And you are very correct. The church has been radically indoctrinated to the point where you can't go anywhere without hearing the same regurgitated talking points using the same rigid pattern of five verses. .
Update on World System.
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I notice you haven`t commented on what I wrote. Easy to `poo hoo` but much harder to actually do some scriptural work and show where the person was wrong - by scripture.
I answered Spiritual Israelite`s scripture with scriptures. Now you need to do some work and answer my scriptures.
`those who are His at His coming..` Yet to happen.
`then comes the end...` in Greek means the setting out to a conclusion. When the Lord Jesus is visibly inaugurated in the third heaven, (Rev. 4: 2 & 3) then He is given the judgment scroll by the Father. He then begins to exercise His authority and power by bringing judgments upon the nations, (Rev. 8 & 9) followed by the judgments on the world system - religious, (Rev. 17: 16 & 17) Economic, (Rev. 18: 178 - 19) and Political, (Rev. 19: 20)
Davy
Well-Known Member
And now you go the route of the big 'cop out', because you have no intention of heeding what God's written Word says, which I showed you.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Kind of like TV news stations parroting each other with the same news statements circulated by a single news hub. In the case of Christianity, it's coming from the seminaries. One pastor told me he was told by his seminary school that if a believe comes up to ask a deep Bible question, get them back on the 'milk' of God's Word as quick as possible. That in essence is direction to hide... much of God's Truth in His Word.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
No, I have not. You are blinded by your Premill beliefs.
Right, that text indicates end comes at Christ's coming and He delivers His kingdom that He has been reigning over to God the Father at that time. Not 1,000+ years later.
Paul indicated that Christ was reigning then and must continue to reign until all enemies are put under His feet.
Scripture explicitly teaches that Christ has been reigning since His resurrection.
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Ephesians 1:19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church,
Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. 6 To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
If you don't think that Jesus Christ is reigning now, then you don't know Jesus. He IS the King of kings and Lord of lords NOW.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I didn't say that already happened. Read what I said again, only carefully this time.
Paul indicated that the end will come when Jesus comes. Therefore, Jesus reigns now and must continue to reign until He comes again, at which point He will deliver His kingdom to the Father. Premills try to insert 1,000 years between Christ's coming and the end, but Paul does not do that.
He has been exercising all power in heaven and earth that He was given long ago every day ever since then. Nothing in heaven or on the earth happens without His permission. He has ALL power and authority in heaven and earth and has authority over all things and every name that is named (Ephesians 1:19-22). He doesn't have to be bringing down judgments in order to be reigning. Do you deny that Jesus is your King right now? If not, then you should understand how He can reign without bringing judgments.
What Premill beliefs? I never claimed to be a premillenialist. Your theology has blinded you to make you slap a label on a person.
Jesus is NOT reigning over all things yet. He is reigning over all those who follow Him as Lord and Master.
Jesus is not reigning over those who mock and reject Him. Jesus is not reigning over all the atrocities and abominations happening in the world. When Jesus returns to reign supreme, His enemies will be destroyed, not tolerated.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I've never seen anyone but Premills say the kind of things you were saying. So, are you an Amillennialist then?
Jesus said He was given authority over all of heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18). How can all of earth not include "those who mock and reject Him"? Paul said that when Jesus was resurrected and was placed at the right hand of the Father He was placed "far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come." (Ephesians 1:19-22).
Are not "those who mock and reject Him" included among "every name that is named"? Of course they are. Paul said Jesus is reigning over "all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named" in this age, so why would you deny that?
I agree. Now, you're the one acting as if I'm a Premill. We need to each clarify what we believe. I thought I made it clear, but I will explicitly say now that I'm an Amillennialist. What is your end times view?
Perhaps you should throw away your theological labels and see scriptures plainly.
If the world today looks to you like Jesus is reigning, you are using the word reigning to mean tolerating.
Hebrews 2:8
Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under Him.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Think about how many times I have explained my views in detail to you, but you somehow think I'm going the route of the cop out. What a joke. No, I'm going the route of not wasting my time explaining things to someone who has no reading comprehension skills and will misrepresent my view no matter what I tell you.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Perhaps you should act like an adult instead of like a child. Was my question asking you what you believe too difficult for you? Are you afraid to tell me for some reason? If you are not a Premill and you also disagree with my Amill view, then what are you? What is your understanding of Revelation 20?
Why do you ignore all of that verse except the part you highlighted in red? Is this how you always cherry pick scripture? That verse, like Ephesians 1:19-22, says that God "put all things in subjection under" Christ's feet and "left nothing that is not put under him". Did you somehow miss that part? You can't just ignore that part. You have to reconcile the part you highlighted with what is indicated in the rest of the verse. Do you have no interest in doing that?
So, how can we reconcile the verse saying that God put all things in subjection under Christ's feet with the verse also saying that not all things are yet put under Him? Very easily. Does everything and everyone that will ever exist already exist? No. So, He does not yet have the things and people who do not yet exist under Him, but they are put under Him as they come into existence. Right now, all things that exist are under Him.
So, explain to me how you can reconcile your beliefs with what the entire verse says rather than just the part that you cherry picked.
Your understanding of Christ's reign is flawed. In your view God has never reigned since sin came into the world because you equate Christ reigning with Him being a dictator and with everyone obeying Christ. So, would you also claim that God has not reigned since since came into the world?
Jesus is my HEAD of the Body. He is King over Israel.
Now when it says -
`We give you thanks O Lord God Almighty, the one who is and who was and who is to come, because you have taken your great power and reigned.` (Rev. 11: 17)
When is that?
