What is the meaning of Grace, according to the Bible?

PeterAndroz said:

Hey Randy.
Do you agree with those teachings of Jesus ?

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You're not answering my question either, are you? I agree with Jesus' teachings, and with the entire Bible. My concern is not with Jesus' teachings but with how *you're* applying those teachings. Satan himself uses the Scriptures to pass on corrupt beliefs. He did that with Jesus in the wilderness. Do you believe that?

Randy Kluth said:

You're not answering my question either, are you? I agree with Jesus' teachings, and with the entire Bible. My concern is not with Jesus' teachings but with how *you're* applying those teachings. Satan himself uses the Scriptures to pass on corrupt beliefs. He did that with Jesus in the wilderness. Do you believe that?

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""I agree with Jesus' teachings, and with the entire Bible."""
You agree with the entire Bible ?
Titus 3:5-7, Gal 2:16, Eph 2:8-9, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1
Teaches works/performance not required to enter eternal life
Matt 25:41-46 teaches they are

So which ones apply today ?

Randy Kluth said:

You're not answering my question either, are you? I agree with Jesus' teachings, and with the entire Bible. My concern is not with Jesus' teachings but with how *you're* applying those teachings. Satan himself uses the Scriptures to pass on corrupt beliefs. He did that with Jesus in the wilderness. Do you believe that?

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Matthew teaches slightly different to Paul,thats either due to contradictions or their audience is not the same

1stCenturyLady said:

Except for your thoughts on being born again is a change to the body, I agreed with much of what you had to say. What I believe about being born again is that it is about the inner man, not the body at all. The inner man is called the old man and consists of the rebirth of our spirit and soul. The spirit is our mind. And the soul is our conscience/heart where God's laws are written and are part of our new nature. We no longer have a sin nature to deal with constantly.

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Just two comments:

1. The mind is a funciton of the soul...not of the spirit.
Everyone has a mind
Not everyone has a spirit.

2. If we no longer have a sin nature...why do we sin?

sondring7 said:

Matthew teaches slightly different to Paul,thats either due to contradictions or their audience is not the same

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Hi Sondring
There can be no contradictions in the NT.
If there are,,,we can just throw it out.

What do you think Matthew teaches that is different than what Paul teaches??

PeterAndroz said:

""I agree with Jesus' teachings, and with the entire Bible."""
You agree with the entire Bible ?
Titus 3:5-7, Gal 2:16, Eph 2:8-9, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1
Teaches works/performance not required to enter eternal life
Matt 25:41-46 teaches they are

So which ones apply today ?

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Which one Peter Androz?
It's a really important question that requires stating what the NT teaches.

So is performance not necessary
or is performance necessary?

Is the NT contradicting itself as another member just seems to have stated?

PeterAndroz said:

""I agree with Jesus' teachings, and with the entire Bible."""
You agree with the entire Bible ?
Titus 3:5-7, Gal 2:16, Eph 2:8-9, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1
Teaches works/performance not required to enter eternal life
Matt 25:41-46 teaches they are

So which ones apply today ?

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Who said I denied works/performance in the pursuit of Eternal Life.? Those works are reserved for acts that exhibit faith in the exclusive atonement made available *only* by Jesus Christ. That's how I interpret those verses.

GodsGrace said:

1. The mind is a funciton of the soul...not of the spirit.
Everyone has a mind
Not everyone has a spirit.

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Galatian 5:17 and Romans 7:25 shows us that before Christ we do have a spirit, and the texts together show that our spirit is our mind, leaving our heart to be our soul. Just as "the flesh" has two meanings; so does "the soul." BTW, there is a publishers error in our Bibles when they capitalized Spirit, instead of spirit, in Galatians 5:17. Once born again and filled with the Spirit we are no longer in the "flesh" to fight our minds knowledge of right and wrong. The laws of God are written on our hearts to keep them naturally, not in opposition to our old sin nature which has been cleansed and taken away by the blood of Jesus

