetic timeline given.

So who aside from SDA's is it who disagrees - who you were complaining about in your general, sweeping statements about these elusive people who are off track?

Trekson said:
Mostly, it’s no big deal but problems arise when one feels symbolism lends itself to generalities or vagueness. We must ask ourselves, what is the precedent that God gave us when we look back upon fulfilled prophecy? I would say the vast majority of fulfilled prophecy has been pretty specific and mostly literal once the symbolic language is understood.

No examples again. No scripture taken and spoken about. Just general, sweeping statements in a monologue. Meaningless.

No one would disagree with the statement "the vast majority of fulfilled prophecy has been pretty specific and mostly literal once the symbolic language is understood." - so who are you complaining about as being "off track"?

Trekson said:
To use symbolism to define, let’s say the Revelation, as a prophecy of general good times and bad times continuously repeating themselves is at best careless and at worst foolish, considering the record we have to follow.

No quotes given where anyone has said that. Just another general, sweeping statement. Utterly meaningless.

Trekson said:
God isn’t vague

You certainly are.

Anyway God deliberately speaks in parables so that those who have ears to hear will hear, and the rest won't. Parables often contain metaphor and symbolism. You can call it God speaking "cryptically" - as He does in the Revelation. That's why Jesus so often repeats the words "he who has ears to hear, let him hear."

Trekson said:
and He hasn’t used the symbolic languages to try and cloak the end-times in some veiled mystery

He certainly has done so - in order to veil it from those who do not have ears to hear.

Trekson said:
He left us to decipher.

See how you contradict yourself. If God "hasn’t used metaphor and symbolism in order to veil the end times" then what's to decipher?

Trekson said:
The bible tells us that His sheep know His voice and the Holy Spirit is the one that brings all things to our understanding.

No one disagrees with the above statement. What is your point?

Trekson said:
The question becomes then, why do His sheep have multitudes of answers to the prophetic equations?

It's because like you, His sheep have human minds that often block the teaching of the Holy Spirit, and so they do not hear when the sheep who do have the correct understanding, correct their views.

But like you, each sheep thinks He understands correctly.

Trekson said:
It’s really not that hard to understand and not really that far apart. If you were to measure the amount of agreements between different aspects of eschatology I think you would come up with more areas of agreements over disagreements when you boil things down to the common denominators.

So then you are off-track in your complaint about others being off-track.

Trekson said:
Let’s take the fact/timing of the rapture.

Trekson said:
Instead of creating division

What division?

Trekson said:
It’s never wise to put all our eggs in one basket, prophetically speaking.

So why do you put all your eggs in your own basket?

Trekson said:
If everyone were to follow that simple guideline

Trekson said:
Wouldn’t that make the Body of Christ stronger and more unified

That is what community is for - the congregation of the saints. Why are you making that point in the context of a Christian debate forum - in the eschatology / end times board, no less, where you are complaining that others are off track?

You make NO sense. What am I supposed to be specific about when your OP is a nothing-burger?

Spiritual Israelite · Mar 30, 2026

Zao is life said:
OOHHHH so your OP is all about what SDA's do with a day for a year. Why didn't you say so in the first place?

Yeah, he should have led with that so that we'd know why he created this thread.

Trekson · Mar 30, 2026

Some of your quot

Zao is life said:
There you go. The word "know" comes out of your mouth. Only God knows whether or not I think highly of myself, and if I think highly of myself, how highly. That's why I won't accuse you of the same - because I know I can't because I know I'm not God.

When I criticize what you are saying, I go according to what you said, discussing what you said.

I said nothing of the sort. I said you do not know more about these things than others do, as your protest in your OP implies.

I said you and I do not know more about these things than God does - but unlike you, I know that my human understanding is quite capable of blocking the teaching of the Holy Spirit. You still seem a lifetime away from learning that humbling fact.

You ought to do that - instead of making general statements about "what is wrong" with the understanding of anyone who disagrees with you, as in your OP - which is what I have been replying to you about.

