You have been misled. You seem incapable of addressing the multiple rebuttals here that forbid your teaching. Why cannot you not address?
Update on World System.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
She never specifically addresses opposing arguments. I specifically addressed her claim that the day of the Lord in 2 Peter 3:10 is not referring to the same thing as the day of God in 2 Peter 3:12. But, she won't specifically address my argument in kind. Why not? What is she afraid of? But, she's not alone in that. Most Premils (especially dispies) on this forum do not specifically address any challenges to their doctrine, which shows that they just believe what they want to believe even after holes in their doctrine are shown to them.
Davy
Well-Known Member
It's actually the opposite of what you say, because you are wanting to interpret that Greek word in light of a literal destruction of the whole earth, when Peter in 2 Peter 3 was speaking about the 3 world earth ages, of which the first 2 did not literally destroy the whole earth, but only cleansed the earth's surface.
The earth is forever, like God said, and you should have understood this because of all the Bible Scripture evidence for the earth still existing after Christ's future return, with the wicked still existing in that future time. And remember, the doctrine of Amillennialism from man that you keep demands the fact that all wicked are destroyed on the day of Christ's future return, and are in the "lake of fire". God's Word does not show that, but instead that the wicked only perish in the "lake of fire", along with the abode of "hell" (Hades) where they are, after... Christ's future "thousand years" reign.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Lord Jesus is now reigning over all nations on earth?? That's ludicrous, for it would make Lord Jesus the author of evil. Jesus said in John 18:36 that His Kingdom is NOT of this world, meaning this present world age. What He is reigning over today is HIS CHURCH on earth. And if you bother to pay attention in today's world, not everyone believes on Jesus of Nazareth as The Savior and Messiah, even the orthodox Jews still don't believe.
And what is even more show of Biblical illiteracy with this topic is the fact that at the very end of this world Satan is coming to setup a one-world beast kingdom over ALL NATIONS and PEOPLES that will last for 42 months.
Rev 13:4-9
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
KJV
Does that look like Lord Jesus began His Eternal reign over all nations and peoples at His cross? Of course not. Christ's literal physical Kingdom will come on the day of His future return, and not before. Until then, only His Kingdom by The Spirit is manifest today on earth through His many-member body, His Church.
- Is Jesus “the express image of his (God’s) person,” who is “upholding all things by the word of his power” (Hebrews 1:2-3)?
- Do you believe that Christ has become "the ruler of God’s creation" (Revelation 3:14)?
- Do you believe that Jesus has already "spoiled principalities and powers ... made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it (the cross)" (Colossians 2:15)?
- Do you believe that Christ “is the head of all principality and power” (Colossians 2:10)?
- Do you believe that “angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him” right now (1 Peter 3:22)?
- Do you believe that Christ is currently "the archon (or ruler) of the kings of the earth" (Revelation 1:5)?
- Is Jesus “the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting” (1 Timothy 6:15–16)?
- Do you believe that “All things that the Father hath are” Christ’s (John 16:15)?
- Do you believe that the Father has indeed given Jesus “power over all flesh” (John 17:2)?
- Do you believe that “All things are delivered” unto Jesus of His “Father” (Matthew 11:27) and that He has “given all things into his (Christ’s) hand” (John 3:35 and John 13:3)?
- Do you believe that Jesus currently possesses “All power [Gr. exousia or authority] … in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18)?
- Do you believe that the Father has given Jesus “authority to execute judgment … because he is the Son of man” (John 5:26-27)?
- Do you believe that Christ currently “openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth" (Revelation 3:7)?
- When does Christ reign? After His enemies are subdued or until His enemies are subdued (1 Corinthians 15:25-28)?
- 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 and Ephesians 1:20-23 tells us that Christ “hath put (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet” and Hebrews 1:8 tells us that “thou hast put all things in subjection’ (aorist active indicative) under his feet.” How could anyone therefore deny He is sovereignly reigning over His enemies now? How could anyone then relate this fulfilment to an alleged future age after the second coming?
- Do you agree that when it says in Hebrews 2:8 “For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him” that this plainly speaking about everyone who is living or has ever lived, albeit, there are enemies still being born right up until the second coming that will be placed under His feet?
You left out the rest of that verse.
Hebrews 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Jesus is Lord of all, but His absolute reign on earth is still future. If you say it is now happening, you then hold Jesus accountable for all the sins, atrocities, and abominations that are occurring, which is absurd.