GodsGrace said:

2. If we no longer have a sin nature...why do we sin?

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Because there are two types of sin that because of the Reformation, Protestants are not aware of, but for 3,500 years it has been known, now only to Catholics and Orthodox. There are sins unto death, and sins not unto death. Jesus as the Author of our faith cleansed our old man (old nature) of sins unto death. Sins not unto death are immature fruit of the Spirit, that are matured by Jesus as the Finisher of our faith. 2 Peter 1:5-7 shows that long process.

sondring7 said:

Matthew teaches slightly different to Paul,thats either due to contradictions or their audience is not the same

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Actually, the big difference beween Matthew and Paul is time. Matthew relates the account of Jesus while the Law of Moses was still the rule. It was a different covenant from that of Jesus' death and resurrection.

Matthew would've agreed with Paul after the death and resurrection of Christ. We need to see what Matthew wrote in the book of Matthew in the context of the Law, and in light of it pointing to Christ as the final means of redemption.

1stCenturyLady said:

Galatian 5:17 and Romans 7:25 shows us that before Christ we do have a spirit, and the texts together show that our spirit is our mind, leaving our heart to be our soul. Just as "the flesh" has two meanings; so does "the soul." BTW, there is a publishers error in our Bibles when they capitalized Spirit, instead of spirit, in Galatians 5:17. Once born again and filled with the Spirit we are no longer in the "flesh" to fight our minds knowledge of right and wrong. The laws of God are written on our hearts to keep them naturally, not in opposition to our old sin nature which has been cleansed and taken away by the blood of Jesus

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This is poetic language but I won't be debating this.
How do you explain
1 thessalonians 5:23
23Now may the God of peace make you holy in every way, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again.

Man is composed of
BODY
SOUL
SPIRIT

Each part has its funciton:

1stCenturyLady said:

Because there are two types of sin that because of the Reformation, Protestants are not aware of, but for 3,500 years it has been known, now only to Catholics and Orthodox. There are sins unto death, and sins not unto death. Jesus as the Author of our faith cleansed our old man (old nature) of sins unto death. Sins not unto death are immature fruit of the Spirit, that are matured by Jesus as the Finisher of our faith. 2 Peter 1:5-7 shows that long process.

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I agree but that does not answer my question to you.
You say we no longer have the sin nature.
That it has be eradicted at salvation.

Since it is the sin nature/the flesh, that causes one to sin and you say we no longer have it...
WHAT causes us to sin after salvation?

Christianity teaches that we retain the sin nature but that it is kept under submission.
We are no longer slaves to it.
It has lost its power.

Romans 8:12-14
12Therefore, dear brothers and sisters,e you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do. 13For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature,f you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are childreng of God.

Randy Kluth said:

Who said I denied works/performance in the pursuit of Eternal Life.? Those works are reserved for acts that exhibit faith in the exclusive atonement made

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a. Titus 3:5-7, Gal 2:16, Eph 2:8-9, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1
Do those verse teach that some type of 'performance' is required to >>>ENTER<<< Heaven ?
NO
.
b. Matt 25:41-46
Do those verses teach that some type of 'performance' is required to >>>ENTER<<< Heaven ?
YES
..
Which do you believe applies today, A or B ?

PeterAndroz said:

a. Titus 3:5-7, Gal 2:16, Eph 2:8-9, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1
Do those verse teach that some type of 'performance' is required to >>>ENTER<<< Heaven ?
NO
.
b. Matt 25:41-46
Do those verses teach that some type of 'performance' is required to >>>ENTER<<< Heaven ?
YES
..
Which do you believe applies today, A or B ?

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Hmmm.
Very interesting that you never reply to my posts to you.
Afraid aren't you?

You know very well that our performance is salvific because Jesus taught this.
This is why you do not reply.
You worry that my posts might be right.

