Christianity Conforms More To Communism Than To Capitalism

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Foreigner

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What happened in the USSR and in China was a dictatorship, quite the opposite to communism. Communism is an economic system that has very little to do with religion. Much like how capitalism has little to do with religion.

-- By its very nature the utopia communism you see will never come to be.
There is no way you can have freedom and the ordered society necessary for its existance.
It really is that simple.
 

Wakka

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-- By its very nature the utopia communism you see will never come to be.
There is no way you can have freedom and the ordered society necessary for its existance.
It really is that simple.

That's debatable. Do you have any scholarly sources to back that up? Wouldn't you say that as Christians it is our duty to try to achieve as close of a "utopia" as possible through due process or 'other means'.

As a white liberal upper middle class suburbanite I initially adopted the altruistic approach, especially after meeting some people who lived outside of my perfect little world free of overt racism or class struggle and who had genuinely been taken advantage by capitalism.

One friend in particular, we'll call him X for the sake of universality, was born into a small, very poor family in L.A. His family has been unable to find stable work for the 20 years they have lived here, and they can barely afford to pay rent. My friend quit high school when he was 16 because he got a full time job as a factory worker. Unfortunately his sister contracted brain cancer, so a goodly sum of his minimum wage went towards her medical treatment (she survived, if you were wondering). Three years later he was laid off and the factory was shut down. Right now he works odd jobs just to pay his rent and afford food. I don't remember why, but he is ineligible for welfare.

Now, X is truly one of the brightest people I know. But even if he weren't, why should he suffer for the barest necessities of life simply because he lacks the gift of intelligence or the education which circumstance denied him? What opportunity does he , or any other member of this 'underclass', to succeed in the current system of society? There are tens of millions of members of this horribly oppressed underclass in America today who have no realistic chance of escaping it.
Men like Andrew Carnegie are an exception, but certainly not the rule.

There are also far more logic and philosophy based arguments in favor of Marxist socialism, such as the labor theory of value but I do not believe I am articulate enough as of yet to fully explain my beliefs regarding the economic (the most important) justification for my adoption of Marxist socialism.

I simply cannot support a system that allows people to be walked on and abused simply because they are unfortunate or poor. The United States has a unprecedented crime rate and millions of youths are joining street gangs. Places such as Los Angeles and Detroit have been deemed unsafe. Why is that? Because the poor feel oppressed and therefore resort to crime to obtain necessities, pay outstanding loans, buy drugs to ease depression.
 

Foreigner

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That's debatable. Do you have any scholarly sources to back that up? Wouldn't you say that as Christians it is our duty to try to achieve as close of a "utopia" as possible through due process or 'other means'.


-- Have you even studied what Communism is according to those who originally envisioned it?
The state decides what you will do.
The state decides what you will study.
The state decides where you will live.
The state will regulate your salary.
The state will decide when/if you get medical treatment, and how much.
The state will decide if you must serve in the military.
The state will decide what goods and services are available to you.
And remember, the state is making these decisions "for the greater good of all."
Your personal opinion can be seen as divisive if you do not want what the state wants.
And if you do not agree with the state? Well, we have seen that played out before, haven't we?
And "other means" is a buzz phrase used by those who want their way by any means necessary.

The point remains: Communism is good in theory, but horrendous in actual application.

My friend, I have not only spent years studying this topic, but actually witnessed the implementations.
I lived in West Berlin during the Cold War and saw first hand what happened to those who wished to leave their "workers paradise."

You called what happened in the USSR and in China "dictatorships."
That is exactly what Communism requires to function.
If people refuse to do what the state says, the system crumbles.
Free will is the reason your utopia will not function.

The reason Christianity cannot be allowed because Christians will not obey an unjust system and will speak out.
They will not allow Communism to be their God...but that is exactly what Communism requires to function.

You are another one of those "it just hasn't been implemented correctly" proponents.
For your own good I hope you never have to find out just how misguided that thinking is.

 

01CobraVortech

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I simply cannot support a system that allows people to be walked on and abused simply because they are unfortunate or poor. The United States has a unprecedented crime rate and millions of youths are joining street gangs. Places such as Los Angeles and Detroit have been deemed unsafe. Why is that? Because the poor feel oppressed and therefore resort to crime to obtain necessities, pay outstanding loans, buy drugs to ease depression.