Nope, I cannot judge you - even if I did want to (which I certainly dont). The truth is I judge you as a believer in Jesus who belongs to Christ who holds false views regarding eschatology and wants to "explain why" whoever disagrees with him "is wrong". Your OP was a judgment of the opinions of whoever disagrees with your understanding of where symbolism and metpaor ends, and what is literal begins in prophetic portions of scripture.

Let's stick to your OP and your words in your OP.

You clearly do not appreciate any disagreement on the things you say. You don't like being challenged when you make general sweeping statements (as in your OP) about what is "wrong" with the interpretation of prophetic scripture those who disagree with you apparently suffer from.

.. but in your case this does not apply?

Yes. At least we agree on something, except about your boasting about reading what others say about what the Bible says - because there are thousands of such authors, and they contradict one another. Also, the Holy Spirit will teach you primarly through His own words written in scripture. Looking outside too much causes development of false beliefs about the rapture and about Israel.

If a student of the Bible can tell when someone is in error or not about any subject, why is it that when students of the Bible point out your error, you even post OP's like this to show why they are wrong and you are right?

I'm a student of the Bible and I'm not the only person posting in these boards who can tell that you are in error about how you interpret the rapture and Israel and about whether or not a particular prophecy has already been fulfilled IN CHRIST and through Christ.

I answered only your OP and what you said in your OP, and said a lot to the contrary - because the fact is that your OP is placed up with an implication inherent in it, which can be summed up as

"This is the error those make who disagree with me about when what is written in prophecy is literal and when it is symbolic - but I never make the same error because I'm incapable of it".

There are specific examples of specific prophecies in some of the many other threads you have started in these boards - but in your OP you gave no speciic examples of specific scriptures. You were just generalizing and applying your generalzations to others (specifically anyone who disagrees with you), but not to yourself. The only specific example you gave was a place where no one disagrees with you about the metpahor being explained in the same scripture it appears:

Symbolism explained: Rev. 17:9 - “…The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.”
Rev. 17:12 - “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings…”
Rev. 17:18 - “.”And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.

Regarding your assertions about "what is wrong" with the way others who disagree with you interpret scripture I have already done so - but you don't seem to like being challenged.

Show me that what you think about the way others (namely those who disagree with your interpretations) are wong and why they are wrong (as per your OP) is biblical, and let's have an actual conversation. your quotes, "why is it that when students of the Bible point out your error,"

ScottA said:
I did not make "your" point, nor am I sparring translations with you. I am correcting you--a biblical measure appointed for these times.

What you and nearly all of Christendom have assumed is that there is a week yet to come from the "seventy weeks" in Danial's prophecy--and that it is even a prophecy of the kind you assume it is. Let's start with that--with how most assume prophecy works:

The answer to what is actual correct regarding any and all prophecy, is what was revealed with Christ being "the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world." Men see Christ crucified in the midst of time and history, have simply failed to conceive or comprehend the idea of it happening before the world began. That is also the failure of Daniel's so-called "seventieth week."

How most assume that prophecy works, is that a prophecy is given at one point within the times of this world, about a future time in this world. How worldly! But how it really works is that all things are not worldly, but are merely revealed worldly--those events of prophecy however are all from before the world began, and are only revealed in the world in the order of God's timing for their revealing. Which is not those actual events, but the manifestation of them. In other words, what most consider the prophecies pointing to Christ coming (for example) within scripture from a previous time--those too occurred first before the foundation of the world, and are merely part of God"s revealing all things “Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little.”

Wherein, there is actually no Daniel's "seventieth week"--men only assumed it.

The angel who spoke to Daniel did not leave anything out to be assumed--men added it.

What the angel spoke of was "sixty-two weeks" and "seven weeks", reiterating the "seventy weeks", which is indeed referring to the total--but rather the total of all time--from Adam unto the end of time...the manifestation of the six days of creation, also stated as "a time, times." Which he stated fully in chapters 7 and 12, with the addition of "and half a time." --It's all the same prophecy. But what is missing is not a seventieth week--it's "the seventh day"--that day God rested in the foreshadowing revelation of all things that were before the foundation of the world. What was foretold and to be revealed--though not comprehended--was that the so-called seventieth week of Daniel, was not "To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy." All those things were not after the end of time, but before--while what is after, is God's rest.