This acknowledges the current reality where the full manifestation of Christ's authority is not yet visible.
It reflects the "already but not yet" tension in Christian eschatology, where Christ's victory is assured, but not fully realized in the present world. This is a call to faith and hope, trusting in the eventual fulfillment of God's promises, despite present contrary circumstances. It resonates with the themes in Romans 8:22-25, where creation still awaits its full redemption.
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I see you ignored all the questions. Why? Dispies have to! They are always trying to undermine the current power of Jesus. They are always trying to belittle His authority. They reject the current sovereign kingship of Christ at the right hand of majesty on high. They try to dethrone Him. They refute that He holds all power and authority in heaven on earth. How much power does He need toi be ruling over everyone and everything.
Premillennialists typically highlight the phrase “now we see not yet all things put under him.” They present it as evidence that Christ is not ruling at the moment. But they (1) fail to interpret what this is actually saying and they (2) fail to quote all the surrounding evidence as context. This phrase is telling us: there are still enemies to be born and subjugated. There are still leaders and kingdoms to fall. The process of subjugation is ongoing to the second coming.
The sovereign king reigns majestic, supreme and unchallenged in His power and authority, ruling over all creation (seen and unseen) and over all things (good and evil). Whilst new enemies are being born every day, while new wicked regimes continually arise, Christ determines what He allows and what He doesn’t. There is nothing that is not under Him. The world is definitely not out of control. God has a plan and that plan will be fulfilled, as God sees fit.
Premils are selective in their quoting of this passage. Rather than quote the full verse they just quote part of it. They side-step the 1st part of that text and only highlight the 2nd in order to deny the current kingship of Christ, and dilute His control over all mankind. What is more, this is the only text they have to argue what they do on this, and even then, they selectively highlight half a text to the exclusion of the other half. Notwithstanding, this has been addressed several times by Amils here, with little acknowledgement. You either ignore or misunderstand the thrust of the text. You are absolutely right "now we see not yet all things put under him."
The fact is: there are still enemies to be born and subjugated. There are still leaders and kingdoms to fall. But the sovereign king reigns majestic, supreme and unchallenged in His power and authority, ruling over all creation (seen and unseen) and over all things (good and evil). The other part of the passage that you ignore is: "Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him."
Permitting evil and using it for His ultimate glory does not negate Christ’s kingship or Him ruling in divine power.
When did I ever claim to be a dispensationalist?
Your anger at dispensationalists does not touch me at all.
Your making long lists of questions does not obligate me to reply to every one of them. Especially when the basis of the questions is a faulty theology you picked up somewhere.
You use the word sovereign in a mistaken sense. Sovereign means ultimate authority, not a power that is causing everything that happens. The delusion of God’s sovereign causing of sin and atrocities presents a warped image of God.
Not true. This is all noise. You deny the kingship of Christ. You You deny that Jesus currently possesses “All power [Gr. exousia or authority] … in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18). You deny that the Father has given Jesus “authority to execute judgment … because he is the Son of man” (John 5:26-27). You deny that Christ currently “openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth" (Revelation 3:7). You deny that He is sovereignly reigning over His enemies now.
What more power and authority does He need over His enemies to prove to Premils that He is truly reigning over all them now?
Everything is under the control of Christ, and therefore subject to His own will. Not even a sparrow falls from the sky without His permission. It is wrong to imagine that Christ is sovereignly reigning over every aspect of creation apart from the wicked. He reigns above every earthly power.
Is what you have been taught more important than what the Bible teaches?
- Jesus is king now.
- He is in sovereign control. What He allows, happens. What He disallows, does not happen.
- He holds all authority now.
- He exercises divine power now.
- He rules over all creation now.
- He reigns over His enemies now.
- He reigns above every earthly power.
- Everything and everyone is under His feet now.
- He will finally and eternally subdue then when He comes.
- He is the prince of peace.
- He govern over the affairs of man.
- He is spiritually with His people.
- He is still working signs and wonders.
- The victory is already won.
- We are here to enforce that.
- Satan is a defeated foe.
- The Savior we serve never loses any battles to Satan.
- While God allows evil to function, He doesn’t let it triumph.
- While we fail and lose personal battles, we win the war.
- No weapon formed against us will prosper
- Satan has no power over us. But, we have power over Him.
- All things eventually work together for God's glory and our benefit.
- Light will always overcome darkness.
- We know how it all ends – we win.
- We are now in Revelation 20 .