Wow talk about dismissing personal accountability for choices people make when it comes to choosing evil over good. There is no human form of government on earth that is perfect. But suggesting that our unprecedented crime rates are driven simply by oppression or unfortunate circumstances is utterly ridiculous on so many levels. But I do thank you for making this post because now I understand that its really oppression that's also driving rape, premeditated murder and all other forms of violent crime. :rolleyes: Sorry, but your over simplification of the causes of the unprecedented crime rates is only reality in a sociology class. In reality, there is incredible evil and cold hearts behind much of the premeditated crime we are seeing.
 

Wakka

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-- Have you even studied what Communism is according to those who originally envisioned it?
The state decides what you will do.
Doesn't any government set down rules and laws for their people to follow?

The state decides what you will study.
Aren't we already doing this to an extent in any sort of educational institution, government or private?

The state decides where you will live.

There are still masses of people that live originally where they lived. But the state can buy your land from you.

The state will regulate your salary.
Minimum wage?

The state will decide when/if you get medical treatment, and how much.

Stop soaking up Fox News.

The state will decide if you must serve in the military.

Drafts?

The state will decide what goods and services are available to you.
Don't governments already do that with regulatory boards to keep out bad foods?

And remember, the state is making these decisions "for the greater good of all."
This is total nonsense, any government in the world is demanding to act in the interests of the greater good.

Your personal opinion can be seen as divisive if you do not want what the state wants.
And if you do not agree with the state? Well, we have seen that played out before, haven't we?
And "other means" is a buzz phrase used by those who want their way by any means necessary.

The point remains: Communism is good in theory, but horrendous in actual application.

My friend, I have not only spent years studying this topic, but actually witnessed the implementations.
I lived in West Berlin during the Cold War and saw first hand what happened to those who wished to leave their "workers paradise."
http://bit.ly/1alY6f

You called what happened in the USSR and in China "dictatorships."
That is exactly what Communism requires to function.
If people refuse to do what the state says, the system crumbles.
Free will is the reason your utopia will not function.

The reason Christianity cannot be allowed because Christians will not obey an unjust system and will speak out.
They will not allow Communism to be their God...but that is exactly what Communism requires to function.

You are another one of those "it just hasn't been implemented correctly" proponents.
For your own good I hope you never have to find out just how misguided that thinking is.

What you don't understand is that Marxism is the route to which the workers control the means of production. Not some national entity like Stalin or Mao.

Why should any good christian support capitalism? Why can you allow a system of exploitation take place?

"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a communist." ~Dom Hélder Câmara
 

Martin W.

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Well, what about an absolutist Christian monarchy?

Somewhat off topic but it brings to mind something that happens every Christmas here. We are still symbolically under the British Crown and out of all the various politicians , mayors, and leaders who spout the politically correct "Holiday messages" at Christmas , the Queen of England is about the only one who boldly talks about Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

I have never been a Monarchist but have always admired her for that.

God Save The Queen.
 

Foreigner

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Apr 14, 2010
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The state decides what you will do.
Doesn't any government set down rules and laws for their people to follow?

A: A free government lets the people decide the rules and change them if they wish. And the people have the right to vote out the leadership if they do not like what they are doing. Communism does not.

The state decides what you will study.
Aren't we already doing this to an extent in any sort of educational institution, government or private?

A: Quit being intentionally obtuse. Students enter college or trade school to study what they as individuals want. Not what the state directs them to.

The state decides where you will live.

There are still masses of people that live originally where they lived. But the state can buy your land from you.

A: People in a free country can move from town to town, state to state, or even out of the country. A Communist state doesn't allow that.
Your article about East Germany left out the part of the government in the 'Workers Paradise' either imprisoning or shooting those that tried to leave.


The state will regulate your salary.

Minimum wage?

A: This would only matter if the state FORCED you to take that job...which it would do under Communism.
In a free society you can go to school to learn what you want and negotiate a salary. Minimum wage is never a permanent wage. It is usually a starter salary for unskilled labor. Try again.


The state will decide when/if you get medical treatment, and how much.

Stop soaking up Fox News.

