Spiritual Authority

I dont put to much stock into any preachers, there not the god that i submit to and as far as im concerned i have to spiritual authority in muy own life to do as i choose. I know this might offend some but i honestly dont want some begger in my life that hides begind the walls of a church and never hardly cracks open a bible.

If we were to look at some actual scriptures............ you will find that your suppose to be following someone.......Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. There are also scriptures that tell us who not to follow.Someone who through faith and patience inherit the promises.Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. Those strong in faith, strong in love............Avoid those that uses phrases that "God is mysterious in all his ways, and you never know what God is going to do." those folks don't even know God, and have very little faith.I would also avoid anyone that pulls for MONEY!!!! This could be any religion from Catholic to Word of Faith. This would tell you God is not their source, but they are depending on people. Mind you, it's OK to discuss Scriptures about tithing and giving and getting your seed multiplied. It's OK to ask for a project to be sown into if God is directing you to. The give now and God will get you out of debt with wild claims is not good. Follow someone....... there are plenty of scriptures about it and it should not be ignored.Jesus Is Lord.

Brother Mike;71126]If we were to look at some actual scriptures............ you will find that your suppose to be following someone....... [B]Heb 6:12[/B] That ye be not slothful said:

but followers of them[/B] who through faith and patience inherit the promises. There are also scriptures that tell us who not to follow. Someone who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. Those strong in faith, strong in love............ Avoid those that uses phrases that "God is mysterious in all his ways, and you never know what God is going to do." those folks don't even know God, and have very little faith. I would also avoid anyone that pulls for MONEY!!!! This could be any religion from Catholic to Word of Faith. This would tell you God is not their source, but they are depending on people. Mind you, it's OK to discuss Scriptures about tithing and giving and getting your seed multiplied. It's OK to ask for a project to be sown into if God is directing you to. The give now and God will get you out of debt with wild claims is not good. Follow someone....... there are plenty of scriptures about it and it should not be ignored. Jesus Is Lord.

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As a young man in training I once attended an international pentecostal leadership and church growth seminar. During the Q&A time a pastor asked the keynote speaker who had been a national superintendent of a certain denomination: "What advice can you give us about choosing our associates and leadership team?" The reply was: "Don't choose people with strengths that weaken your position". I'm not sure how many church leaders consciously adopt this policy but I have experienced some very unpleasant manifestations of insecurity from persons in positions of authority and have discerned that these persons were prone to feeling threatened by people who didn't agree with everything they said and did. The sort of controlling and abusive shepherding that passes for leadership under some ministries falls into 4 categories:[list type=decimal][*]D = Domination[*]I = Intimidation[*]M = Manipulation[*]S = Seduction[/LIST]Under these ministries the light of the Holy Spirit DIMS.

Just to put the question in perspective, no one has authority over anyone if you believe the scriptures. When God created heaven and earth, he gave man authority over the earth, animals, fish crawling things etc. but he never gave man authority over each other.I don't see any scripture where that has been rescinded.In addition the position of pastor is not scriptural. Nowhere will you find a pastor in the NT church in control of the churches. It was always Elders raised in the local congregation with the Apostles (17 times). In actual fact the term "pastor" is not in scripture. In Ephesians 4 the Greek word is "poimen" which means shepherd, not pastor. Every other time the word "poimen" is used it is always translated shepherd.You will note that the people that were singled out for special mention regarding teaching and preaching were not pastors, it was the Elders. The greek word here is "didaskalos" which means the gift of teaching and in the context of the NT church, they did not stand at the front and preach to the congregation. Teaching was done in the context of small groups in the home (Acts2) and it was a dialogue between people in a conversational setting. The educational experts teach us that sitting listening is one of the worst forms of teaching as you only retain 20% of what you hear.I am sure God knows this so I cannot imagine he would authorise a failed learning system.I know that those who are in unscriptual leadership roles say that we are told to submit to those in authority over us (Heb 13:17) but the greek words here is not "power over" it is to 'convince by argument" or by analogy "to pacify or conciliate". The power over idea is stated in passages like Luke 9:1 where it talks about being given power over all the devils and to cure diseases. This talks about mastery and delegated influence.

