Update on World System.

Marilyn C · Monday at 4:53 PM

Spiritual Israelite said:
I'm glad this is the case whether you agree with me or not because it seems like most of the time when I talk to you, you are not understanding my points.

Revelation is not a chronological telling of events from beginning to end. That should be clear. Especially when you look at Revelation 12 which refers to the birth and ascension of Christ. And that comes after the verses we're talking about in Revelation 11 in relation to the seventh trumpet. So, you should not assume that everything is in chronological order. It results in contradictions.

There are several parallel passages or recapitulations in the book of Revelation that begin with the first coming of Christ and end with the second coming of Christ.

I`m glad you see Revelation that way too. Now we still have to address Rev. 19: 15.

`Now out of His mouth goes a sharp two edged sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.` (Rev. 19: 15)

So, we see that when the Lord comes in power and great glory bringing God`s wrath upon the rebellious He Himself will still go on to rule the nations with a rod of iron. Thus, it is NOT the time of death being the last enemy, or Jesus delivering up the kingdom to God the Father.

Spiritual Israelite · Monday at 5:00 PM

Marilyn C said:
I`m glad you see Revelation that way too.

So, you agree that there are parallel passages or recapitulations in Revelation. Okay. I'm not sure why you seemed to act as if things written after what is written in Revelation 11:15-18 have to occur chronologically after what is written there then. It seems that you understand that does not have to be the case.

Marilyn C said:
Now we still have to address Rev. 19: 15.

`Now out of His mouth goes a sharp two edged sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.` (Rev. 19: 15)

So, we see that when the Lord comes in power and great glory bringing God`s wrath upon the rebellious He Himself will still go on to rule the nations with a rod of iron. Thus, it is NOT the time of death being the last enemy, or Jesus delivering up the kingdom to God the Father.

Notice that Him ruling with a rod of iron is mentioned in conjunction with Him striking the nations (heathen) and treading "the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God". That's a picture of complete destruction. That lines up with the OT prophecy that is being referred to there...

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

The context of Jesus "ruling" the heathen with a rod of iron is in relation to Him breaking/destroying them, which is compared to a potter's vessel being dashed into pieces. Jesus will be destroying the heathen/unbelievers when He comes, not ruling over them in the way that premillennialists think. That is taught in several scriptures including Matthew 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Revelation 19:11-21.

PinSeeker · Monday at 5:00 PM

Marilyn C said:
I`m glad you see Revelation that way too. Now we still have to address Rev. 19: 15.

`Now out of His mouth goes a sharp two edged sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.` (Rev. 19: 15)

So, we see that when the Lord comes in power and great glory bringing God`s wrath upon the rebellious He Himself will still go on to rule the nations with a rod of iron. Thus, it is NOT the time of death being the last enemy, or Jesus delivering up the kingdom to God the Father.

It is the final victory of Jesus over Satan, and the final Judgment which will ensue. The events of Revelation 19:11-21 are parallel ~ the same as, but from a different perspective ~ Revelation 20:7-15, more specifically Revelation 20:7-10.

From a commentary by Dr.Vernon Poythress called The Returning King: A Guide to the Book of Revelation...

Christ rules the nations with an iron scepter, in fulfillment of Psalm 2:9. In Psalm 2 the rule is further defined as dashing “them to pieces like pottery.” This rule is to destroy the nations is rebellion (Revelation 19:18-21). The Bible as a whole, as well as Revelation, indicates that the Second Coming is for the purpose of salvation and renewal of the world (Revelation 21:1-8) as well as destruction. But Revelation 19:11-21 focuses on the destructive aspects. Evil must be destroyed not only for the sake of God’s justice, but for the sake of the purity of the new world (Revelation 21:27).

Grace and peace to you, Marilyn.

Marilyn C · Monday at 8:08 PM

Spiritual Israelite said:
So, you agree that there are parallel passages or recapitulations in Revelation. Okay. I'm not sure why you seemed to act as if things written after what is written in Revelation 11:15-18 have to occur chronologically after what is written there then. It seems that you understand that does not have to be the case.

Notice that Him ruling with a rod of iron is mentioned in conjunction with Him striking the nations (heathen) and treading "the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God". That's a picture of complete destruction. That lines up with the OT prophecy that is being referred to there...

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

The context of Jesus "ruling" the heathen with a rod of iron is in relation to Him breaking/destroying them, which is compared to a potter's vessel being dashed into pieces. Jesus will be destroying the heathen/unbelievers when He comes, not ruling over them in the way that premillennialists think. That is taught in several scriptures including Matthew 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Revelation 19:11-21.

I hear what you say, however, I see that the Lord will rule the nations (from heaven) in the millennium through Israel as promised. God is showing that although Satan and his fallen angels are contained and righteousness rules through Israel, that mankind still has a sinful heart and desires to go their own way.

Final judgment with fire down from heaven. (Rev. 20: 9)

I know you don`t believe that, so we`ll have to leave it to the Lord to reveal more to us. Thank you for a good discussion.