A: That's it? That's your rebuttal? Sorry, not a Fox News groupie. Medical care under every single solitary Communist system was and is atrocious leading to high mortality rates.
If you think that won't be the case in your utopia, you are in for a big surprise.


The state will decide if you must serve in the military.

Drafts?

A: Really? The U.S. has a draft? LOL. Right now people can enlist if they choose to and even choose the branch and specialty they will serve in.
Even in countries like Denmark and Israel where they still have the draft. People are given options to choose how they will serve and have a legal system within the military to ensure they are treated fairly. Under communism...not so much.


The state will decide what goods and services are available to you.

Don't governments already do that with regulatory boards to keep out bad foods?

A: Pay attention. No one is talking simple regulation. In a communist society the government decides what will be produced in all factories. They also decide how many will be made available to specific cities or regions and what the price will be. The...people...have...no...say. Try again.

And remember, the state is making these decisions "for the greater good of all."
This is total nonsense, any government in the world is demanding to act in the interests of the greater good.

A: So naive. The communist government decides what is best for the people. In a free society the people decide. If their government officials don't like what they have done the people vote them out of office and can change the laws. You will see a good example of this in action in the U.S. this November.

http://bit.ly/1alY6f

^^^^ What a comically misleading article.
It shows the young pine for the "old way" but since the Wall came down in 1989 (almost 21 years ago), they either don't remember or never experienced what it was like to actually live in that system. They are like you - they are believing a lie.
And the well-to-do under the system? Ever read "Animal Farm"? Some are more equal than others. Those that prospered under the corrupt system are the ones that miss the system most. Get a clue.



What you don't understand is that Marxism is the route to which the workers control the means of production. Not some national entity like Stalin or Mao.

A: "The workers" control nothing. The workers are told what to produce, where to work, how/if they will be compensated, etc. You bought a bill of goods and I feel sorry for you.


Why should any good christian support capitalism? Why can you allow a system of exploitation take place?

A: Freedom. You support Communism and want to accuse some OTHER system of exploitation? Amazing.
You don't seem to realize that even commenting negatively online about your government or a government official would get you imprisoned under Communism. So naive.


"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a communist." ~Dom Hélder Câmara

"Communism possesses a language which every people can understand - its elements are hunger, envy, and death."~ Heinrich Heine


-- Face it, you have theory and naivete'. I have fact and history. Wake up.
 

HammerStone

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What happened in the USSR and in China was a dictatorship, quite the opposite to communism. Communism is an economic system that has very little to do with religion. Much like how capitalism has little to do with religion.

What happened in the USSR and China are both full examples of Communism. How many mulligans do you require?

These two of the largest nations on the Earth both went through the cycle of Communism. What makes Communism what it is comes in the form of the power that is assembled at the top. Communism is by definition a dictatorship because some form of absolute power must enforce the redistribution required to keep the show running. It always, without exception, ends up with a dictator or dictatorial party at the helm. An example cannot be shown otherwise, period.

I simply cannot support a system that allows people to be walked on and abused simply because they are unfortunate or poor. The United States has a unprecedented crime rate and millions of youths are joining street gangs. Places such as Los Angeles and Detroit have been deemed unsafe. Why is that? Because the poor feel oppressed and therefore resort to crime to obtain necessities, pay outstanding loans, buy drugs to ease depression.

Aside from being an incredibly naive view of crime, the statistics simply don't back you up!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Let's just look at the homicide rates. (Of which curiously we don't have the Chinese rates...)

We simply object to this system because (obviously for us at least) God never sanctioned forced charity nor did he call for a government which controls all. Rendering unto Caesar is one thing, but here we are yet again at the mistake made over and over and still over in history. We (men and women) attempt to setup a system that will do the work of God and try to play God. This system is no different from an all-controlling church hierarchy or a society of priest who make and interpret the laws as they see fit.

Please wake up from that mistake because the day will come when that will be a part of the last mistake ever made.
 

Wakka

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-- Face it, you have theory and naivete'. I have fact and history. Wake up.

An economic ideology back up by science and mathematics isn't simply a theory. It's very possible and a matter of time until a socialist country becomes communist. By the way, marxism isn't dead, there's a large progressive move towards communism and it's becoming readily popular. If you follow the news you'd know this, look at Nepal, Venezuela, India, and parts of Russia still.