If you are willing--if you have questions about the greater details I am happy to elaborate or explain.

Did they occur previously? No. Did God have foreknowledge of all the event that will occur before they happened and that's because God dwells in the past, present and future at the same time. He is beyond time itself and He created the concept of time for man's benefit. Imo, countable time didn't actually exist until after the fall.

Trekson · Mar 30, 2026

Zao is life said:
LoL. I'm talking about your OP (not mine) where you say nothing specific except the three examples of where the symbolism explained by the text exists - which those you claim disagree with you, actually agree with you about.

All you did was make sweeping general statements, so how can I be specific in replying to your own post?

Yes. And?

You give no specific examples. Just a general sweeping statement. Why don't you rather quote a passage of scripture and discuss that?

No one - including those elusive people you began to talk about, disagrees with you about the above metaphor / symbols being defined in the same text (Revelation 17). Same goes for Revelation 1:12, 16.

You do not give any explanation as to why you bring it up in the context of complaining about others being off track. You just make a general, sweeping statement and then go ahead with your own strawman argument:

No examples. Just a strawman argument.

The quote is no proof that anyone who you are complaining about does not have the discernment to know where metaphor / symbolism ends and what is literal begins.

It's just a monologue containing general, sweeping statements - yet you want me to give specifics in my replies to your no specifics. You're joking, right?

OOHHHH so your OP is all about what SDA's do with a day for a year. Why didn't you say so in the first place?

So who aside from SDA's is it who disagrees - who you were complaining about in your general, sweeping statements about these elusive people who are off track?

No examples again. No scripture taken and spoken about. Just general, sweeping statements in a monologue. Meaningless.

No one would disagree with the statement "the vast majority of fulfilled prophecy has been pretty specific and mostly literal once the symbolic language is understood." - so who are you complaining about as being "off track"?

No quotes given where anyone has said that. Just another general, sweeping statement. Utterly meaningless.

You certainly are.

Anyway God deliberately speaks in parables so that those who have ears to hear will hear, and the rest won't. Parables often contain metaphor and symbolism. You can call it God speaking "cryptically" - as He does in the Revelation. That's why Jesus so often repeats the words "he who has ears to hear, let him hear."

He certainly has done so - in order to veil it from those who do not have ears to hear.

See how you contradict yourself. If God "hasn’t used metaphor and symbolism in order to veil the end times" then what's to decipher?

No one disagrees with the above statement. What is your point?

It's because like you, His sheep have human minds that often block the teaching of the Holy Spirit, and so they do not hear when the sheep who do have the correct understanding, correct their views.

But like you, each sheep thinks He understands correctly.

So then you are off-track in your complaint about others being off-track.

What division?

So why do you put all your eggs in your own basket?

That is what community is for - the congregation of the saints. Why are you making that point in the context of a Christian debate forum - in the eschatology / end times board, no less, where you are complaining that others are off track?

You make NO sense. What am I supposed to be specific about when your OP is a nothing-burger?

I assume you know what I'm talking about so give me a biblical example of how a literal prophecy was symbolically fulfilled or of a symbolic prophecy that was symbolically fulfilled w/o making something up and then declaring it a fulfillment. To me, when symbolism is used, it's closer to a parable than anything else. You do a lot of complaining. I've offered scriptural examples yet you have "showed" me nothing that shows your opinion to be more valid then mine.

Zao is life · Mar 31, 2026

Trekson said:
I assume you know what I'm talking about so give me a biblical example of how a literal prophecy was symbolically fulfilled or of a symbolic prophecy that was symbolically fulfilled w/o making something up and then declaring it a fulfillment. To me, when symbolism is used, it's closer to a parable than anything else. You do a lot of complaining. I've offered scriptural examples yet you have "showed" me nothing that shows your opinion to be more valid then mine.

Everyone knows that there is no such thing as a "symbolic" prophecy. Your OP and your above post implies that there are many Christians who believe that there is such a thing.

Metaphor and symbolism (which often includes hyperbole) represents either events, or some other reality, or in some cases, both. Everyone knows that, and there are many, many examples throughout prophetic scripture and in the Psalms. Christ is coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. The clouds are symbolic, they are a metaphor.

