Is it possible to lose salvation?

[Big Boy Johnson]

But Hebrews 3:12 doesn't say anything about falling away from the faith. This is another of your additions to the text of Scripture. You're assuming that "fall away from the living God" means "fall away from the faith" but, as I explained above, this isn't the case.

Let's not be cherry picking now, 1 Timothy says some in the faith will fall away from the faith

1 Timothy 4:1,2
Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron

("depart from the faith" is not referring to sinners in the world who never came to faith in the first place)

Here's a few more that speak of LOST salvation

2 Timothy 4:3,4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine (teaching); but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

They turn away from the truth

2 Peter 2:1-3
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying (contradicting, Not agreeing with) the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness (idolatry) shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not.

They will quit following the Lord and will follow the pernicious ways of the false teachers.

Jude 1:17-21
Remember the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
These are those who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
But you, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

These people separate themselves from the Lord!
("those who separate themselves" is not referring to sinners in the world who were never joined unto the Lord in the first place)

Acts 20:27-30
For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

Those following the false doctrines of eternal security have been deceived and are deceiving others in agreement with satan to get people to believe one can live in sin and still be saved which is false doctrine and is satanic.

What does "falling away" mean, then, in this context? Lost salvation? No. It means the loss, not of one's relationship to God

That's what lost salvation IS, it's having departed from the Lord and means no longer in right standing with Him.

Those that take what you are saying seriously believe they can go ahead and live in sin and still go to Heaven which is false doctrine as that is satan's message he gave to Adam and Eve in the garden is that you can disobey the Lord and not die spiritually.

Romans 8:13,14
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die = spiritual death, separated from God.

The only way back from this is to act on Proverbs 28:13 and 1 John 1:9 with sincerity and make no plans for the flesh to go back to sin

Paul did NOT say we must be blameless and holy when we stand before God at the Final Judgment.

There we go folks! The claim that one can be filthy with sin and still be accepted by the Lord! This is walking in darkness.

Romans 8:13,14
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(speaking of the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, not the law of Moses)

Those that turn away from the Lord and go back to walking after the flesh (living in sin) are back under condemnation

The eternal security crowd claims people can live in sin and still be saved because they are speaking in behalf of the devil who is trying to trick people into sowing to the flesh so they reap corruption:

Here's another one that shows eternal security is not biblical:

Galatians 6:7-8 (see Gen 8:22)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

God gave man free will... if man chooses to turn and walk away from the Lord, God will let them do so.

Romans 1:28
they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do what ought not to be done

The gifts and callings of God are without repentance which means God cannot violate our free will and save us anyway IF we choose to go back to our sin which is living in darkness. In God there is NO darkness. (1 John 1:5)

This is a major biblical truth the OSAS crowd always explains away or denies is simply this... God is NOT mocked, what we sow is what we reap - if we sow to the flesh we shall of the flesh reap corruption. (Gal 6:7,8)

In Gal 6:8, the word corruption is...

G5356
fthora from G5351; decay, i.e. ruin -- corruption, destroy, perish.

G5351
strengthened from phthio (to pine or waste); properly, to shrivel or wither, i.e. to spoil or to ruin, by moral influences, to deprave): -- corrupt (self), defile, destroy.

If one claims we DO reap corruption when we sin, then they are admitting they do not believe OSAS / Eternal security doctrine (and sadly many of their friends will forsake them!).... and if one claims we DO NOT reap what we sow, then according to Gal 6:7, that would be mocking God!

Adam and Eve were given eternal life by the Lord when He created them... but when they sinned against God they became corrupt and died spiritually and became separated from God. So Gal 6:7,8 is quite the quandary, quite the state of uncertainty and perplexity for the adherents of OSAS doctrine.

Those following the false doctrines of eternal security are in BIG trouble and are too deceived to even know it. Very sad state of affairs for these people all because they refuse to accept the whole counsel of God taking God at His Word.

Nope, they will continue claiming some things God says are lies because the devil has taken them captive at his will and now they are being led by demons instead of being led by the True Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ.

