Forsaken

@John Caldwell ,

There's something a friend of mine, who's knowledgeable about Biblical Hebrew, tells me, that there are many many nuances in Hebrew "that are there if you see them, and not there if you don't."

That is to say, there is a lot of potential meaning but that's hard to pin down without parallel and explanatory passages. So when I come to things like this entangled in the thorns, it "preaches well", but like so many things that "preach well", may not have so much a foundation after all.

Much love!

John Caldwell said:

Yes. That is what I was wondering. I was wondering if you thought that God literally abandoned Christ when He was on the cross.

I agree with your interpretation. It seems (especially if we link this to Psalm 22) that God never abandoned Christ but rather did not deliver him from suffering and death as redemption was to be accomplished through it. Christ was to suffer and die, and God hears Him and delivers Him from its bonds.

I like the ensnared idea as well (it carries the same context).

Click to expand...

The Scriptures are not a wax nose to be punched into any shape that suits your theology.
You cannot change, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me" into "My God, My God, You haven't forsaken Me,"
At a minimum, our Lord felt Himself entirely alone and forsaken. "Why are You so far from helping Me, and from the words of My groaning? O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear; and in the night season and am not silent."

John Caldwell said:

Yes. "why are you so far from helping me" is along the lines of what I believe the passage means.

But I think it an expression rather than divine bewilderment.

What exactly do you think it means that Christ was "forsaken"?

Click to expand...

I've just replied to this on the other thread. It means that, as a man, He felt Himself forsaken. Otherwise He would have said something else, wouldn't He? When He was praying in the garden, His Father sent an angel to strengthen Him. On the cross, nothing. He felt Himself utterly alone.

BUT, when He spoke the words at the ninth hour, the Father deemed that propitiation had been made, the sun came out again and the Lord Jesus was able to consign His spirit to His 'Father.'

Remember of course that Jesus was not killed. He died, but He died by will alone. "No one takes My life, I lay it down."

This is in the Divine, as He has life in Himself. He has the power to lay down His life, and the power to take it up again.

In humanity, He was put into the agonies of death, but did not die. Jesus alone had power in the day of His death. As @Steve Owen pointed out, "It is finished", and then Jesus died, again, of His Own will.

So what exactly transpired during those hours of darkness that led to Jesus saying "It is finished", and then to release His Spirit?

I can't think of where we're told this, any thoughts?

Much love!

John Caldwell said:

I do not see that we disagree here, Steve. My objection is to the heresy that God abandoned Christ (not that Christ felt left to suffer and die but that God withdrew Himself or the Spirit). I agree with what you say here. God never for a moment abandoned Christ when He stayed His hand of deliverance from physical suffering and death.

Click to expand...

We do disagree, and don't call me a heretic. God did forsake Him during the time described above; that is why He felt forsaken and that is why He said so.
You cannot change the plain words of the Bible to suit your mistaken theology.

marks said:

So what exactly transpired during those hours of darkness that led to Jesus saying "It is finished", and then to release His Spirit?

I can't think of where we're told this, any thoughts?

Click to expand...

Desolation of the soul.
This in my opinion is the greatest of Jesus' sufferings, and I cant even begin to think about the suffering of the Father in this moment without being overwhelmed.

Our Father did not forsake Jesus, ever. But Jesus could not feel His presence and the pain of that separation is not fathomable.

Just my thoughts on the three hours of darkness...

Peace!

Addressing the OP only,
"The Office of the Holy Spirit Revealed"
The question is asked, did God forsake the son on the cross, or seperate from the son. answer, NO. as a matter of fact, when Jesus said that it is finished, yes, on Sin in the world, but the glory and, the wonderful work of God just began. and that work, after preaching to the spirits in prison, then the day of Pentecost the Holy Ghost shed forth.

