How to answer my son's questions

livefree75 said:

I would love to hear how other people have wrestled with these questions. And if there's any new perspective that I could share with my son.

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This is more so that you can be convinced in your own mind. Whether it will be helpful with your son I leave up to you.

1. I start out with the principle that, no matter how people interpret Jesus's warnings about Gehenna, and how people interpret the book of Revelation's imagery of the Lake of Fire, the God revealed by Jesus Christ is NOT a monster. And make no mistake about it, the insistence that God tortures human souls with burning forever and ever IS monstrous. (And can an entity that would torture humans forever be trusted to keep his promises to save and love?) This is an act of faith. It may take more faith than you've ever had to have, because you're fighting 2,000 years of Church tradition. The argument is that we are "judging God". Well, what is Faith but a judgment that God is trustworthy?

2. You asked for new perspectives on the issue. The word Jesus used most that is translated "Hell" was Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnon outside of Jerusalem where apostate Jews made their children "pass through the fire" as a sacrifice to Molech and where garbage and dead animals were (allegedly) burned. Jesus used this imagery to describe God's judgment. Remembering that Jesus was Jewish, I was surprised to find out that the Jewish understanding of Gehenna is that it is a place of purification similar to Catholic Purgatory. After 12 months in Gehenna the person sent there either has his sin burned away and is allowed a place in the World to Come, or there is nothing left after burning. In either case, Gehenna may be painful and of indefinite length, but it is not forever. You can Google some Jewish sources for more information. Did Jesus and His Jewish listeners at the time understand Gehenna the way the Jewish people do now?

3. As others have mentioned, much of the language used in the Bible regarding the final judgment uses the imagery of Death (no longer living) and Destruction (no longer existing). Look in your concordance for words like apollumi (Greek for "to destroy") and Abaddon (Hebrew for the place of destruction). Even Death and Hades (another place Jesus named that is translated "Hell") is destroyed in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14). The final judgment on the unredeemable wicked is destruction.

livefree75 said:

my eldest son has said that he has deconstructed his faith. He even went so far as to go on Facebook and describe in in gruesome detail how he believes the Bible describes Hell, and says that he cannot worship a god who would allow such a place.

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Gut wrenching story.

A Christian myth is hell tied to ECT - eternal conscious torment. The wages of sin is death, annihilation - not ECT.

Hell is a place the damned go to await annihilation in the Lake of Fire on Judgment Day.

I hope this helps.

Wrangler said:

A Christian myth is hell tied to ECT - eternal conscious torment. The wages of sin is death, annihilation - not ECT.

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No actually “the wages sin pays is death”.....death is the opposite of life. Death is not annihilation if there is the promise of a resurrection. It’s really that simple. (John 5:28-29)

Wrangler said:

Hell is a place the damned go to await annihilation in the Lake of Fire on Judgment Day.

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How do the “damned” go anywhere if the wages of sin is death....for the incorrigibly wicked, the annihilation is instantaneous. Sheol/hades is the grave, from which the majority will receive a resurrection.

But there is no resurrection for those who are sentenced to “Gehenna”. (Like the Pharisees) It is “the second death”.....the first death is from Adam...which is temporary.....the second death is from God...which is permanent. “The lake of fire” is symbolic....nothing thrown into a fire survives. Imagine falling into a lava lake.....instant annihilation. No torture necessary.

Those who committed sin inherited from Adam will benefit from Christ’s sacrifice, but those who blatantly committed sin as a choice, ignoring the evidence for God in this life (which is all around us) and practicing evil willfully, will remain in Gehenna.

Wrangler said:

I hope this helps.

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If it’s not true, how can it help anyone?

Aunty Jane said:

No actually “the wages sin pays is death”

the “damned”

sentenced to “Gehenna”

“the second death”

“The lake of fire” is symbolic

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I see that you are still speaking a different language but using English "words" in quotes. There's no potential to communicate with you and your made up "language."

Aunty Jane said:

If it’s not true, how can it help anyone?