 

[mailmandan]

Ah there we go, "rightly" understood. That's protestant for, that what I need it to say. You wanted something from Scripture that says, "saved by works". I gave it to you. Now I want you to show me where Scripture says, we are saved my "faith alone" which is what you are claiming Scripture says. If Scripture says it there isnt a need to "rightly" understand anything because it would sayn"we are saved by "faith alone" but it doesn't say that hence your buffoonery.

As to name calling I'll call you what I like because your idiocy doesn't deserve respect.

You gave me nothing except eisegesis and insults. Let me know when you are ready to seriously consider the truth.

 

[Kokyu]

What lens?
I just post scripture.

The fig tree will be cut down IF it DOES NOT bear fruit.
The branch will be CUT OFF if it does NOT bear fruit.

Let's see:

John 15:1-2
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.


It states that every branch IN JESUS (that means the person is saved) that DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT will be TAKEN AWAY.

Every person that is saved and does not bear fruit will be CUT OFF,,,TAKEN AWAY,,,,

Does this sound like that person remains saved??
Not according to Jesus.

No, you don't "just post Scripture." I've already demonstrated that this isn't so in my last couple of posts to you.

The instance of the withering of the fig tree, described only in Matthew's and Mark's Gospels, was not about losing one's salvation but about the power of faith.

Matthew 21:18-22
18 Now in the morning, when He was returning to the city, He became hungry.
19 Seeing a lone fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it except leaves only; and He *said to it, "No longer shall there ever be any fruit from you." And at once the fig tree withered.
20 Seeing this, the disciples were amazed and asked, "How did the fig tree wither all at once?"
21 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen.
22 "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

Mark 11:20-24
20 As they were passing by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots up.
21 Being reminded, Peter *said to Him, "Rabbi, look, the fig tree which You cursed has withered."
22 And Jesus *answered saying to them, "Have faith in God.
23 "Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him.
24 "Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you.

I don't see, then, why you've added this occasion to your repertoire of proof-texts concerning losing salvation. In neither account is there any fig tree cut down and thus suggesting a connection to John 15:6. There is, though, this parable Jesus told:

Luke 13:6-9
6 And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
7 "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
8 "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
9 and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"

This casts quite a different light upon John 15:1-6, it seems to me. The unfruitful branch had been so for three years before the owner of the vineyard complained about it. Even, then, the owner agrees to the branch being carefully nurtured and nourished for a further year before it is discarded as useless. At the very least, if the owner represents God, we see in the parable that God is not at all quick to cut down useless "branches." He is willing, instead, to give them much time and nurturing in order that they might "bear fruit."

In context, this parable has to do with Israel, not Christians. Some Jews had told Jesus about Pilate killing Galileans and he responded to their news by reminding them of the tower of Siloam falling on, and killing, eighteen men, saying to the Jews that they were no more righteous as men of Jerusalem (i.e. Jews) than the killed men were and would die in their sins if they did not repent. Immediately upon saying this, Jesus offers the above parable. Why?

Well, was Jesus speaking to born-again Christians? No, he's speaking to a crowd mostly of Jews. Was Jesus explaining salvation and how to be born-again and stay born-again? No. Did Jesus say anything about his salvific work on the cross, or the indwelling Holy Spirit? No. Why, then, should anyone think Jesus was teaching about salvation and living as a born-again child of God? He was addressing "his own" (Jn. 1:11) - the Jews - warning them that God would not forever tolerate their spiritual unfruitfulness. Jesus the vine-keeper would dig around and fertilize the unfruitful branches of Israel with his own life and blood, but if this did not cause them to bear "fruit," they would be "cut down."

John 15:2 mistranslates airo - Gk. "lifts, or bears up" - as "takes away." Not only does "takes away" not comport with what Jesus described of the actions of the vinedresser in the parable of the unfruitful fig tree above, but "takes away" doesn't fit with the viticultural practices of the time (See: Pliny the Younger). Commonly, a vine branch that was not bearing fruit was lifted up onto a supporting structure, where it could get more sunlight, avoid the rotting damp of the ground and various pests that would damage it. In addition to this, airo is translated as "lift" or "bear up" in a number of places in the NT.