Heb 13:17 ESV Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you."if no one is to have authority over us, what does this verse then mean? What else could "obey" and "submit" mean?of course no one should ever abuse this authority, but just because some people have and will abuse their authority, it does not mean that God's word on the matter is now untrue.... we do in fact have leaders appointed by God over us, but we must always be noble Bereans and subject everyhting that they say to the Scriptures... if it does not match, or it contradicts the Scriptures, then of course we must not follow them...whatever form of church government one subscribes to, it is clear that the bible teaches that there are leaders in the church whom God has gifted in various ways such that they will help lead us towards spiritual maturity... Eph 4:11-14 ESV And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, (12) to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, (13) until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, (14) so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes."blessings,ken

The problem with men in the Church today is they blindly follow men because they either belong to a certain belief system/ denomination for that is all they know. God's Word is divine; but with out a divine anointing all you get is religion.We are all supposed to follow Christ; true?But where is Christ? Yes Christ is out there in the religious system for God does anoint religious men of all faiths but there is more; God even anoints ministries in Babylon for: Jeremiah 51:7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.For God uses Babylon.The word Christ means anointed; so if you are against God’s anointing you are anti Christ. What does the Bible say how God choices his anointed? David was anointed by God long before he was king; David was a man who wrote thousands of psalms, that are used to inspire so many awesome sermons as well as songs that sung thousands of churches all though out the world through many generations since they were written. The Ark of God was at David’s home, in a tent on His porch; (the Tabernacle of David/Acts 15:16) this was not the normal tradition. What was normal was the High Priest once a year entered the Holy of Holies and no man or priest or King had such immanent excess to the presence of God as David. David was king; He was God’s anointed King; not like Saul who was also anointed by God; but chosen by the people; like many ministries in the church (little c) realm today. David was one of those special people God called, anointed and was anointed as child. Today’s ministry is chosen by men. I have found men of God that I know anointed by the deepness of their understanding not because they have been voted in or out by some church committee. David walked for many years and knew He had an anointing; but he kept it to himself and understood that Saul was God’s anointed; that is until the appointed time. I think we are better off to wait and seek for God to anoints, who God’s chosen vessel then to anoint our own. Also let us not forget Solomon who was also anointed of God; but because of his marring and turning his heart to false idols he became corrupt. Reminds me of all the different religions out there that man has married into; there is only one way; Christ with in.

if no one is to have authority over us, what does this verse then mean? What else could "obey" and "submit" mean?

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If you read my post which is the one before yours, you will see what it means as I have given you an explanation from the greek.

whatever form of church government one subscribes to, it is clear that the bible teaches that there are leaders in the church whom God has gifted in various ways such that they will help lead us towards spiritual maturity...

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The Ephsians passage has nothing to do with leadership. It relates to ministry which is given by annointing. Without the annointing all the appointing will achieve nothing. Those annointed with these five ministries are to mature the saints, not exercise authority over them. I have the ministry of teaching and when I am using that gift people listen. When I am not, I am treated no differently to anyone else, which is as it should be. The only authority I have is to tell people the truth. What they do with it is their responsibility. The people that have the oversight of the congregation are the Elders (plural) who are senior men selected from within the fellowship. Even that is a servant ministry, not an authority over. Without a servant attitude, you cannot oversee effectively because it becomes all about you, not exalting Jesus.

There is only one that should have authority over you, and that is Jesus Christ. If you are foolish enough to submit to anyone else then you may as well give them a gun and play russian roulette, because that is what you are doing with your salvation.In His Love

Yes, yes and yes to the last few comments. Over here the buzz word is "covering". "You need a covering brother to stop you going astray". (Interpretation-you need someone to control you and tell you what to do).Since I ditched the church and the "pastor" as my covering and chose to rely entirely on Jesus alone, my walk with the Lord has come alive. God is alive, not just someone we talk about and I have got rid of all Satan's accusations that are intended to make me feel like a miserable worm not worthy of God's love and attention.

