The Relationship Between Israel and the Church

Trekson · Apr 1, 2026

Not so, but in many cases of OT prophecy we do know what the fulfillment will look like and often that is how we will know it has been fulfilled or is being fulfilled. The symbolisms used in Rev. are explained. Everything else should be taken literally and because of that, we know beyond a shadow of doubt what those fulfillments will look like.

claninja · Apr 1, 2026

Trekson said:
Not so, in many cases w

If it’s not guesswork, can you provide and clear teaching of the millennium from the gospels, epistles, or book of acts?

claninja · Apr 1, 2026

Trekson said:
The symbolisms used in Rev. are explained. Everything else should be taken literally and because of that, we know beyond a shadow of doubt what those fulfillments will look like.

It’s in the first century genre known as apocalyptic literature. It’s not meant to be taken literally.

Ronald Nolette · Apr 1, 2026

Trekson said:
Sometimes the identities of the church and Israel get misconstrued which can lead to false conclusions based on wrongful assumptions. There are two Israels in scripture. There is of course the physical nation of Israel and there is a spiritual Israel which is founded in faith and with the Abrahamic covenant. Gentile Christian believers, upon salvation, become a part of this spiritual Israel. God made several covenants with the nation of Israel. Some, the church inherits by faith, others remain just for the nation of Israel. All the spiritual promises God made to Israel were fulfilled at Christ’s first coming. (ex. Acts 2:17-18, 21) “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:...21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

We inherit these promises the same way Abraham did in Gen. 15:6 through our faith and belief in our Redeemer and upon the righteousness of Christ we receive by faith at salvation. This is also where our “adoption” fits in. Rom. 8:15-17 - “For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”

Many people see the church becoming Israel in Romans 11 but I contend the opposite is true. This shows the separation of the two and reveals the destiny of the physical nation of Israel that will once again be based on their future understanding and utilizing the same faith that Abraham exhibited. Let’s look closer at Rom. 11.

There are two groups shown here, the wild olive shoots that are grafted into the cultivated tree (aka, the church) and the natural branches (Israel). The church will always be grafts. We will never, by osmosis, become natural branches but we receive all our rights via adoption as mentioned above.

Because of disobedience and lack of faith the natural branches were cut off so that we could be grafted in because of our faith and obedience. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, this grafting process will cease (vs. 25 “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.”) and Christ will restore the natural branches to their rightful place (vs.24 “For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?”)

The word “all” in (vs.26 “And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:”)
doesn’t necessarily mean the whole nation, but that at some point, all that will be left of Israel that enters into the millennium will be saved. Where will this group come from? I believe they will be the 144,000 (all born again national Israelites) and the rest of the woman (the ⅓ believing Israel of Zech. 13:8-9) who go into hiding for 3 ½ yrs., Rev. 12:14 - “The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.”

Where will they come from? I believe that the Holy Spirit will open the eyes of His chosen during the 70th week.: Zech. 12:10 - “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.” Especially when the see the FP break the 2nd commandment by setting up the AoD in Rev. 13:14-15.

While we enter into the tree by faith as Abraham, that only entitles us to the spiritual promises, which are more than enough. However, the land promises given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and further explained in the latter chapters of Ezekial, remain for the saved, human Israeli remnant who undergo the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25 that enters the millennium, (as well as some Gentile remnants). Some of the church will be ruling and reigning with Christ but I believe heaven will be just a thought away and we will travel back and forth quite frequently. The earth is not the home of the church, our home is in heaven until we arrive w/ the NJ. Dispensationalists, as a rule, see a permanent separation between the church and Israel. I do not. I believe God’s plan is for an ultimate total unity between both parties as depicted by the description given of the NJ and this is where I believe the future wedding has greater meaning.

Sorry but Israel is Israel and the church is the church.

There are 2 Israels mentioned in the Bible.
1. Physical Israel which is all descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!
2. Spiritual Israel which is all saved descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, since Pentecost.

IN romans 11, we gentiles who are saved by faith are partakers of the spiritual promises (not the physical promises), but we still remain unnatural branches on teh vine.

Spiritual Israelite · Apr 1, 2026

Ronald Nolette said:
Sorry but Israel is Israel and the church is the church.

There are 2 Israels mentioned in the Bible.