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Asks the one who defines love to mean not being someone's friend at any point.

Honestly, your pedantic IDOLATRY of what you believe you know is tiresome. The OP is asking for help. Rather than criticize my efforts, try being his friend and just help him without numerous 12 paragraph posts filled with diatribes of what you think are other people's doctrinal errors!

Perhaps you could also quietly pray once for your son, without telling him, that God would include him amongst those whom He is drawing to Himself so that they may come to know of God's great love for people and that your son would also come to know what God's purpose for his life will be.

Then continue worshipping and praising God whenever you remember that above prayer that He has heard your prayer and is actively working in drawing him to Himself.

God will still use you as you and your son continue going on a journey of discovery through God's words in the Bible.

livefree75 said:

Hello fellow believers,

I'm brand new to this forum. I've been a Christian for almost 40 years. I was saved at the age of 12, went to a Christian college, and have been serving in my church's worship team for the past 25 years. I've studied the Bible and had many deep discussions with my pastor and other Christians.

All My children were raised in the church, and are at various places in their walk. My second eldest son is even studying to become a pastor. However, my eldest son has said that he has deconstructed his faith. He even went so far as to go on Facebook and describe in in gruesome detail how he believes the Bible describes Hell, and says that he cannot worship a god who would allow such a place. That, along with the commands from God in the Old testament to wipe out whole civilizations: men, women and children.

I have tried to point him to to the many examples in the Bible of God's love and grace: many of the Psalms, Jesus' gentleness with people in the Gospels, not to mention his ultimate sacrifice for our sins. But I cannot deny that my son's charges carry weight. And they are starting to bother me as well. I know that God is a god of Justice as well as love. I have tried to explain it by saying that we don't ever know the whole story, and how can we logically put our own morality above God's? That is, by what standard can we possibly judge He who is eternal? He who created truth and therefore morality? But logic alone does not satisfy these heart-wrenching questions.

I would love to hear how other people have wrestled with these questions. And if there's any new perspective that I could share with my son. I know that it's not my job to save him. Only God can do that. And I know that God wants him even more than I do. But I have prayed fervently for him as well as my #3 son who is also rather agnostic but not hostile to the faith, and does go to Christmas and Easter services with us when he's home. My eldest refuses to darken the doorstep of any church.

I need God's comfort and his strength right now.

I pray God's blessing upon each of you and look forward to Resurrection Sunday.

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Hello livefree75,
You might like to visit the link below, ie ReDiscovering God. It deals with the valid questions your Son is asking....his questions are the outcome of an honest enquiry to what has been generally taught in many Christian circles.
The latter episodes particularly address these questions. Be encouraged, there is light in the darkness.
I hope to hear back from you.

livefree75 said:

But I cannot deny that my son's charges carry weight. And they are starting to bother me as well.

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Surely why don't we bring the Lord God Almighty on charges of doing the wrong thing .
Not hardly .
The right thing is the only thing God can do ! There is no error in Him .

I have no doubt of God's power and Who he is , The LORD God Almighty .

To have doubts about God is a very bad place to be as King Nebuchadnezzar found out , after his reckoning he understood .

Daniel 4:35 Context​

32And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. 33The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws. 34And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: 35And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? 36At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me. 37Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

livefree75 said:

Hello fellow believers,

I'm brand new to this forum. I've been a Christian for almost 40 years. I was saved at the age of 12, went to a Christian college, and have been serving in my church's worship team for the past 25 years. I've studied the Bible and had many deep discussions with my pastor and other Christians.

All My children were raised in the church, and are at various places in their walk. My second eldest son is even studying to become a pastor. However, my eldest son has said that he has deconstructed his faith. He even went so far as to go on Facebook and describe in in gruesome detail how he believes the Bible describes Hell, and says that he cannot worship a god who would allow such a place. That, along with the commands from God in the Old testament to wipe out whole civilizations: men, women and children.