Your posts are not well thought out.
A verse that does not speak to performance does not prove that performance is not necessary because there are other verses that prove that performance IS necessary in order for us to be saved.

I would suggest that you read the entire New Testament and not just the parts that you like and agree with.
Some do seem to do this.
It is not what Jesus would appreciate.

Here is what Jesus would appreciate:

John 14.15
15“If you love me, obeyd my commandments.


John 15:10
10When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.


1 John 5:3
3Loving God means keeping his commandments, and his commandments are not burdensome.


Hebrews 5:9
9In this way, God qualified him as a perfect High Priest, and He became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him.



Now, let me ask you this:
Do any of the above verses state that we are to have faith in Jesus?
No.

The reason is because THAT is stated in other verses.
Every teaching that saves will not be repeated every time.

However, ALL verse teaching what will save a person must be taken into consideration and accepted.
The entire New Testament teaches salvation...
all the information given must be COMBINED into one continuous idea.

NOT taken verse by verse and used as some do to prove any particular point.

PeterAndroz said:

a. Titus 3:5-7, Gal 2:16, Eph 2:8-9, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1
Do those verse teach that some type of 'performance' is required to >>>ENTER<<< Heaven ?
NO
.
b. Matt 25:41-46
Do those verses teach that some type of 'performance' is required to >>>ENTER<<< Heaven ?
YES
..
Which do you believe applies today, A or B ?

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Peter, the choices you provide do not address how one might apply those things. As I said in my statement...

1) We do not, in our works performance, self-atone. Only Christ did works that eternally atoned for our sins.
2) We do works performance with respect to acting together with God's word. When He speaks to us regarding our sins, we repent. When we convert to Christ we choose to live in him.

Our ability to enter Heaven happens because we accept Christ's atonement and act on it. We do not self-atone in our works. We operate together with Christ and his Word to do things that obtain the benefit of his atonement.

That is how we enter heaven, by responding to his provision for our repentance. Some call it a Synergy.

Whatever we do alone, without God's Word, is meaningless. Whatever we do with God's help has virtue. Anything we do to get Saved happens by the help of Christ.

GodsGrace said:

I agree but that does not answer my question to you.
You say we no longer have the sin nature.
That it has be eradicted at salvation.

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I see that your chart calls the spirit the "breath of life" so why do you think the unsaved do not have a spirit?

Romans 6 calls the sin nature "the old man." For those born again the sin nature has been crucified. That means dead. That is why in Romans 8:8-9 it says in context:

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

GodsGrace said:

Since it is the sin nature/the flesh, that causes one to sin and you say we no longer have it...
WHAT causes us to sin after salvation?

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That depends on what you refer to as "sin." Give me an example.

GodsGrace said:

Christianity teaches that we retain the sin nature but that it is kept under submission.
We are no longer slaves to it.
It has lost its power.

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By "Christianity" you must be referring to some denomination, so who are you listening to? Is it Calvinist? Is it Arminian? Is it Catholic?

GodsGrace said:

Romans 8:12-14
12Therefore, dear brothers and sisters,e you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do. 13For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature,f you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are childreng of God.

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I found out recently that verse 13 has been mistranslated from the original Greek. "through the power of" and "you" are not in the original. It actually reads "But if the Spirit puts to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live." It was such a blessing to hear this, because now that Scripture reads in line with what happened to me when trying as hard as I could, because of the knowledge I had, I could not cease committing adultery. Then one evening at church, I saw a vision, and heard God's voice, and all desire to commit adultery was lifted out of me. I could actually feel the heaviness leave and I felt light as a feather. It is the Spirit that does the crucifying and cleansing, not us. Now verse 13 makes sense once read properly.

Randy Kluth said:

Peter, the choices you provide do not address how one might apply those things. As I said in my statement...

1) We do not, in our works performance, self-atone. Only Christ did works that eternally atoned for our sins.
2) We do works performance with respect to acting together with God's word. When He speaks to us regarding our sins, we repent. When we convert to Christ we choose to live in him.