Your OP and above post are both ridiculous and seems to be meant to imply that only you know what you are talking about - even though in some cases, you do not. For example, scripture does not talk about resurrected saints (Jews and Gentiles) dwelling bodily "in heaven" for a thousand years while Christ turns His attention to "a remnant of Jews who will repent" when He appears in the clouds to gather His elect. All your OP does is make general, sweeping statements and apply them to anyone who understands the metaphor and symbols found in prophetic books, differently to you - and in some cases, better than you.

But YOU give no examples. It's YOUR assertion and the onus is on YOU to bring up specific passages of scripture where symbolism is used to discuss what or who/m the symbolism or metaphor is referring to.

Trekson · Mar 31, 2026

Zao is life said:
Everyone knows that there is no such thing as a "symbolic" prophecy. Your OP and your above post implies that there are many Christians who believe that there is such a thing.

Metaphor and symbolism (which often includes hyperbole) represents either events, or some other reality, or in some cases, both. Everyone knows that, and there are many, many examples throughout prophetic scripture and in the Psalms. Christ is coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. The clouds are symbolic, they are a metaphor.

Your OP and above post are both ridiculous and seems to be meant to imply that only you know what you are talking about - even though in some cases, you do not. For example, scripture does not talk about resurrected saints (Jews and Gentiles) dwelling bodily "in heaven" for a thousand years while Christ turns His attention to "a remnant of Jews who will repent" when He appears in the clouds to gather His elect. All your OP does is make general, sweeping statements and apply them to anyone who understands the metaphor and symbols found in prophetic books, differently to you - and in some cases, better than you.

But YOU give no examples. It's YOUR assertion and the onus is on YOU to bring up specific passages of scripture where symbolism is used to discuss what or who/m the symbolism or metaphor is referring to.

In Acts 1:9 the bible says "that a cloud rec'd him out of their sight". I don't find that hard to believe as he was taken "up". Acts 1:11 the angels say "He will return in like manner" which would be w/ the clouds. In Matt.24:30 it says "He is coming in the clouds of heaven". The word "heaven" here simply means the sky or air. Why in the world would you assume it to be a metaphor and symbolic and not literal truth? If we are in heaven and Christ is on earth, that doesn't mean we are "apart" from Christ, just as we aren't today. The bible says we are "one" w/ Christ now. In our perfected bodies, in a different realm that "unity" will be so much stronger, we will only be a thought away, traveling back and forth to earth in the "blink of an eye". There will more than a remnant of Jews, it's quite possible that the "all" of remnant Israel will be resurrected to earth, not heaven, plus a great deal of gentiles as well, based on the "sheep and goat" judgment which actually is symbolic and a prophecy.

ScottA · Mar 31, 2026

Trekson said:
Some of your quot

Did they occur previously? No. Did God have foreknowledge of all the event that will occur before they happened and that's because God dwells in the past, present and future at the same time. He is beyond time itself and He created the concept of time for man's benefit. Imo, countable time didn't actually exist until after the fall.

What is "foreknowledge" to One who "is the same yesterday, today, and forever?" --You are thinking like a man. Why should I even warn you, but I have--or why should I offer to build on what you have when you have rejected the "finish" superstructure?

What you say above regarding time and God is an oxymoron. This world is not a creation of God overseeing time as from time to time--it is "silence in heaven"--"emptiness" wherein God has revealed the illusion of which men have come to live by and worship "vanity" by worldly terms, to their own peril! It was not suppose to become you, or you it--you were to merely "endure" it to the end.

The offer is still open. Ask.

Spiritual Israelite · Mar 31, 2026

Trekson said:
In Acts 1:9 the bible says "that a cloud rec'd him out of their sight". I don't find that hard to believe as he was taken "up". Acts 1:11 the angels say "He will return in like manner" which would be w/ the clouds. In Matt.24:30 it says "He is coming in the clouds of heaven".

Why are you turning "a cloud" (singular) into clouds (plural)? In Daniel 7:13-14, which refers to Jesus's ascension to heaven, the clouds of heaven represent angels.

Daniel 7:13 “I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.