I never claimed to be a Premillenialist.
You see everything in terms of one theology versus another theology.
You read a few statements, then in a frenzy, rush to label the person who made them. You seek to put a person in a theological category, then you rail against that category. You exalt a theologian, then seek to attack anything that disagrees with him.
I am not denying anything, except your false theology that blames all atrocities and abominations on God causing them to happen.
We agree on ”He will finally and eternally subdue then when He comes.” — by which you acknowledge that “now we see not yet all things put under him.”
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Who "blames all atrocities and abominations on God causing them to happen"? This is a straw-man argument. You are obviously devoid of any valid rebuttal.
You seem to have no clue about the meaning of Christ's kingship. His sovereign rule allows for evil occurring and even prospering at times. His heavenly kingship allows for evil men doing evil things. But God ultimately uses it for His glory. But He sets restraint and bounds upon man's efforts according to His infinite wisdom.
He holds all power (without qualification). After all, He is God! God either causes or permits - as He is God and He is sovereign. Simple! That is an explicit biblical truth and a Christian fundamental. The powerful language that accompanies the mention of Christ holding the key of David proves that this is referring to His majestic power and might that came with taking the Messianic throne of David. It says, “he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.” This speaks of spiritual power. The key allows Christ to sovereignly open and shut in a way that no man can thwart or override.
Romans 9:19-21 says, “For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?”
Ephesians 1:11 tells us, He “worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.”
The devil is a serial loser, but Jesus is a serial winner. The victories Satan gets are only temporal, and normally because we believers have dropped our guard or dropped the ball.
· What He says goes!
· What He does stands!
Davy
Well-Known Member
God is in control, always has been. And He uses... Satan during this world to punish the rebellious against Him. God has a PLAN still, even after... the cross. And He is still using Satan in that PLAN. This very matter is covered in MANY Bible Scriptures so that those who try to create their 'own' Utopia system 'based'... on the cross would be shocked when Jesus does return to setup His authentic Kingdom.
Exactly! He is reigning now as king of kings over His enemies. He is coming to destroy them all - angelic and human.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
It's a complete waste of time talking to you because you have literally zero reading comprehension skills. I have told you several times that I don't believe that the earth will be annihilated, but rather will be burned up and renewed, resulting in "the new earth" (the earth in a renewed state), but here you are acting as if I said the earth will be annihilated. The meek could not inherit the earth if it was annihilated, so I know better than to have an interpretation that would contradict that verse (Matthew 5:5). But, only the meek (believers) will inherit the (renewed) earth and not anyone else, which you deny. I have many better things to do than to try to explain things to someone who can't read. So, I'm done with that. Just go ahead and continue talking to yourself while no one takes you seriously.
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`The Lord (Father) said to my Lord (Son), "Sit at my right hand TILL I make your enemies your footstool.` (Ps. 110: 1)
The Father is bringing the Son`s enemies to His footstool for judgment. Meanwhile the Lord Jesus Christ is building His Body and maturing them so they can rule and reign with Him. (Eph. 4: 11 - 16 Rev. 3: 21)
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You think that the Father is bringing the Son's enemies to His footstool, but that Jesus isn't reigning while He is doing that. But, Paul taught otherwise here...
1 Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
Verse 25 is saying that Jesus must reign until God the Father has put all enemies under His feet, with the last enemy to be put under His feet being death itself. That means Jesus is reigning while "The Father is bringing the Son's enemies to HIs foostool for judgment". Premils like yourself contradict this by claiming that Jesus doesn't reign while "The Father is bringing the Son's enemies to His footstool".
You have totally mangled that verse.
At Christ’s coming, then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, putting an end to all rule.
It is at Christ’s coming that Christ reigns until He puts all enemies under His feet.
None of this is happening now. We are still waiting for Christ to come again.
And you are very correct. The church has been radically indoctrinated to the point where you can't go anywhere without hearing the same regurgitated talking points using the same rigid pattern of five verses.
`those who are His at His coming..` Yet to happen.
`then comes the end...` in Greek means the setting out to a conclusion. When the Lord Jesus is visibly inaugurated in the third heaven, (Rev. 4: 2 & 3) then He is given the judgment scroll by the Father. He then begins to exercise His authority and power by bringing judgments upon the nations, (Rev. 8 & 9) followed by the judgments on the world system - religious, (Rev. 17: 16 & 17) Economic, (Rev. 18: 178 - 19) and Political, (Rev. 19: 20)