I have tried to point him to to the many examples in the Bible of God's love and grace: many of the Psalms, Jesus' gentleness with people in the Gospels, not to mention his ultimate sacrifice for our sins. But I cannot deny that my son's charges carry weight. And they are starting to bother me as well. I know that God is a god of Justice as well as love. I have tried to explain it by saying that we don't ever know the whole story, and how can we logically put our own morality above God's? That is, by what standard can we possibly judge He who is eternal? He who created truth and therefore morality? But logic alone does not satisfy these heart-wrenching questions.

I would love to hear how other people have wrestled with these questions. And if there's any new perspective that I could share with my son. I know that it's not my job to save him. Only God can do that. And I know that God wants him even more than I do. But I have prayed fervently for him as well as my #3 son who is also rather agnostic but not hostile to the faith, and does go to Christmas and Easter services with us when he's home. My eldest refuses to darken the doorstep of any church.

I need God's comfort and his strength right now.

I pray God's blessing upon each of you and look forward to Resurrection Sunday.

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You might be surprised how many young people ask questions and concerns like this in Sunday school.
This and why do good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people?

For those equating this to the Old Testament....It can be misleading, the people or nations in the Old Testament received their punishments during their lives and they all went to Sheol. And there is no indication that the presence of God was in Sheol so it appears that it was a separation from God. (Of course some believe Sheol is the graves. How that works I do not know.)

But on the topic of Hell.....God is not going to apologize for Hell, nor are we going to know why it came to be an issue in the New Testament.
Would it be right for evil to be Heaven? Murders, rapists, child molesters, atheists, creeps in general?
What else could be done with evil souls?
In our reality we have the Law of Physics. In the spirit world there maybe the Law of the spirit world. If you are not allowed in Heaven, Hell maybe the only place left? If Yeshua is not going to allow evil persons in Heaven where else would they go? Some people think it would be better to destroy the person/soul, but can a soul be destroyed?
Yeshua does not want anyone to go to Hell.
Does anyone deserve to go to Heaven?
Does anyone deserve to go to Hell?
It is one of the reasons I believe that it is matter of the reality of the spirit world. If you are not saved by Yeshua, Hell is the only option. Yeshua (a God, the Begotten Son of God) went through Hell to give us the opportunity for salvation. So it is obvious that He is not happy about anyone going to Hell, it is probably a function of the spirit world. Rule There has to be punishment for sin. What would be the alternative? Get by with anything?
So much we do not know about Hell. Who and what was involved with the creation of Hell?
But for sure your son needs to know that God does not want that for anybody.
And your son needs to know you do not have to be perfect to go to Heaven. If perfection was a requirement for salvation, then it would never work for anybody.
God Bless

livefree75 said:

Hello fellow believers,

I'm brand new to this forum. I've been a Christian for almost 40 years. I was saved at the age of 12, went to a Christian college, and have been serving in my church's worship team for the past 25 years. I've studied the Bible and had many deep discussions with my pastor and other Christians.

All My children were raised in the church, and are at various places in their walk. My second eldest son is even studying to become a pastor. However, my eldest son has said that he has deconstructed his faith. He even went so far as to go on Facebook and describe in in gruesome detail how he believes the Bible describes Hell, and says that he cannot worship a god who would allow such a place. That, along with the commands from God in the Old testament to wipe out whole civilizations: men, women and children.

I have tried to point him to to the many examples in the Bible of God's love and grace: many of the Psalms, Jesus' gentleness with people in the Gospels, not to mention his ultimate sacrifice for our sins. But I cannot deny that my son's charges carry weight. And they are starting to bother me as well. I know that God is a god of Justice as well as love. I have tried to explain it by saying that we don't ever know the whole story, and how can we logically put our own morality above God's? That is, by what standard can we possibly judge He who is eternal? He who created truth and therefore morality? But logic alone does not satisfy these heart-wrenching questions.