Our ability to enter Heaven happens because we accept Christ's atonement and act on it. We do not self-atone in our works. We operate together with Christ and his Word to do things that obtain the benefit of his atonement.

That is how we enter heaven, by responding to his provision for our repentance. Some call it a Synergy.

Whatever we do alone, without God's Word, is meaningless. Whatever we do with God's help has virtue. Anything we do to get Saved happens by the help of Christ.

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""1) We do not, in our works performance, self-atone. Only Christ did works that eternally atoned for our sins.

So then why are these 'believers sent to EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT ?
Matt 25:-
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

bro.tan said:

In, (Is. 42:21) we find another prophecy concerning Christ and the law. It reads, (v.21) The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he (Jesus) will magnify the law, and make it honourable. When you magnify something you enlarge it and bring it out more of its detail and richness. Jesus revealed the fulfillment of this prophecy when he explained, (Mat.5:27-28) (v.27) Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: (v.28) But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart

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In the time of the Law of Moses, the Prophets spoke only in the context of that Law, knowing that depreciating it in any way would only cause people to rationalize it away and no longer fully observe it. As long as the Law was in effect, it was the job of the Prophets, and indeed the Messiah, to protect and preserve it.

This has nothing to do with the fact the Law, as a Covenant, would be fully broken in the time of Messiah, necessitating that a new Law come forth, centered on the Messiah himself, and not on Moses. This New Covenant did not condemn either Israel or the human race. Rather, if enacted it relied on grace and initiated a righteousness that was no longer condemned as flawed and temporary.

bro.tan said:

By magnifying the law and making it honorable, the spiritual intent of the law is now emphasized which goes far beyond the mere the physical intent. God has raised His standards, not lowered them!

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Stating that murder is equally anger, and adultery equally lust and covetousness, is not an enlargement of the Law. It was the Law from the start, applied in various contexts.

What was new about the New Covenant was the fact that Law no longer suppressed men and kept them under condemnation, falling short of Eternal LIfe. The New Covenant, by contrast, forgave sin and enabled men to continue to walk with God despite their sin and actually obtain the promise of Eternal Life.

This new way made the condemnatory rituals of the Law no longer necessary, to prevent human from entering eternal life. The promise of a resurrection made such rituals unnecessary and no longer applicable.

bro.tan said:

All God ever wanted was what was best for us! He designed us to be His children. We are happiest when we love and obey Him. He is a God who is totally righteous and holy. God cannot sin. And He wants us to follow in His footsteps. The person that says, (1John:2:6) “that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.”

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Why are you arguing this? It is true without an aspect of the OT Covenant of Law!

bro.tan said:

There are those who believe that because Christ overcame sin and kept the law that now we don't have to keep God's laws. But what do the Scriptures tell us?

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Jesus did not have to follow the Law of Moses at all! He was perfect and had no need to give offerings for his sin. He had no need to be given commandments to be righteous since he was God in the flesh--perfect righteousness before God.

So, we follow him, and not a Law that kept us out of heaven, or only in a temporary relationship with God. In following Jesus we find his grace, which surpasses the Law and gives us a righteousness that never ends.

bro.tan said:

Here's what Jesus said:

Didn't Jesus say in (Mat.5:17-19) (v.17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (v.18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (v.19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

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I've already explained this. Jesus taught the Law while the era of Law was still in force. Every requirement of the Law was still being required by Messiah.

But Jesus was saying that he would fulfill it. He had not yet fulfilled it. He had come to fulfill it.

And when did he fulfill it? He fulfilled it on the cross, and in his resurrection. That's where an eternal covenant was made with God's People. The Law, by contrast, condemned Man and only provided a temporary means of relationship between God and Israel.