Marilyn C · Monday at 8:08 PM

PinSeeker said:
It is the final victory of Jesus over Satan, and the final Judgment which will ensue. The events of Revelation 19:11-21 are parallel ~ the same as, but from a different perspective ~ Revelation 20:7-15, more specifically Revelation 20:7-10.

From a commentary by Dr.Vernon Poythress called The Returning King: A Guide to the Book of Revelation...

Christ rules the nations with an iron scepter, in fulfillment of Psalm 2:9. In Psalm 2 the rule is further defined as dashing “them to pieces like pottery.” This rule is to destroy the nations is rebellion (Revelation 19:18-21). The Bible as a whole, as well as Revelation, indicates that the Second Coming is for the purpose of salvation and renewal of the world (Revelation 21:1-8) as well as destruction. But Revelation 19:11-21 focuses on the destructive aspects. Evil must be destroyed not only for the sake of God’s justice, but for the sake of the purity of the new world (Revelation 21:27).

Grace and peace to you, Marilyn.

I hear what you say, however, I see that the Lord will rule the nations (from heaven) in the millennium through Israel as promised. God is showing that although Satan and his fallen angels are contained and righteousness rules through Israel, that mankind still has a sinful heart and desires to go their own way.

Final judgment with fire down from heaven. (Rev. 20: 9)

I know you don`t believe that, so we`ll have to leave it to the Lord to reveal more to us.

PinSeeker · Tuesday at 10:25 AM

Marilyn C said:
I hear what you say, however, I see that the Lord will rule the nations (from heaven) in the millennium through Israel as promised.

It is the present reality. It may not look like it... or rather like we want it to... <smile> ...but it is...

Marilyn C said:
God is showing that although Satan and his fallen angels are contained and righteousness rules through Israel, that mankind still has a sinful heart and desires to go their own way.

Well, sure. Satan is bound from deceiving the nations and preventing the spread of the Gospel to all (Matthew 12:29, Revelation 20:1-6), but yes, all people have sinful hearts... but some are not still dead in their sin (Ephesians 2). Sure.

But none of this negates the fact that Jesus reigns... now. Who is your king, Marilyn? <smile> Gentile that I think you are, as am I? Who is your King? <smile>

Marilyn C said:
Final judgment with fire down from heaven. (Rev. 20: 9)

Right, Jesus is the "fire from heaven." Our God is a consuming fire. And He will return in His full glory.

Marilyn C said:
I know you don`t believe that...

Well I do, but I understand it, obviously, differently than you do.

Grace and peace to you.

Spiritual Israelite · Tuesday at 1:14 PM

Marilyn C said:
I hear what you say, however, I see that the Lord will rule the nations (from heaven) in the millennium through Israel as promised.

How exactly can they survive being broken/destroyed by His rod of iron and being tread in the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God?

Marilyn C said:
God is showing that although Satan and his fallen angels are contained and righteousness rules through Israel, that mankind still has a sinful heart and desires to go their own way.

Why would God need to show that when that's something we already know from scripture?

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Notice that there's no mention of Satan here. Man can be tempted "by his own desires" and not just by Satan and demons. We already know this. God has already shown this to us through His word.

Marilyn C said:
I know you don`t believe that, so we`ll have to leave it to the Lord to reveal more to us. Thank you for a good discussion.

That's fine, but I do hope you will give this more careful and prayerful thought.

Anchorite · Tuesday at 4:02 PM

Spiritual Israelite said:
Why would God need to show that when that's something we already know from scripture?

God shows things to the world, because not everyone reads scripture. You should stop trying to understand everything through your own personal view.

Spiritual Israelite · Tuesday at 4:37 PM

Anchorite said:
God shows things to the world, because not everyone reads scripture. You should stop trying to understand everything through your own personal view.

You have nothing to offer but false accusations. I understand things through scripture, not my own personal view. And people who haven't read scripture can be shown things by those who do. Premils have to come up with reasons for a future thousand years to take place that are never given in scripture itself.

Anchorite · Tuesday at 4:58 PM

Spiritual Israelite said:
You have nothing to offer but false accusations. I understand things through scripture, not my own personal view. And people who haven't read scripture can be shown things by those who do. Premils have to come up with reasons for a future thousand years to take place that are never given in scripture itself.

You understand things through your anti-premil orientation, seeing those who challenge you or disagree with you as necessarily pre-mils.

You do not understand how vast is the unreached people groups who do not read the scriptures and do not have anyone around to show them things. So God can show things to the world.

It is estimated that of the 8.08 billion people alive in the world today, 3.42 billion of them live in unreached people groups with little or no access to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

According to Joshua Project, there are approximately 17,269 unique people groups in the world with 7,188 of them considered unreached (over 42% of the world’s population)! The vast majority (85%) of these least reached groups exist in the 10/40 window and less than 3% of missionary work is done among these people.