Greek Word: αἴρω
Transliteration: airō
Phonetic Pronunciation: ah'-ee-roh
Root: a primary root
Part of Speech: v

Vine's Words: Bear, Doubt (be in; make to), Doubtful, Doubting, Hoise up, Hoist up, Lift, Put, Take

Usage Notes:

English Words used in KJV:

take up 32
lift up 4
bear 3

a primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figurative to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); Hebrew [compare <H5375> (nasa')] to expiate sin :- away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

(Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.)

I've run out of time to write more, Perhaps later.

 

[Kokyu]

Let's not be cherry picking now, 1 Timothy says some in the faith will fall away from the faith

I don't think you know what "cherry-picking" refers to, colloquially. It is not "cherry-picking" to offer a rationale, an argument, for one's view. You do this regularly. Are you, therefore, cherry-picking, too?

1 Timothy 4:1,2
Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron

("depart from the faith" is not referring to sinners in the world who never came to faith in the first place)

What did John say about the sort of people Paul described here to Timothy?

1 John 2:18-19
18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

Would antichrists not qualify as those "giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils" and "who speak lies in hypocrisy, their conscience seared with a hot iron?" I think so. John wrote that antichrists are liars and deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 Jn. 2:22). Sounds like a "doctrine of devils" to me, and lying is the stock-and-trade of the hypocrite, so I think Paul and John are describing the same sort of person in their respective letters. But John pointed out that those who had departed did so because they weren't "really of us." Certainly, someone under the influence of seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, telling lies and laboring under a seared conscience, does not describe a person who is saved.

In any case, Paul never wrote to Timothy in the verse you posted above that he was speaking of a believer who had lost their salvation. And if John is correct, the one departing the faith does so because they were not saved in the first place ("not really of us"). It must be entirely assumed that by "depart from the faith" Paul was referring to a person who was once saved but now is not.

2 Timothy 4:3,4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine (teaching); but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

They turn away from the truth

Who turns away from the truth? Does Paul indicate that he is speaking of a saved person who is now not saved? No. You're assuming this is who he's talking about. Like the apostle John, I think these people do as Paul described precisely because they weren't ever saved. And nothing Paul wrote to Timothy above forbids this conclusion.

2 Timothy 4:1-4
1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

In context, who is the "they" of whom Paul wrote in the passage above (vs. 3)? The "living" to whom he refers in verse 1. These are the only people to whom he makes any reference prior to verse 3. He doesn't stipulate Christians, or his readers, in verse 3, only "they" which, again, in context, can only refer to "the living" in verse 1, since there is no one else Paul has mentioned (except for God and Jesus who, for obvious reasons cannot be the "they" in question). On what grounds, then, do you assume Paul was speaking of saved people who are now lost?

As far as I can tell, there is the same sort of assumption being made in every instance from Scripture that you offer - just as in Godsgrace's posts.

 

[nedsk]

You gave me nothing except eisegesis and insults. Let me know when you are ready to seriously consider the truth.

Again the presumption that you are in possession of the truth. The fact is scriptures EXPLICITLY says we are not saved by faith alone yet you want to foist some nonsensical bs.on me that because the word faith stands alone it s sentence that means it's faith alone that saves. That's not only bad logic it's stupid. Its the exact same thing every time with you people. You posit ridiculous ideas and then get off huffy when you're called out on your foolishness. When you can read get back to me. Your pompousness is surpassed only by your buffoonery

 

[nedsk]

You gave me nothing except eisegesis and insults. Let me know when you are ready to seriously consider the truth.

BTW

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac at the altar?" (James 2:21) By the standard you have set since the word "works" stands alone therefore that means only works are needed to be saved. Even I don't believe that as the next line tells us, "Thus you can see that his faith and his works were active together; his faith was brought to completion by works."(James 2:22) "Rightly" understood LMBO that means faith is not sufficient for salvation and neither is works but together they save.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Again the presumption that you are in possession of the truth. The fact is scriptures EXPLICITLY says we are not saved by faith alone yet you want to foist some nonsensical bs.on me that because the word faith stands alone it s sentence that means it's faith alone that saves. That's not only bad logic it's stupid. Its the exact same thing every time with you people. You posit ridiculous ideas and then get off huffy when you're called out on your foolishness. When you can read get back to me. Your pompousness is surpassed only by your buffoonery

actually it says we are saved by grace alone.. but through faith.

not of works lest anyone should boast.