This says the clouds of heaven brought Jesus to God the Father, so it's obviously not talking about literal clouds here.

Davidpt · Mar 31, 2026

Trekson said:
Imo, countable time didn't actually exist until after the fall.

Maybe you are dogmatic about that, maybe you're not.

The following contradicts that since it is meaning before the fall ever took place.

Genesis 1:14 ¶And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Not to mention, there can't be night and day without countable time cycles.

I don't know why you need countable time not starting until the fall of man?

Take the following as well.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

It would be absurd to argue that Adam is not yet living at this point. But since he clearly is alive and living at this point, we then know the following is meaning from the moment he was formed and became a living soul, to the time of his death.

Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died

Not 930 years since the fall. 930 years since Genesis 2:7.

On a side note: Something maybe of interest. 1000 years - 930 years = 70 years---the number 70 being the point. For example, the number 70 is connected with Daniel's 70 weeks of years. The number 70 is connected with serving the king of Babylon seventy years. So on and so on.

Davidpt · Mar 31, 2026

Spiritual Israelite said:
Why are you turning "a cloud" (singular) into clouds (plural)? In Daniel 7:13-14, which refers to Jesus's ascension to heaven, the clouds of heaven represent angels.

Daniel 7:13 “I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.

This says the clouds of heaven brought Jesus to God the Father, so it's obviously not talking about literal clouds here.

I fully agree.

marks · Mar 31, 2026

Trekson said:
He is beyond time itself and He created the concept of time for man's benefit. Imo, countable time didn't actually exist until after the fall.

I'm wondering about your thoughts regarding "there was evening, and morning, one day", this doesn't reference "countable time"?

Genesis 1:14 KJV
14) And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Much love!

Trekson · Mar 31, 2026

ScottA said:
What is "foreknowledge" to One who "is the same yesterday, today, and forever?" --You are thinking like a man. Why should I even warn you, but I have--or why should I offer to build on what you have when you have rejected the "finish" superstructure?

What you say above regarding time and God is an oxymoron. This world is not a creation of God overseeing time as from time to time--it is "silence in heaven"--"emptiness" wherein God has revealed the illusion of which men have come to live by and worship "vanity" by worldly terms, to their own peril! It was not suppose to become you, or you it--you were to merely "endure" it to the end.

The offer is still open. Ask.

God created man and the bible was written for man in a way that man could understand it. If one has to create symbolism to try and find truth, they are going down the wrong path.

Trekson · Mar 31, 2026

Davidpt said:
Maybe you are dogmatic about that, maybe you're not.

The following contradicts that since it is meaning before the fall ever took place.

Genesis 1:14 ¶And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Not to mention, there can't be night and day without countable time cycles.

I don't know why you need countable time not starting until the fall of man?

Take the following as well.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

It would be absurd to argue that Adam is not yet living at this point. But since he clearly is alive and living at this point, we then know the following is meaning from the moment he was formed and became a living soul, to the time of his death.

Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died

Not 930 years since the fall. 930 years since Genesis 2:7.

On a side note: Something maybe of interest. 1000 years - 930 years = 70 years---the number 70 being the point. For example, the number 70 is connected with Daniel's 70 weeks of years. The number 70 is connected with serving the king of Babylon seventy years. So on and so on.

You can't really say that 930 days was from creation. The garden and Adam and Eve were all eternal until the fall, God simply created a place where light and darkness both happen. Heaven doesn't have night. When you've been in heaven for a really long time do you think you'll be celebrating 8495th birthday. Time will still be there but we just won't count it because it doesn't matter. Just as time didn't matter in Eden until the fall and man "began to die", which was the end of their immortality. Personally, I have enough faith to believe when God creates something and calls it "good", it will last more than a few days as Yec's like to believe.

Trekson · Mar 31, 2026

marks said:
I'm wondering about your thoughts regarding "there was evening, and morning, one day", this doesn't reference "countable time"?

Genesis 1:14 KJV
14) And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Much love!

Yes, they are but when you're immortal does time really matter? The bible only gives us about ten percent of the Cliff Notes version about creation and there is room in Genesis to believe Adam and Eve lived way longer than 'yec's believe.

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