"of God forsaking the son", this is bared out in Isaiah chapter 59, read this chapter good. the word forsaking, (forsook), means leave, here the present of the Father. in that body, came out of the son, because the sins of the whole world will be laid on him. This word forsook is interesting. Forsook , or forsaking is the act of, or the allowing of one to be sacrifice. Note, to clearly see this, another word, or some synonyms words for forsook is, renounced, relinquished, “sacrificed”. Sacrificed is the word we are looking for. For the Lord God did provide for himself a sacrifice, (a lamb). Genesis 22:8 "And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together”. And who is this Lamb?, God himself, shared in flesh. John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world". John 1:35 "Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; 36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!"

this is bared out in Hebrews 9:26. "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself”. God the Spirit cannot dwell in an unclean place, and the scripture is clear, God will never forsake you, nor leave you, read Hebrews 13:15. and reading the whole chapter of Isa 59, (the entire book is worth reading), Jesus the lamb of God, (this body), was made/design to suffer, even the death of the cross, hence the “sacrifice”. Philippians 2:5 " Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross". And upon that death, it released, or relinquished, (that's what forsook means also), the full power and attributes of God in human form. Glory to Jesus, (remember with blood he was G2758 κενόω kenoo, Limited). but now, No more blood to hinder the Power of God, (in that natural body, hence the change/resurrection). now the same eternal Spirit, that is, and was, is now to come, the Holy Spirit, is Glorified in that form, that figure, that fashion as a man. now Jesus/God/Spirit is fully diverse in heaven as well as on earth. 1 Corinthians 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit". 1Cor 12:5 "And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord". 1Cor 12:6 "And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all".

in his final administration, this process of forsooking was to give us the same power he had, WITHOUT MEASURE, (which answeres the “Greater than I question, because he goes to his Spirit in which he was glorified in John 17). that's why we have the ministering Gifts or as some say the five fold ministries, all because of his, "forsaking" on on the cross in order to release all the power of God in human fashion, and give these gifts/powers in men in human fashion/flesh. supportive scripture, Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." and he is now dwelling in us. as the apostle Peter said, Acts 2:32 "This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear". this is all credit to the "forsaking" on on the cross, we now have what he have, "POWER". as he said,
Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
VERSE 8, Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
if he was never "forsaken" we would not have his POWER today. which takes us to the last dispensation of GRACE. the preaching of the Gospel. the ongoing work of the ministry, world redemption.

for this "forsaking of the Son", on the cross, the "sacrifice”, without it, we wouldn't be able to preach the Gospel, nor help in restoring the temple of God. for, 1Pet 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

so the forsaking here is not an abandonment, nor a leaving, but the beginning of a recovery or restoration plan by God, starting with the spirits in prison. this rescue, or might as well say it, this plan of salvation started ...... yes, right there on the cross with the relinquishing of the FULL POWER of God in human form, to be recieved by men from God. the relinquishing or the "forsaking" was voluntarily, it was God's plan all along.

PICJAG.

John Caldwell said:

I think it is twofold. Jesus lay down His life but at the same time Acts tells pointedly that he was killed at the hands of godless men. I do not know if we have to deny one to affirm the other.

Click to expand...

I think one refers to what men intended and did, and would have completed had it been within their power, the other to what actually happened.

John Caldwell said:

We are told what happens. Christ suffers, is mocked, shows grace to a thief, speaks with John and Mary, and is obedient even unto death.

And you are right that there are many things that we do not know because it is not in Scripture. Some assume Jesus experienced Hell (literally, what we would have experienced at judgment, for about 3 hours). Some believe God separated from Him.

The question becomes how much doctrine can we build on these things that are not stated.

Click to expand...

Never a good idea to build arguments from silence. And neither should we assume that the silence of God at a certain point shows there is nothing there.

So then your thinking is that Jesus experienced what we know about, and not more?

Much love!

John Caldwell said:

You misunderstood, I think. I am not calling you a heretic. I am agreeing with you that Christ felt that he was left to suffer and die. He was forsaken to suffer and die. God did not spare His Son.

I am saying it is heresy to believe God abandoned Christ (as in withdrew or separated from Him). That is not Christian doctrine but a denial not only of Scripture but salvation itself.

Click to expand...

Well you are calling me (and a host of evangelical Christians down the ages) a heretic because that is what I believe. You asked me what it means that Christ was forsaken; I replied that it means that He felt Himself forsaken, because He was.
Once again, you cannot make the Scriptures mean the opposite of what they very clearly say.