 

[nedsk]

You gave me nothing except eisegesis and insults. Let me know when you are ready to seriously consider the truth.

Dont forget the word works stands alone in James 2: 25. More support for your case that words which appear alone in a sentence means only. Again though even I don't believe that as the next verse tell us,

"For just as a body is dead without a spirit, so faith without works is also dead." James 2:26

 

[nedsk]

actually it says we are saved by grace alone.. but through faith.

not of works lest anyone should boast.

By which people assume faith alone is sufficient. It's not. Scripture says so

Only if they believe that works saves them. No one believes that but it's buffoonery to Believe faith alone is sufficient

 

[Eternally Grateful]

By which people assume faith alone is sufficient. It's not. Scripture says so

again, Its grace alone.. But must be recieved in faith

Only if they believe that works saves them. No one believes that but it's buffoonery to Believe faith alone is sufficient

no one believes it?

Stick around. From your answers. I am not sure you do not. be I will not render judgment until I confirm it

 

[nedsk]

again, Its grace alone.. But must be recieved in faith

no one believes it?

Stick around. From your answers. I am not sure you do not. be I will not render judgment until I confirm it

Which AGAIN leads people to assume faith alone saves. It does not

Maybe someone does.

Faulty premise, faulty outcome. Understand? To say not faith alone is not the same thing as saying works saves. Now you either comprehend that or you don't. The problem is you people get bugged eyed whenever anyone says not faith alone. You seem to conclude they means works saves. That's faulty logic but you all the same faulty logic. But I'll not render a decision until I confirm it. Thus far you have thought. I love these games with you people.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Which AGAIN leads people to assume faith alone saves. It does not

Grace alone through faith

what part of this is so hard for you to understand

Maybe someone does.

Faulty premise, faulty outcome. Understand? To say not faith alone is not the same thing as saying works saves. Now you either comprehend that or you don't. The problem is you people get bugged eyed whenever anyone says not faith alone. You seem to conclude they means works saves. That's faulty logic but you all the same faulty logic. But I'll not render a decision until I confirm it. Thus far you have thought. I love these games with you people.

lol. If you think works are involved. well you are in a danger zone.. Become like the tax collector not the pharisee

 

[nedsk]

Grace alone through faith

what part of this is so hard for you to understand

lol. If you think works are involved. well you are in a danger zone.. Become like the tax collector not the pharisee

Grace is a function of Gods mercy and faith is our belief that grace is salvific. Faith however is completed by works just as scripture says.

The same part that you can't understand that works complete faith. Once again if faith was sufficient it wouldn't need completion. That's the exact opposite of what sufficient means. You want to insist one thing is true while ignoring other things. If you think I'm in the danger zone thats a sure indication I'm on the right track. I have no regard for people who refuse to accept what is clearly written. You can keep going though. This is fun

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I don't think you know what "cherry-picking" refers to

It's what the eternal security crowd do, they ignore God's warnings that show eternal security is not correct biblical doctrine.

What did John say about the sort of people Paul described here to Timothy?

I see you have not left your cherry picking ways.

1 Timothy 4:1,2
Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron

This passage clearly states that some who have been born again in the faith, turn away from the faith

So, some folks never let what God says in His Word get in the way of what they believe because their precious false doctrine means more to them that the Lord.

Does Paul indicate that he is speaking of a saved person who is now not saved? No. You're assuming this is who he's talking about. Like the apostle John, I think these people do as Paul described precisely because they weren't ever saved.

Thank you for sharing that grand nugget of false doctrine with the class!

What you are actually saying is that you think some things the Lord says are lies

This is an ear mark of those who have darkened understanding due following false doctrine.

The eternal security crowd MUST twist scripture to defend their false doctrine as they have to always figure out some way of making their false doctrine sound biblical.

As far as I can tell, there is the same sort of assumption being made in every instance from Scripture that you offer

You should get hooked up with the True Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ so you aren't relaying on "as far as I can tell" an d instead learn to see things from the Lord's point of view.