You want to view everything in theological categories and silly labels.
Last part of verse is in red, because it is the part you ignore.
Hebrews 2:8
Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under Him.
Your bizarre misunderstanding of Christ’s reign is comical. I wonder who taught you such nonsense. Which theological textbook?
You get angry and frenzied in discussions.
Have a great day!
Hi SI,
I agree that the Lord in the Godhead, (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) have been ruling over the world since He made it, King Nebuchadnezzar praises `the King of heaven, all of whose works are truth and His ways justice. ` (Dan. 4: 37)
God has given the nations a set time to show whether they can rule righteously. In His omniscience God knows that Satan will head up the last Gentile Government. That is when God is shown to be just to then judge the world system that man and Satan have produced.
This World System is dominated by the prevalence of sin with its own methods, manners, customs, fashions and laws.
This System operates apart from God and offers position, possession and power, (authority) to those who serve its interests.
When Jesus was manifest as a man on earth, He was offered each area of man`s government - Religious, (Matt. 4: 8 - 10) Economic, (John 6: 15) Political, (Matt. 21: 9). But Jesus refused each one.
It is only when the glorified Lord has taken His throne in the highest, given of the Father, (Ps. 2: 6) that He starts to put down all rule, authority and power. Then when He has dealt with the world system, - Religious, (Rev. 17: 16 & 17), Economic, (Rev. 18: 19) and Political, (Rev. 19: 20) the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of the LORD and His Christ. (Rev. 11: 15)
The glorified Lord Jesus then rules through Israel righteously and has Israel teach the nations the ways of the Lord. (Micah 4: 1 - 3)
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Further thoughts.
The first rulership of the Godhead is because they made the world and had the power and might to rule over it and perform their purpose - that the nations are shown to not be able to rule righteously.
Then the second rulership is Jesus in His glorified body. He is given Kingship by the Father because He has legally done the Father`s will - born of David`s line in Israel, obeyed the Father, fulfilled the Law and gave Himself the sacrifice for man`s sin.
Jesus in His glorified body then ascended to the Father where he is told His authority is far above all in this age and also in that which is to come. (Eph. 1: 21) Jesus is also told to sit at the Father`s right hand till the Father had brought His enemies to His footstool. (Ps. 110: 1)
Then when the nations are in complete rebellion against the Lord then the Father gives Jesus His own throne to carry out His great authority. (Ps. 2: 6 & Ps. 110: 2)
The first rulership of the Godhead is because they made the world and had the power and might to rule over it and perform their purpose - that the nations are shown to not be able to rule righteously.
Then the second rulership is Jesus in His glorified body. He is given Kingship by the Father because He has legally done the Father`s will - born of David`s line in Israel, obeyed the Father, fulfilled the Law and gave Himself the sacrifice for man`s sin.
Jesus in His glorified body then ascended to the Father where he is told His authority is far above all in this age and also in that which is to come. (Eph. 1: 21) Jesus is also told to sit at the Father`s right hand till the Father had brought His enemies to His footstool. (Ps. 110: 1)
Then when the nations are in complete rebellion against the Lord then the Father gives Jesus His own throne to carry out His great authority. (Ps. 2: 6 & Ps. 110: 2)
Hebrews 2:8 KJV
Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
(Compare with):
1 Corinthians 13:12 KJV
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
(And):
1 John 3:2 KJV
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is
Can you "SEE" the similarities?
The next time we SEE Jesus, His plan of salvation will be COMPLETE. All things will be "put under Him" when
"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26 KJV
My dear brothers and sisters, death will be destroyed at our Saviour's coming. And all things we be made new!
Revelation 21:4-6 KJV
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
[5] And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
[6] And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
This is why many of us ( which really feels like a few of us ) are so passionately against the false, talmudic teaching of this thousand year extension of a sin cursed earth which Jesus even said Himself that He would NEVER BE PART OF.....HIS KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD!
It's as simple as 1-2-3:
1): Perfection in the garden
2) Earth cused in sin
3) Christ comes the second time to make all things new, so His people can live in righteousness forever:
1 Corinthians 15:22-24 KJV
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
[24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Let the dead bury their dead. Look for a new heavens and earth. And spend less time worshipping Israel ( 1948, politically terrorist acquisition, NOT blessed by God) and more time focusing on Jesus, the author and finisher of your faith.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL! Are you a comedian? If not, you have missed your calling in life. Unlike you, I am not afraid to address everything that is written in Hebrews 2:8, which I did, and I'm not afraid to explain what I believe.
Your evasiveness regarding what is written in the the rest of Hebrews 2:8 says it all about you. You can think that I get angry and frenzied in discussions all you want, but at least I explain how I interpret scripture, unlike yourself. You apparently have something to hide. If not, then prove it.
I don't care if you use a label to describe your view of Revelation 20, but when do you believe that Jesus returns in relation to the thousand years? Before or after?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
That will occur when Jesus returns and the reference to the "Lord God Almighty" in that verse is referring to God the Father.
The title "Lord God Almighty" refers to God the Father in other verses in the book (Revelation 4:8, Revelation 16:7, Revelation 19:6, Revelation 21:22).
Revelation 21:22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
See how "the Lord God Almighty" is differentiated from "the Lamb" in this verse? So, Revelation 11:17 confirms that Jesus will deliver His kingdom to the Father when He comes again, as Paul indicated in 1 Corinthians 15:23-24.
When do you believe that the end of the age will occur? Do you believe it will occur when Jesus returns? If so, then how do you interpret this passage...
Matthew 13:40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