Saying "Israel is Israel" and then saying "There are 2 Israels" is nonsense. Since there are 2 Israels, then saying "Israel is Israel" is a ridiculous comment since saying that doesn't specify which Israel is which.

Ronald Nolette said:
1. Physical Israel which is all descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!
2. Spiritual Israel which is all saved descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, since Pentecost.

IN romans 11, we gentiles who are saved by faith are partakers of the spiritual promises (not the physical promises), but we still remain unnatural branches on teh vine.

Let's look at how Paul defined who are part of spiritual Israel.

Romans 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Paul said that not all of those who are descended from physical Israel are spiritual Israel. Then he said "nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham". In other words, being a physical descendant of Abraham is not a requirement for being part of spiritual Israel. Yet, you are making that a requirement, thereby contradicting what Paul said. Then Paul said "those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God". Again, Paul makes it clear that physically descending from physical Israel and Abraham is not a requirement for being part of spiritual Israel. Instead, being a spiritual child of God is required along with being a child of the promise who is counted as Abraham's spiritual seed.

So, according to how Paul described spiritual Israel, being part of spiritual Israel is not dependent at all on physically descending from Israel or Abraham, but rather is dependent on being a child of God and of the promise who is counted as Abraham's spiritual seed. And that describes those who are in the church, as we can see here:

Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Paul's description of spiritual Israel in Romans 9:6-8 matches the description of those who belong to Christ in Galatians 3:26-29. And that means spiritual Israel consists of those who belong to Christ, whether they are Jew or Gentile.

Spiritual Israelite · Apr 1, 2026

Trekson said:
Not so, but in many cases of OT prophecy we do know what the fulfillment will look like and often that is how we will know it has been fulfilled or is being fulfilled. The symbolisms used in Rev. are explained. Everything else should be taken literally and because of that, we know beyond a shadow of doubt what those fulfillments will look like.

Not all of the symbols in Revelation are explained. Some are explained, some are not explained and some have partial explanations of what they symbolize without identifying exactly what the symbols represent, such as the beast and Babylon.

Revelation 2:9 “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

So, since the above verse doesn't explain exactly what the synagogue of Satan is, we should assume that there was a literal synagogue of Satan that Satanists attended?

Trekson · Apr 1, 2026

claninja said:
If it’s not guesswork, can you provide and clear teaching of the millennium from the gospels, epistles, or book of acts?

No, there isn't a clear teaching about it outside of Rev. 20. However, the millennium is about Christ's reign on earth, aka, the physical kingdom of God upon is referenced many times, especially in Rev. 11: 15. but the bible also talks about the spiritual kingdom of God that we are already a part of. One has to discern over 100 times which ones are speaking about the spiritual one and which ones are speaking of the earthly one. A little common sense will prevail in this endeavor.

Trekson · Apr 1, 2026

claninja said:
It’s in the first century genre known as apocalyptic literature. It’s not meant to be taken literally.

Sorry, but there is no such thing as apocalyptic literature in the bible. This term first derived from unbelievers speaking about prophecies that haven't been fulfilled. Just as satan planned, this phrase destroys the natural understanding of literal scripture. When God says something He's not playing mind games.

Trekson · Apr 1, 2026

Ronald Nolette said:
Sorry but Israel is Israel and the church is the church.

There are 2 Israels mentioned in the Bible.
1. Physical Israel which is all descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!
2. Spiritual Israel which is all saved descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, since Pentecost.

IN romans 11, we gentiles who are saved by faith are partakers of the spiritual promises (not the physical promises), but we still remain unnatural branches on teh vine.

I agree on most of that but "spiritual" Israel isn't dependent on DNA but upon faith. That is what Paul is teaching.

Spiritual Israelite · Apr 1, 2026

Trekson said:
No, there isn't a clear teaching about it outside of Rev. 20.

Why would that be? Why would there be nothing about that time period anywhere in the New Testament except for Revelation 20? That makes no sense at all. The fact is that there are lots of scripture passages about that time period in the New Testament, but not as you understand it.

Trekson said:
However, the millennium is about Christ's reign on earth, aka, the physical kingdom of God upon is referenced many times, especially in Rev. 11: 15. but the bible also talks about the spiritual kingdom of God that we are already a part of. One has to discern over 100 times which ones are speaking about the spiritual one and which ones are speaking of the earthly one. A little common sense will prevail in this endeavor.