Spiritual Israelite · Wednesday at 12:17 PM

Anchorite said:
You understand things through your anti-premil orientation, seeing those who challenge you or disagree with you as necessarily pre-mils.

You do not understand how vast is the unreached people groups who do not read the scriptures and do not have anyone around to show them things. So God can show things to the world.

It is estimated that of the 8.08 billion people alive in the world today, 3.42 billion of them live in unreached people groups with little or no access to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

According to Joshua Project, there are approximately 17,269 unique people groups in the world with 7,188 of them considered unreached (over 42% of the world’s population)! The vast majority (85%) of these least reached groups exist in the 10/40 window and less than 3% of missionary work is done among these people.

The truth of what Revelation 20 is all about is found in scripture, not in the numbers calculated by the Joshua Project.

Jack · Thursday at 6:43 AM

Spiritual Israelite said:
I know there is one God who exists as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and am not saying otherwise. But, God the Father is differentiated from God the Son. And, in verses like Revelation 21:22, the Lord God Almighty is differentiated from the Son, so the Lord God Almighty refers to God the Father specifically.

Revelation 1:8 8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Revelation 1:18 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore.

Anchorite · Thursday at 7:57 AM

Spiritual Israelite said:
The truth of what Revelation 20 is all about is found in scripture, not in the numbers calculated by the Joshua Project.

How does Revelation 20 contradict the numbers calculated by the Joshua Project regarding unreached people groups? Do you persist in denying that there are vast multitudes that need the gospel?

Spiritual Israelite · Thursday at 3:11 PM

Jack said:
Revelation 1:8 8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Revelation 1:18 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore.

I was talking about the phrase "the Lord God Almighty" in particular. Of course, Jesus is God also, but that particular phrase is used to refer to God the Father.

Revelation 21:22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

In this verse the Lord God Almighty refers to God the Father and the Lamb refers to the Son of God (or God the Son).

Spiritual Israelite · Thursday at 3:12 PM

Anchorite said:
How does Revelation 20 contradict the numbers calculated by the Joshua Project regarding unreached people groups? Do you persist in denying that there are vast multitudes that need the gospel?

Do you persist in making false accusations? I don't deny that there are many who haven't heard the gospel yet. Address what I say instead of what your strawman says. I use scripture to back up my view, so address my interpretations of the scriptures rather than falsely claiming that I deny that there are multitudes who still need to hear the gospel.

Jack · Thursday at 4:13 PM

Spiritual Israelite said:
I was talking about the phrase "the Lord God Almighty" in particular. Of course, Jesus is God also, but that particular phrase is used to refer to God the Father.

Revelation 21:22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

In this verse the Lord God Almighty refers to God the Father and the Lamb refers to the Son of God (or God the Son).

Jesus THE Almighty. He said so. Just like baptizing "in the NAME (SINGULAR) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit",

Spiritual Israelite · Thursday at 5:00 PM

Jack said:
Jesus THE Almighty. He said so. Just like baptizing "in the NAME (SINGULAR) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit",

Are you unable to actually address what others say or do you just not want to do that?

Revelation 21:22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Do you interpret this as saying "for Jesus the Almighty and Jesus the Lamb are its temple" or do you understand that this verse is referring to God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ? Do you think that God the Father is never differentiated from the Son?

1 Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

This says that Jesus Christ will deliver His kingdom to God the Father and then God the Father will reign. So, why couldn't the following verse relate to that, keeping in mind that Revelation 21:22 differentiates between "the Lord God Almighty" (God the Father) and "the Lamb" (Jesus Christ)?

Revelation 11:16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.

Jack · Thursday at 5:02 PM

Spiritual Israelite said:
Are you unable to actually address what others say or do you just not want to do that?

Revelation 21:22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Do you interpret this as saying "for Jesus the Almighty and Jesus the Lamb are its temple" or do you understand that this verse is referring to God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ? Do you think that God the Father is never differentiated from the Son?

1 Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

This says that Jesus Christ will deliver His kingdom to God the Father and then God the Father will reign. So, why couldn't the following verse relate to that, keeping in mind that Revelation 21:22 differentiates between "the Lord God Almighty" (God the Father) and "the Lamb" (Jesus Christ)?

Revelation 11:16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.

It's known as THE TRINITY! Father, Son and Holy Spirit, ALMIGHTY GOD!

Spiritual Israelite · Thursday at 5:13 PM

Jack said:
It's known as THE TRINITY! Father, Son and Holy Spirit, ALMIGHTY GOD!

You continue to not address my point, but that isn't surprising.

Revelation 21:22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Do you interpret the above verse like this:

Revelation 21:22 (Jack Version?): But I saw no temple in it, for the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and the Lamb are its temple.

The Son is the Lamb, so this would be redundant. While the Father and Son along with the Holy Spirit are on God, scripture does differentiate between God the Father and the Son and that is what is the case in verses like Revelation 21:22 and Revelation 11:15.

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