Q) What was the first religious act in the Bible?A) The fig leaf. It was the first time some one covered themselves with something other then the glory of God.

hey there soulja boy... I did read your post and your explanation of Heb 13:17, I just did not agree with it... the passage says to submit... and submit is:G5226ὑπείκωhupeíkō; fut. hupeíxō, from hupó (G5259), and eíkō (G1503), to yield, submit. To submit, surrender, yield, cease to fight. In the NT with the dat. (Heb_13:17, meaning to yield, submit to).Ant.: kurieúō (G2961), to rule over; epitássō (G2004), to order, charge, rule over; katalambánō (G2638), to seize, possess; authentéō (G831), to dominate."G5226ὑπείκωhupeikōThayer Definition:1) to resist no longer, but to give way, yield (of combatants)2) metaphorically to yield to authority and admonition, to submit [FONT=&quot]ὑ[/FONT]πείκω literally yield, retire from, give way; figuratively submit to someone’s authority, resist no longer, do as someone says (HE 13.17) (Friberg, T., Friberg, B., & Miller, N. F. (2000). Vol. 4: Analytical lexicon of the Greek New Testament. Baker's Greek New Testament library (389). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.) "If former leaders were to be remembered and their teachings retained (vv. 7-8), present ones were to be obeyed. Their responsibility before God was to be recognized and their shepherding tasks should not be complicated by disobedience. (So that their work will be a joy possibly should be, “so their accounting [to God for you] may be with joy.”)The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty. "13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.NIV Members in the church have the responsibility to obey their leaders and submit to their authority. While 13:7 referred to past leaders who had died and were to be remembered for their great examples, this verse refers to the present leaders in the various congregations. Wise and God-honoring leaders watch over the church and have the best in mind for their followers. They do not lead for their own sake but because God has called them to a position of helping people mature in Christ. These leaders are concerned for the deepest needs of those in their fellowship. These leaders also take on great responsibility. They must give an account to God. Yet what pressures our leaders feel to please their congregations more than God! They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. God will hold them accountable to care for those who are in their charge (see also 1 Peter 5:1-5).Life Application Bible Commentary - Life Application Bible Commentary – Hebrews. "Instead of reverting to Jewish ways of thinking or being influenced by strange teachings from other sources, the readers are urged to obey their current leaders and submit to their authority (v 17). They are to do this recognizing the special responsibility of Christian leaders and the need to encourage them in their God-given role. New Bible Commentary: 21st century edition. "In Hebrews 13:7, the author recalled to his reader's minds the influence for good left by mentors who were now gone. In verse Hebrews 13:17, he urges respect for and compliance with the godly leaders they now have. The IVP New Testament Commentary Series - The IVP New Testament Commentary Series – Hebrews. so I am not sure where you got your information in your "explanation from the Greek" but it does not appear to be correct...you say

The Ephsians passage has nothing to do with leadership.

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Really!?!?! The passage says Eph 4:11 NASB And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,"You are just mistaken to say that the terms "apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers" does not have anything to do with leadership... these positions, God-given and ordained, have everything to do with leadership... of course these positions rely on the "anointing", but the 'anointing" is what qualifies them to be leaders!! lol.... for to "mature the saints" is to steer them from false teaching, and teach them true teaching... and IF they persist in false teaching, these leaders had to engage in church discipline in order to protect the rest of the flock... so if you tell people the truth, say about something like the doctrine of the Trinity, and a certain person begins to go to all the other members of the congregation denying that the Trinity is true, creating factions and dissensions in the church, disrupting the peace, then the leadership has a responsibility to confront that member and ask them to either change their views, keep their views to them self since it is causing dissension among the members of the congregation, or leave the church... that is the responsibility of a leader... so to have a servant attitude, most and best exemplified in Jesus, is not to say that therefore leadership attributes are not to be exercised... again the model is Jesus, who though a servant was also our leader... now no human leader can be perfect as He was perfect... but just because someone has the attitude and a heart of a servant, it does not follow that they ought not be submitted to in the sense of Heb. 13;17... indeed a leader who wants to protect his flock (1 Cor. 13 love always protects) would be failing in his role as a servant if he failed to serve the best interests of the congregation by allowing false teaching, disruptive behavior, etc to flourish in his church...of course people do and have abused this passage by insisting on a cultic submission... but the erroneous application of a passage does not negate the true application of the passage... we are to submit to our leaders, but they submit to the authority of Scripture and ultimately to God... if these leaders ever fail to be in line with the teachings of Scripture or ever get abusive in their wielding of a God-given place of leadership such that they fail to continue to represent the characteristics of a true Christian, they are to be summarily rejected as leaders.... but leaders who do follow the Scriptures are to be obeyed, in accordance with Heb. 13:17...blessings,ken

epistemaniac I have no idea what you were talking about above. (Most of your post) It was like Greek to me (knowing you, it probably was) , but I have to agree full heartedly with this.

but leaders who do follow the Scriptures are to be obeyed, in accordance with Heb. 13:17...