Thanks for illustrating your problem. You rely on fallible "common sense" instead of relying on the Holy Spirit for understanding. That is exactly what Paul said "the natural man" does.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Don't try to interpret scripture like "the natural man" does. When you do, the truth in scripture that people are showing you in this thread will seem like foolishness to you.

Spiritual Israelite · Apr 1, 2026

Trekson said:
Sorry, but there is no such thing as apocalyptic literature in the bible. This term first derived from unbelievers speaking about prophecies that haven't been fulfilled. Just as satan planned, this phrase destroys the natural understanding of literal scripture. When God says something He's not playing mind games.

So, you think the book of Revelation is "literal scripture". Amazing. You are just not someone that can be taken seriously.

Bladerunner · Apr 1, 2026

covenantee said:
And the antecedent of the "prince who shall come" is "Messiah the Prince".

not really........you trying to be cute

WPM · Apr 1, 2026

Trekson said:
When one doesn't understand these foundational basics, then one's eschatology is built upon a house of sand. The prince of the covenant is the same prince found in Dan. 11:22-23. Face the facts, vs. 27 is 'not" speaking of the new covenant.

That has nothing to do with anything I said. I was refuting your spiritual apartheid.

WPM · Apr 1, 2026

Trekson said:
If one rejects the unfulfilled prophecies of the OC, one is rejecting the words of Christ.

More avoidance! Where does the Bible describe "the church age"? You seem incapable of addressing the numerous flaws in your theology.

Christ has fulfilled/abolished the old covenant.

Trekson · Apr 1, 2026

WPM said:
More avoidance! Where does the Bible describe "the church age"? You seem incapable of addressing the numerous flaws in your theology.

Christ has fulfilled/abolished the old covenant.

Of course he didn't abolish the OC, he abolished the law and they are not the same. 2 Tim. 3:15-16 is speaking of the OT which was the only bible the first church had for decades. Guess what scriptures Acts. 17:11 are talking about? You got it the OT! The church age began when the law ended and Faith and Grace began, but it officially began at Pentecost. C'mon man sunday school kids know this!

covenantee · Apr 1, 2026

Bladerunner said:
not really........you trying to be cute

Do you think Messiah the Prince is cute?

Spiritual Israelite · Apr 2, 2026

Trekson said:
Of course he didn't abolish the OC, he abolished the law and they are not the same. 2 Tim. 3:15-16 is speaking of the OT which was the only bible the first church had for decades. Guess what scriptures Acts. 17:11 are talking about? You got it the OT! The church age began when the law ended and Faith and Grace began, but it officially began at Pentecost. C'mon man sunday school kids know this!

You are extremely ignorant. What is your excuse for that? You deny that the old covenant is obsolete? Is the following verse in your Bible?

Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Ronald Nolette · Apr 2, 2026

Trekson said:
I agree on most of that but "spiritual" Israel isn't dependent on DNA but upon faith. That is what Paul is teaching.

You are correct. spiritual Israel are those physical Israelis who are born again. The other Jews are lost Israel and not spiritual Israel.

Spiritual Israelite · Apr 2, 2026

Ronald Nolette said:
You are correct. spiritual Israel are those physical Israelis who are born again. The other Jews are lost Israel and not spiritual Israel.

Paul indicates that being part of spiritual Israel is NOT dependent on being a physical descendant of national Israel, yet you say otherwise.

Romans 9:6 6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Paul made it very clear that being part of spiritual Israel is not by way of physical descent, so why do you say that spiritual Israel is only those who are physical Israelis? Paul said those who are in spiritual Israel are "God's children", "the children of the promise" and are regarded spiritually as "Abraham's offspring". According to Galatians 3:26-29 all who belong to Christ, both Jews and Gentiles, are God's children, children of the promise and are Abraham's spiritual seed/offspring. That means all believers are part of spiritual Israel.

Trekson · Apr 2, 2026

Ronald Nolette said:
You are correct. spiritual Israel are those physical Israelis who are born again. The other Jews are lost Israel and not spiritual Israel.

It includes gentiles as well.

The Relationship Between Israel and the Church

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