What Jesus was saying was that the testimony of the Law against human sin was eternal, up until the point where he would fulfill the Law. Until the end of this present universe, sinful man would have to die, as testified to by the Law. But Jesus would fulfill the Law not by just keeping the Law, but rather, by completing its purpose in a resurrection freely given to God's People.

bro.tan said:

Jesus came to fulfill, to fill to the full (Gk. plereo). He fulfilled many prophecies - but not all. There are many in the Book of Revelation still to be fulfilled.

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You are repeating the same arguments. Jesus' fulfillment of the Law was not the fulfillment of all prophecies. Rather, it was the fulfillment of a specific set of prophecies that had to do with God's covenant with His People.

PeterAndroz said:

""1) We do not, in our works performance, self-atone. Only Christ did works that eternally atoned for our sins.

So then why are these 'believers sent to EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT ?
Matt 25:-
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

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Those who are sent into eternal punishment don't wish to live in the presence of Christ for eternity. So they move quite a ways down the road. They don't wish to surrender to the need to be chained to Christ in order to serve God properly. They therefore do not love the good works of Christ, which they deem too "sentimental." They want to be "cool" and hang out with their buddies who love to indulge in their own covetous desires.

Bottom line: nothing we can do can self-atone. We need to become "slaves of God," and abide in Christ so that like him we can do good. In choosing to do good we are repenting of doing things without him. There's where I'd rather be, and that's where I choose to go. I hope you do too?

Randy Kluth said:

Yes, under the system of Law God required obedience as an expression of faith in His mercy. That is true under any system that God has in place. Today, we are under the New Covenant and its own form of obedience.

I'm *not* trying to overturn these verses! I'm placing them in their proper context, whereas you seem as if you're not. You quote commandments under the Old Testament system as if they apply in the same way within the New Testament system, and they do not! Paul plainly said they do not!

The "royal law" has to do with a universal law of human relations--it does not address a particular covenant system.

I'm not going to "plant" false doctrine in my head! You are the one who is way out on a limb, believing and teaching law as if it remains OT Law! If you do that you're placing people under a system that condemned the human race, and intended to place our hope in Christ's resurrection.

You are confused. It is the entire system of OT Law that was nailed to the cross. What common moral laws remain are part of an entirely new system. Laws like love others as you wish to be loved existed from the beginning and do not imply the Law of Moses at all.

No, the entire system of Law, which was a covenant between God and Israel, was nailed to the Cross. It was a temporary system designed to keep Israel in relationship with God until Christ came and brought final redemption. That meant that the Law of Moses as a system was no longer needed.

What you can do is distinguish the Moral Law from systems of law, or specific covenants. There may be in common moral laws from one covenant to another. But the two covenants of Moses' Law and Christ's Law are necessarily different. We don't restore the Law of Moses simply because the New Covenant has moral laws in common with it!

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You are confusing the law of Moses with the law of God. The law of Moses is about Judaism....circumcision, eating Kosher and such. These are HOLINESS laws that separate the Jews from the other nations. But through Christ we have a real holiness...the holiness of the perfection of Christ. As such we are able to FULFILL the law of God, to walk as Jesus walked.

Randy Kluth said:

Those who are sent into eternal punishment don't wish to live in the presence of Christ for eternity. So they move quite a ways down the road. They don't wish to surrender to the need to be chained to Christ in order to serve God properly. They therefore do not love the good works of Christ, which they deem too "sentimental." They want to be "cool" and hang out with their buddies who love to indulge in their own covetous desires.

Bottom line: nothing we can do can self-atone. We need to become "slaves of God," and abide in Christ so that like him we can do good. In choosing to do good we are repenting of doing things without him. There's where I'd rather be, and that's where I choose to go. I hope you do too?

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""Those who are sent into eternal punishment don't wish to live in the presence of Christ for eternity""

Agreed, Matt 25:41-46 teaches that a believer who fails to perform goes to EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT
..
Where does Paul teach the same ?
Verses, RK, verses