I would love to hear how other people have wrestled with these questions. And if there's any new perspective that I could share with my son. I know that it's not my job to save him. Only God can do that. And I know that God wants him even more than I do. But I have prayed fervently for him as well as my #3 son who is also rather agnostic but not hostile to the faith, and does go to Christmas and Easter services with us when he's home. My eldest refuses to darken the doorstep of any church.

I need God's comfort and his strength right now.

I pray God's blessing upon each of you and look forward to Resurrection Sunday.

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I would encourage you (and him) to look at some theological positions that don't require that God either puts everyone in heaven or hell. Not every flavor of Christianity is that binary.

Annihilationism is the belief that God causes some/many people to simply cease to exist after the judgment. I tend to believe this. I can give more information about where to find verses and material about it if you like.

Universalism is the belief that God saves everyone, no matter what. I believe St. Steven can probably give you better information than I can.

The Greek Orthodox church (the folks who actually read the language the New Testament was written in) don't believe in a physical hell. They believe... you know, I think I'll let the AI take the wheel on this one... I'm not really qualified to speak on this...

In Greek Orthodox theology, hell is not a physical place of created punishment or a location where God is absent, but an experiential state of separation from God caused by a person's refusal to love and repent. It is understood as the misuse of free will, where God’s omnipresent, uncreated love is experienced by the unrepentant as an all-consuming, tormenting fire.

Key Aspects of the Orthodox View of Hell:

• Experience of God's Love: Both heaven and hell are the experience of the same, single, uncreated divine energy of God's love, experienced differently based on the soul's condition.
• A State, Not a Place: Hell is not a fiery prison created by God, but a state of being, often described as "outer darkness" or internal torment.
• Self-Chosen State: Hell is not a punishment inflicted by a vengeful God, but rather a self-chosen condition resulting from a person’s refusal to embrace God’s love and grace.
• Eternal Consequence: It is seen as an eternal state that begins in this life and is consummated after the Last Judgment.

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Aunty Jane said:

No actually “the wages sin pays is death”.....death is the opposite of life. Death is not annihilation if there is the promise of a resurrection. It’s really that simple. (John 5:28-29)

How do the “damned” go anywhere if the wages of sin is death....for the incorrigibly wicked, the annihilation is instantaneous. Sheol/hades is the grave, from which the majority will receive a resurrection.

But there is no resurrection for those who are sentenced to “Gehenna”. (Like the Pharisees) It is “the second death”.....the first death is from Adam...which is temporary.....the second death is from God...which is permanent. “The lake of fire” is symbolic....nothing thrown into a fire survives. Imagine falling into a lava lake.....instant annihilation. No torture necessary.

Those who committed sin inherited from Adam will benefit from Christ’s sacrifice, but those who blatantly committed sin as a choice, ignoring the evidence for God in this life (which is all around us) and practicing evil willfully, will remain in Gehenna.

If it’s not true, how can it help anyone?

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No Jane- People do not pay for their own sins with physical death so that they are resurrected as sinless by dying.
Your leaders do not teach Romans 6 correctly!

I did notice that Your JW bible add "pays" in Ro 6:23. That's isn't in Greek.
They did that to try to reinforce their false teaching that Physical death results in payment for sins so that you are raised SINLESS so you can try to earn life over 1000 years. ---Utter JW nonsense! ----
The ONLY way to be righteous/justified is to have your sins forgiven by the blood of Jesus and be born a new.--
Your own dead body does not result in righteousness or justification! that's a sick un-biblical teaching.
WHAT THIS VERSE MEANS is DEATH is your pay- you get what you deserve- it is your wage- you earned death! This is speaking to the 2nd death.
Death is the opposite here to eternal life, and one is just as enduring as the other.
But the gift of God - Not the wages of man; not what is due to him- but the GIFT and MERCY of God. Paul is careful to distinguish, and to teach us this is not what man deserves, but life what is given by grace through the finished work of Jesus.

Ro 6.23-
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
τὰ γὰρ ὀψώνια τῆς ἁμαρτίας θάνατος, τὸ δὲ χάρισμα τοῦ θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰώνιος ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν.

RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Tὰ γὰρ ὀψώνια τῆς ἁμαρτίας θάνατος, τὸ δὲ χάρισμα τοῦ θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰώνιος ἐν χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν.

Greek Orthodox Church 1904
τὰ γὰρ ὀψώνια τῆς ἁμαρτίας θάνατος, τὸ δὲ χάρισμα τοῦ Θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰώνιος ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ Κυρίῳ ἡμῶν.

Tischendorf 8th Edition
τὰ γὰρ ὀψώνια τῆς ἁμαρτίας θάνατος, τὸ δὲ χάρισμα τοῦ θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰώνιος ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν.

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
τὰ γὰρ ὀψώνια τῆς ἁμαρτίας θάνατος, τὸ δὲ χάρισμα τοῦ Θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰώνιος ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ Κυρίῳ ἡμῶν.

etc.. NONE of them adds "pays" that is merely a part of your indoctrination. Check for yourself.

livefree75 said:

He even went so far as to go on Facebook and describe in in gruesome detail how he believes the Bible describes Hell, and says that he cannot worship a god who would allow such a place.

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I have addressed that here.

livefree75 said:

That, along with the commands from God in the Old testament to wipe out whole civilizations: men, women and children.

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There's a couple of reasons why this one done:
1) The Israelites were used as a form of judgment against the Canaanites for their many transgressions, which included burning their children alive to the fire god Molech. This was done after they were given a long period to turn away from their sins. God told Abraham that his descendants would not possess the land until the iniquity of the Amorites was complete. That gave them 400 years to turn away from their evil practices while the Hebrews were in Egypt, but did not.

2) Another reason was to prevent the Israelites from adopting the Canaanite gods. God had forewarned them that there would be consequences if the inhabitants in Canaan were not completely eliminated. One consequence is they would turn to their gods and engage in all the detestable things that brought destruction on these nations in the first place (Deu 12:31). This eventually did happen because Israel didn't destroy everyone as they were commanded. While it seems harsh, God knew the consequences if they didn't.

3) It was also to prevent future hostiles. God told them to destroy them all, but they didn't listen. So, eventually, those nations grew stronger and oppressed them. God had to keep sending them deliverers in the form of judges to free them. Here's the thing: it's easy to cast judgment from the safety and comfort of our modern society. But things were different back then. They lived under the constant threat of being pillaged and destroyed by other nations. If you leave some alive, someday their descendants might grow strong and destroy you. That was just how it was back then.

4) This is a controversial one, but recall there were giants in the land. They were hybrid creatures that, if left unchecked, would have overtaken humanity. They were basically an invasive species that had to be exterminated. God sent a flood to wipe them out the first time. He used the Israelites to wipe them out the second time.

Jericho said:

4) This is a controversial one, but recall there were giants in the land. They were hybrid creatures that, if left unchecked, would have overtaken humanity. They were basically an invasive species that had to be exterminated. God sent a flood to wipe them out the first time. He used the Israelites to wipe them out the second time.

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Honestly just waiting for theology to catch up to the sciences on this. We have the Amorites and Canaanites record of their ancestors being Rephaim, which is one of the Biblical words translated giants.

rockytopva said:

I started a thread here... The importance of a testimony... It is important for all your family members of getting a testimony of what the Lord is doing through you. Without the testimony all the study in ministry is worthless...

The Importance of a Testimony

The Testimony - Is the most important part of ministry. Get a testimony of something the Lord is doing through you and it will be something exciting to talk about. When I was young and growing up our pastor used to have dozens of good evangelists with great testimonies. This gave the whole...

www.christianityboard.com

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Testimony!....hmmmm. To what do we testify? To ourselves or something else?
Yes, we love to talk about ourselves; that is no surprise. The universe revolves around me me me. Is this what we testify to? Is this our witness?

If I was in a court as a witness and all I did was talk about myself, the Judge would throw me out.

So what do we witness/ testify to if it's not ourselves? Is it even known?