We disagree on many issues, Steve. But at the same time I owe you a debt for your teaching. We learn from people, both directly and in the "inverse". What I mean by this is that sometimes we learn more from evaluating flawed arguments (in what we evaluate and find delinquent) and positions than we do from people who present acceptable teaching. I would not hold many of my positions now if we had not engaged in dialogue a few years ago. That is probably one of the main benefits of these types of forums. It is not about how we defend our own positions but how our arguments can help other people in refining, strengthening, or changing their understanding.

Click to expand...

Well, our discussions have certainly made me inspect my own views and revisit the relevant Scriptures. The result has been a great firming-up of my faith and confidence. Because Christ was forsaken by the Father for those hours on the cross, I can be sure that I never will be.

This subject needs a longer post than I am able to give at the present time. These short posts have a tendency to become acrimonious. Whether I shall have more time over Christmas is uncertain.

I therefore recommend A.W. Pink's Seven sayings of the Saviour from the Cross. A. W. PINK COLLECTION THE SEVEN SAYINGS OF THE SAVIOR ON THE CROSS
To find where he begins his treatment of Mark 16:34 is not too easy on this site, but scroll down to about half way, and look for THE CRY OF ANGUISH in capitals. That is the start of his article. It's quite long but will repay careful reading.

John Caldwell said:

I think it is both. Jesus lay down his life via death at the hands of wicked men.

Click to expand...

It is three-fold: "This command I have received from My Father" (John 10:17-18).

John Caldwell said:

Sorry. I did not realize that was the extent to which you took the theory. I did not mean to call you personally a heretic. But the belief that God separated from Jesus is heresy.

I think we have to appeal to Scripture and not men like A.W. Pink when these types of errors creep in. The reason we know that God will never abandon us is because He never abandoned Christ. The faithfulness of God is the topic of Psalm 22, and all through Scripture it is demonstrated in God's own character. We know He will be faithful to us because He has demonstrated this faithfulness in Christ. To hold God separated from Christ while on the Cross is a denial not only of the gospel, of salvation, of certain passages, but it is a denial of Scripture as a whole because it misses completely the righteousness of God.

Does that make you a heretic? No. John Gill taught that Jesus and the Archangel Michael are the same. I think that is heresy. But John Gill was within orthodox Christianity. Like Gill, you may be within the faith despite (not because of) the heresy to which you cling.

Click to expand...

Hi John,
Good post.
"The faithfulness of God is the topic of Psalm 22, and all through Scripture it is demonstrated in God's own character."
"We know He will be faithful to us because He has demonstrated this faithfulness in Christ." <--- And, all I can say is, wow and thank you Lord! His faithfulness is exciting, just to rest and, wonder how He will once again, do the "impossible" I refuse to worry or wonder how or what I can do as it's out of our control anyhow)...
How glad we should all be that His character NEVER changes, we should totally desire to trust in Him and His promises because He is fully faithful.

Jesus was 100% human and 100% God (even though He lowered Himself...)
Can we see that when Jesus said on the cross, "Father, why has thou forsaken me", it was His humanity, just like sweating, as drops of blood in the garden when He asked The Father to take the cup from Him if there be any other way...He dealt with much fear within His human form.
So, God NEVER separated Himself from Christ, (if you've seen Jesus, you have seen the Father, they are one and the same). God separated Himself from human sin we have all nailed His body to the cross, sin put Jesus on the cross but, His Father NEVER forsook Him. Seems clear to me, anyhow

John Caldwell said:

I do not know if we have to deny one to affirm the other.

Click to expand...

I don't propose that we deny anything. But we do need to understand what we are reading, so we will have the right idea about God.

I don't believe that both they could and they couldn't kill Jesus.

I see this as one of those times where we have to decided what's what.

Like where it says, the moon becomes blood. We don't believe the rocky orb of the moon is turned into liquid blood, do we? Rather that it's phenomenal language, and describes the experience of the participants. It became in the appearance of blood.

I think that wicked men did everything they would do to kill, and that this is the same sort of phenomenal language.

The alternative is to either doublethink, where we hold two contradictory views, which is only confusion, or to treat Jesus' words as delusion, and to think that His life actually could be taken away from Him.

Your thoughts?

Much love!














Much love!