Update on World System.
- Thread starter Marilyn C
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Hi SI,
Good questions, thank you.
I agree the `LORD God Almighty` is the Father. In Rev. 11: 15 it says `the kingdoms of our LORD and His Christ,` differentiating between the two.
I believe the end of the age will occur after 7,000 years. Then there will be the New Heavens and New Earth.
Matt. 13: 40 is addressing that time `at the end of the age,` and the sorting out of those who are righteous and those who are not.
Note, the Body of Christ has been gathered together well before that and taken to the Lord`s own throne in the highest. 0Rev. 3: 21)
Yes, I believe the millennial kingdom will be on earth. God purposed for Israel to rule the nations of the world under Him. This is a time when Satan and his fallen angels are kept away by the word of God. Man is ruled righteously from Jerusalem. However, as God`s word shows even with no evil spirits and righteous rulership, man still is shown to desire to go his own way.
God is revealed as righteous giving every opportunity for man throughout time to show if he is morally acceptable. And we know that the ONLY one found worthy is the Lord Jesus Christ. Praise Him.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Okay, so with that in mind, why wouldn't you see Revelation 11:15 and Revelation 11:17 as referring to the time when Jesus delivers the kingdom to God the Father?
Since you are Premil, I will assume you are saying that you don't believe that the end of the age will occur when Jesus returns, which is what I asked you about. The reason I asked that question is because in the Olivet Discourse Jesus was asked what would be the sign of His coming, and of the end of the age (Matthew 24:3). I believe that was one question and that the question implies that the end of the age arrives at the second coming of Christ. With that being the case then that would mean that Matthew 13:43 is indicating that Jesus delivers the kingdom to the Father at the end of the age when He returns and then it will be referred to as "the kingdom of their Father".
Matthew 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”.
Apparently, based on when you think the end of the age will occur in relation to Christ's return, you see this as 3 questions instead of 2 questions? If so, in which verses do you think Jesus answers each question? If that's asking too much, then please tell me in which verses you think He answered the question about the end of the age (assuming you see that as a separate question)?
Rev. 11: 15 & 17 refer to when the glorified Jesus `has taken His great power and reigned.` We then read of the glorified Lord Jesus starting to `put down all rule and authority and power.` (1 Cor. 15: 24 & 25) And that is over time.
I see two questions
The end of the Gentiles rule will come to an end when the Lord Jesus and His angelic army deliver Israel and bring vengeance upon the rebellious. (Luke 21: 24)
The next chapter in Matthew, (25) Jesus is revealing His coming as the `bridegroom` to His former `wife` Israel. It is referred to as `the kingdom of heaven.` This was spoken about by Daniel, the kingdom rule of the God of heaven shall set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed. (Dan. 2: 44)
Previously Jesus had confirmed to Israel the promises made to the Fathers (Rom. 15: 8) - in the 7 parables of Matthew 13. These parables reveal the promises written about in the Old Testament concerning who will enter, what the rulership will be like, who is the King and when that will be. It was what Israel always looked for. (Dan. 7: 27)
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Did you forget that you agreed with me that "the Lord God Almighty" refers to God the Father?
Revelation 21:22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
See how the Lord God Almighty is differentiated from the Lamb in the above verse? So, read Revelation 11:17 with that in mind.
Revelation 11:16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
This is saying that God the Father will have taken His great power and reigned at that point, not Jesus. That means that Jesus will have delivered the kingdom to God the Father at that time.
I think you missed my comments.
I agree the `LORD God Almighty` is the Father. In Rev. 11: 15 it says `the kingdoms of our LORD and His Christ,` differentiating between the two.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
No, I did not miss them at all. I see you contradicting those comments in post #125 when you said "Rev. 11: 15 & 17 refer to when the glorified Jesus `has taken His great power and reigned.`".
Revelation 11:17 says: “We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.".
So, follow the logic here. We agree that the "Lord God Almighty" refers to God the Father, right? That means Revelation 11:17 refers to God the Father having taken His great power and reigned because it says that in relation to the Lord God Almighty, who is God the Father. In your post #125 you said that "Rev. 11: 15 & 17 refer to when the glorified Jesus `has taken His great power and reigned.`". That contradicts what you're saying about who the Lord God Almighty refers to. If you really agree that the Lord God Almighty reference in Revelation 11:17 refers to God the Father, then it makes no sense for you to say that the verse refers to Jesus taking His great power and reigning when it says that about the Lord God Almighty, who you agree refers to God the Father. Please address this.
In Rev. 11: 15 it says `the kingdoms of our LORD and His Christ,..`
His Christ.
`The LORD (Father) said to my Lord, (Son) "Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool.` (Ps. 110: 1)
When was or will be that time?
`The LORD (Father) shall send the rod of your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of your enemies.` (Ps. 110: 2)
So when was or will be that happening that the Son will rule after the Father has brought the nations to His footstool?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Can you please address what I said in post #128? In Revelation 11:17 who do you believe the "Lord God Almighty" represents? Before, you said God the Father. Are you going to stick with that? If so, then who do you think it is that Revelation 11:17 indicates will take His great power and reign at the sounding of the seventh trumpet when it indicates that the Lord God Almighty will do that?
