Breaking Free From Fake Religion

Fathom · Friday at 6:12 AM

Wrangler · Friday at 8:01 AM

nedsk said:
James says the opposite. Works do not save. Works complete out faith because faith alon is not sufficient. If faith alone was sufficient but wouldn't need completion. No one has ever claimed works saves.

Well said.

Years ago I wrote about the English confusion of what work, in the ordinary sense, means in the American culture compared to the plural workS in the Bible. Those so opposed to workS are so anal as to suppose one drowning at sea ”saves” himself when reaching out to a life preserver thrown his way by a Coast Guard Ensign. No one makes this claim.

So, we have different words with different meanings that folks like @bdavidc make into an IDOL of theological divide.

WorkS in the Bible means achieving the goal of salvation without divine assistance, on your own merit.
Work, in the general sense, is akin to action, completing one’s faith known by the equation BELIEF + ACTION = FAITH

We are not called to believe without action, without accountability, without objective and verifiable transformation. We are called to faith, which means action (aka work, in the normal sense). God did not send his son to die brutally for us to believe yet live our lives as if we don’t believe; he sent him to alter the trajectory of our actions, our work, our words, our choices.

It’s really very simple, once one puts aside their IDOLATRY.

Episkopos · Friday at 8:39 AM

Wrangler said:
Well said.

Years ago I wrote about the English confusion of what work, in the ordinary sense, means in the American culture compared to the plural workS in the Bible. Those so opposed to workS are so anal as to suppose one drowning at sea ”saves” himself when reaching out to a life preserver thrown his way by a Coast Guard Ensign. No one makes this claim.

So, we have different words with different meanings that folks like @bdavidc make into an IDOL of theological divide.

WorkS in the Bible means achieving the goal of salvation without divine assistance, on your own merit.

Work, in the general sense, is akin to action, completing one’s faith known by the equation BELIEF + ACTION = FAITH

We are not called to believe without action, without accountability, without objective and verifiable transformation. We are called to faith, which means action (aka work, in the normal sense). God did not send his son to die brutally for us to believe yet live our lives as if we don’t believe; he sent him to alter the trajectory of our actions, our work, our words, our choices.

It’s really very simple, once one puts aside their IDOLATRY.

The strawman about works and salvation is that Paul was preaching against the works of the law which is Judaism. Not against doing righteousness.

The other strawman is that we can be neutral in regards to works. Either we work good or evil....there is no behaviour outside of good or evil. So often people want forgiveness for a constant evil...thinking they are not saved by works.

But people are VERY ignorant of God's judgments.

We are INDEED saved by both faith and by works in righteousness. People think faith means beliefs...It doesn't. People will think they are saved by the accuracy of their beliefs so they don't have to work righteousness.

The truth is so far over the heads of modern evangelicals....

For righteousness we are saved either by faith or by works....all one has to do is read the bible to see this.

In holiness no works are required...just faith. No one can work their way into the kingdom realm.

That is what confuses modern believers...they have never known anything but the flesh...so they jumble both standards into a mess that accomplishes NEITHER righteousness nor holiness. Both are spoiled.

Wrangler · Friday at 10:34 AM

Episkopos said:
The strawman

Episkopos said:
No one can work their way into the kingdom realm.

The ferocity to oppose working for the God’s sake is appalling. “Not saved by works” is exposed as the IDOL it is by the poster who pointed out no one ever claimed we were.

nedsk said:
No one has ever claimed works saves.

mailmandan · Friday at 10:59 AM

Episkopos said:
The strawman about works and salvation is that Paul was preaching against the works of the law which is Judaism. Not against doing righteousness.

Typical argument made by works-salvationists. Saved by "these" works (good works/works of righteousness etc..) but just not "those" works (works of the law) *yet when it comes to the moral aspect of the law we cannot dissect good works from the law. (Leviticus 19:18; Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16)

Episkopos said:
We are INDEED saved by both faith and by works in righteousness. People think faith means beliefs...It doesn't. People will think they are saved by the accuracy of their beliefs so they don't have to work righteousness.

Titus 3:5 - not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

Episkopos · Friday at 11:27 AM

mailmandan said:
Typical argument made by works-salvationists. Saved by "these" works (good works/works of righteousness etc..) but just not "those" works (works of the law) *yet when it comes to the moral aspect of the law we cannot dissect good works from the law. (Leviticus 19:18; Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16)

Titus 3:5 - not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

AS I said that went as far over your head as a boeing 747....holiness is NOT by our effort. It is a gift of grace by faith. Paul is simply saying that holiness salvation is not like righteousness salvation. But you would have to be able to walk AND chew gum at the same time to understand the levels associated with the WAYS of God.

But what your brain can't hear without your synapses misfiring...is that the world will not be judged based on holiness...but based on righteousness...therefore for the WORLD...it is by works as well as faith. The world will ONLY be judged by their works. Read the bible.

The church will be judged against the stature of Christ. Not so the world.

mailmandan · Friday at 11:52 AM

Episkopos said:
AS I said that went as far over your head as a boeing 747....holiness is NOT by our effort. It is a gift of grace by faith. Paul is simply saying that holiness salvation is not like righteousness salvation. But you would have to be able to walk AND chew gum at the same time to understand the levels associated with the WAYS of God.

But what your brain can't hear without your synapses misfiring...is that the world will not be judged based on holiness...but based on righteousness...therefore for the WORLD...it is by works as well as faith. The world will ONLY be judged by their works. Read the bible.

The church will be judged against the stature of Christ. Not so the world.

The gospel continues to go far over your head.. (Romans 1:16; Corinthians 1:18-21; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4) The only gospel that you preach is the "holier than thou" gospel which is according to SELF.

SELF promotion
SELF righteousness
SELF preservation

mailmandan · 2026-10-17T05:36:49-0500

bdavidc said:
Amen, and that is a very helpful Scripture summary. You laid out the case clearly and let the Word speak for itself.

I especially appreciate the distinction you made between salvation by faith apart from works and a dead profession of faith that produces no fruit. That keeps Paul and James exactly where Scripture puts them.

Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-10 make the order plain. We are saved by grace through faith, not by works, and then we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works.

Amen! Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Jesus saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" (Romans 3:24-26) and not based on the merits of our works. (Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) *Which is not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" barren of works. (James 2:14)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 5:1; 5:9; 11:6); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

bdavidc · 2026-10-18T19:02:51-0500

Fathom said:
What's your view on 1 Timothy 2:15, where it says women are saved through childbearing? Isn't procreation part of Jewish law?

1 Timothy 2:15
But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

We need to read 1 Timothy 2:15 in its context and in light of what Scripture teaches about salvation. First, Paul is not teaching that women receive eternal salvation by having children. If that were true, what about women who cannot have children or who never marry? Are they excluded from salvation? Of course not.

Paul has just referred to Adam and Eve in verses 13-14. He is discussing the woman's role, not giving another way of obtaining eternal life.

The word translated "saved" does not always mean salvation from sin. It can also mean being delivered or preserved, depending on the context. Paul connects childbearing with continuing "in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." The exact nature of the deliverance in this verse is debated, so we should not claim more than Scripture establishes.

But one thing is certain. Paul is not contradicting what he plainly teaches elsewhere. Galatians 3:26 says, "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." And Romans 3:28 says, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Neither passage makes an exception for women.

As for your question about Jewish law, where does the Law of Moses say that women must bear children to receive eternal salvation? It doesn't.

We cannot take one difficult verse and use it to overturn the many clear passages teaching salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

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Breaking Free From Fake Religion

Fathom

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