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I have seen people go to the same church for years, and all of a sudden leave because the Pastor could not be at one of their Grand Daughters events. They don't esteem those that God has put over them. People get offended and leave, People leave leadership because they got promoted to a better Job, being led by money. We need to learn to submit!!! If you find it easy to submit, then you have no idea what the word means.Jesus Is Lord.

[quote name='Brother Mike;72454]epistemaniac I have no idea what you were talking about above. (Most of your post) It was like Greek to me (knowing you' date=' it probably was) , but I have to agree full heartedly with this. I have seen people go to the same church for years, and all of a sudden leave because the Pastor could not be at one of their Grand Daughters events. They don't esteem those that God has put over them. People get offended and leave, People leave leadership because they got promoted to a better Job, being led by money. We need to learn to submit!!! If you find it easy to submit, then you have no idea what the word means.Jesus Is Lord.[/QUOTE']well said Mike... I especially like what you said about submitting not being easy or natural to us... we are, by nature, prideful, and submitting does not come easy for us... we are rebels, rebelling against God, and rebelling against the people God has placed over us in authority... blessings,ken

The people you are as speaking of are very shallow or superficial if this is the case which is very true in many cases; but then you get the other extreme. What are they submitting to? Like in Isaiah many take hold of a religion for the wrong reason; refuse to grow spiritually and are not looking for a relationship with God but fellowship with a social group no matter what. Isaiah 41And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man,saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only letus be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.What does the word Church mean? It is a Greek Word “ecclesia” which simply means the called out. There is a true Church and a false Church; Baby lon is the false church; while the true Church is not a building, a system, denomination but Christ with in us, the hope of Glory. There are far too many so called ministries who act as if they are the voice of God but all they are is the voice of corporate headquarters. Jeremiah 51:7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.God uses Baby lon as shown by the verse above; but there is so much more. Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. (KJV)[quote name='Brother Mike;72454]epistemaniac I have no idea what you were talking about above. (Most of your post) It was like Greek to me (knowing you' date=' it probably was) , but I have to agree full heartedly with this. I have seen people go to the same church for years, and all of a sudden leave because the Pastor could not be at one of their Grand Daughters events. They don't esteem those that God has put over them. People get offended and leave, People leave leadership because they got promoted to a better Job, being led by money. We need to learn to submit!!! If you find it easy to submit, then you have no idea what the word means.Jesus Is Lord.[/QUOTE']

Hebrews 13:17. Obey-a primary verb to convince (by argument true or false); by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively to assert (to evidence or authority) to reply ( by inward certainty; agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be content, make friend, obey, persude, trust, yield.

Really!?!?! The passage says Eph 4:11 NASB And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers," You are just mistaken to say that the terms "apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers" does not have anything to do with leadership... these positions, God-given and ordained, have everything to do with leadership...

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As a teacher, I am annointed to teach. I don't need to be in leadership to do that. The scripture says that some Elders teach but not all so some leaders do teach but not all. An evangelist is annointed to evangelise, not to lead. He has authority when he is evangelising, but that doesn't make him a leader of the church.An apostle is anointed to go forth and teach the gospel and establish churches and guide them until Edlers are appointed from within the fellowship to oversee the church. They then leave and continue their church planting. Paul told Timothy to appoint Elders in all the churches. There is no mention of teachers, pastors, evangelists being appointed to lead the church. Unless I am appointed an Elder, I have no authority to overide the local eldership or oversee the local fellowship just because I have an annointing for a specific ministry. It was obvious that Paul recognised the authority of the Elders and did not submit them to his authority. The word for leadership in the NT is "presbuteros" and that word is not used in the Ephesians passage.One of the greatest examples of a teacher who was not a leader in the last century was Derek Prince. During his life time he was appointed an Elder of a local assembly on a couple of occasions and fulfilled the role of teacher and Elder, but most of his life he was a teacher to the body of Christ and held no leadership position at all. He was in constant demand by local churches to visit and teach. Had he been a leader of a local assembly, he could not have done that.