Yes, SI. I was contradicting myself in 122 &125. Looking back on my posts I agree. Thank you for pointing that out.
`The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our LORD and His Christ, and He shall reign for ever and ever.` (Rev. 11: 15) I believe that the `LORD` is the Father` and Christ` is Jesus Christ.
`We give you thanks O Lord God Almighty, the one who is and who was and who is to come, because you have taken your great power and reigned.` (Rev. 11: 17)
The Lord God Almighty is Christ with the Father and Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is at the Father`s right hand and the Father has said -
`rule in the midst of your enemies.` (Ps. 110: 2)
Then we see that the Father has given the Son to execute judgments.
`For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has granted Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.` (John. 5: 26 & 27)
`Even so Lord God Almighty; true and righteous are your judgments.` (Rev. 16: 7)
Hope that is clearer as to what I believe.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I appreciate that you acknowledge that. I was very baffled as to how you were not seeing that. Mistakes happen. It's fine.
Sort of, but I'm trying to get you to address my point. Since we agree that the "Lord God Almighty" refers to God the Father and that Revelation 11:17 refers to the "Lord God Almighty" starting to reign, that means it's talking about God the Father starting to reign at that time. With that in mind, that would indicate that is the time when Jesus will deliver His kingdom to God the Father, as described in 1 Corinthians 15:24. Do you see my point?
Gray_Joy
Member
Yes. As Jesus told us, people don't see that his kingdom is spread across the whole world.
Grace and peace to you as well, Pin.
Does your name reflect a love for Golf?
Right. Well, as He told Nicodemus, "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God," and as He told Pilate, His kingdom "is not of this world," both of which you know, I'm sure.
PinSeeker, of some semblance thereof... Even something like "PS"... <smile> "Pin" just sounds weird, and kind of bad... <chuckles> Meh, not a big deal. <smile>
Yes. As you can tell, I'm sure, from my avatar.
Grace and peace!
Gray_Joy
Member
I am aware,yes. And that coincides with Jesus Tell ng us,that kingdom is spread across the whole world.
And why then that people cannot see it.
They must be different people in order to see and understand.
I do.
Imagine of the kingdom of our Lord was of this fallen world where the prince of the air is lord.
We too are in this world ,yet are no longer of it.
Fair enough. How about this variation, Seeker?
The silhouette and their back swing cuts off in my view of your profile block.
I'm using a smart phone that's passed through many hands. I think it's starting to feel the tug toward Android heaven.
I didn't want to presume.
For all I knew you could have been into orienteering.
;-)
Grace and peace!
Isn't it wonderful? :-D
We agree that the Lord God Almigty is the Father, however, I belive, as I pointed out, that it also includes - the Don and the Holy Spirit.
Now we know that the Godhead is - equal, in unity and of the same mind. Then when they operate there is a hierarchy.
Godhead - At the source there is the provision by the whole Godhead,
Father - with the initial movement of the Father;
Son - the administration of the Son;
Holy Spirit - and the direct agency of the Holy Spirit.
Thus we see the Father has said -
`rule in the midst of your enemies.` (Ps. 110: 2)
Then we see that the Father has given the Son to execute judgments.
`For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has granted Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.` (John. 5: 26 & 27)
`Even so Lord God Almighty; true and righteous are your judgments.` (Rev. 16: 7)
In the Godhead it is the Son who is ruling and executing the judgments as scripture tells us.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I know there is one God who exists as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and am not saying otherwise. But, God the Father is differentiated from God the Son. And, in verses like Revelation 21:22, the Lord God Almighty is differentiated from the Son, so the Lord God Almighty refers to God the Father specifically. Paul talks about the Son delivering His kingdom to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24). So, when a verse talks about the Lord God Almighty beginning to reign, with the understanding that the Lord God Almighty refers to God the Father, why would that not be referring to when Jesus delivers the kingdom to the Father?
I hear you SI. And I can see your logic. So let`s go with your view for now.
If (Rev. 11: 16) is the time of Jesus putting an end to all rule and authority and power, all enemies, and finally death, (1 Cor. 15: 24 - 26) and the Father ruling from then onwards, then why do we read of Jesus the Lamb going to war with the beast. (Rev. 17: 14)
Also, in Rev. 19: 15 we read of Jesus, the Word of God striking the nations and then ruling them with a rod of iron.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I'm glad this is the case whether you agree with me or not because it seems like most of the time when I talk to you, you are not understanding my points.
Revelation is not a chronological telling of events from beginning to end. That should be clear. Especially when you look at Revelation 12 which refers to the birth and ascension of Christ. And that comes after the verses we're talking about in Revelation 11 in relation to the seventh trumpet. So, you should not assume that everything is in chronological order. It results in contradictions.
There are several parallel passages or recapitulations in the book of Revelation that begin with the first coming of Christ and end with the second coming of Christ.
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