What happened in the USSR and China are both full examples of Communism. How many mulligans do you require?

The USSR and China never achieved Communism. No country has ever had a communist system of government. The countries that we call "Communist" are countries where the dominant political party was/is the Communist Party. Communist Parties are generally political parties who have working towards achieving "communism" as part of their party platform.

The difference between working towards communism and "communism" itself is like the difference between building a house and living in a house. The Soviet Union, for example, never claimed to have achieved communism. In theory, what was taking place in the Soviet Union was an attempt to do the work needed to construct a communist society. Just as building a house is hard work, that has to be done in order to have a house to live in, the Stalinist system of the Soviet Union was seen as the hard work that was being done by everyone to build a communist system. It was never seen by any of the Communists as "communism" itself, any more than a construction foreman would think that the act of building a home is the same as lounging on the couch inside a home. In truth, most Communists today recognize that the Soviet Union was mostly just a large, corrupt, top down bureaucracy that didn't represent the ideals of Marxism or Communism.

These two of the largest nations on the Earth both went through the cycle of Communism. What makes Communism what it is comes in the form of the power that is assembled at the top. Communism is by definition a dictatorship because some form of absolute power must enforce the redistribution required to keep the show running. It always, without exception, ends up with a dictator or dictatorial party at the helm. An example cannot be shown otherwise, period.

Contrary to popular misconception, the goal of Communists was ultimately to abolish the State altogether. Basic Communist ideology holds that the purpose of "the State" is to enforce social and economic disparity. According to Marxist thinking the State developed as a tool for a minority of people to oppress other people. Marxists contend that we are all naturally relatively equal, and that significant inequality among people can only exist through the use of State force. Historically the State has always been used as a means to support a wealthy and powerful minority. From the Sumerians and Egyptians to the British Empire and beyond, the traditional role of the State has been to protect the interests of the wealthy and facilitate wealth transfer from the working masses to the wealthy property owners


Aside from being an incredibly naive view of crime, the statistics simply don't back you up!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Let's just look at the homicide rates. (Of which curiously we don't have the Chinese rates...)

You're right, I jumped the gun. But don't brush that off because that is a legitimate reason for a lot of crime. But have a look at China's report on America's human rights violations: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2010-03/12/content_9582821.htm

All of the sources are from American news agencies and organizations.

We simply object to this system because (obviously for us at least) God never sanctioned forced charity nor did he call for a government which controls all. Rendering unto Caesar is one thing, but here we are yet again at the mistake made over and over and still over in history. We (men and women) attempt to setup a system that will do the work of God and try to play God. This system is no different from an all-controlling church hierarchy or a society of priest who make and interpret the laws as they see fit.

Please wake up from that mistake because the day will come when that will be a part of the last mistake ever made.

Do the work of God? We have some of the most immoral cities, we wage wars on a regular basis, our economy depends on interest and credit (money that we don't necessarily own). Capitalism is no less evil than Communism (or Socialism for that matter), it depends on the people running it. And don't say that socialism tends to incorporate evil and greedy rulers because capitalism doesn't have a clean track record either (Nazi Germany, capitalist method of practice). Those Eastern Bloc countries, after the collapse, are now heavily corrupt. Look at Latvia for example (where I'm from). It's the most corrupt of the Baltic states and is literally bankrupt. The country had to implement severe austerity measures (which Greece is coincidentally doing at this moment). To be honest, I don't think that the Euro will last any longer.
 

Foreigner

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An economic ideology back up by science and mathematics isn't simply a theory.

-- Actually, it only works in theory. When it has been tried in the real world it has been a dismal failure...every single time.

It's very possible and a matter of time until a socialist country becomes communist. By the way, marxism isn't dead, there's a large progressive move towards communism and it's becoming readily popular. If you follow the news you'd know this, look at Nepal, Venezuela, India, and parts of Russia still.

-- Something someone has never personally experienced (like communism) but has only heard good things about always finds it 'readily popular. But when they try it and reality sets in, grief and regret quickly follow.

The USSR and China never achieved Communism.

-- True. Because it is not possible. HammerStone gave an excellent explanation as to why.

No country has ever had a communist system of government. The countries that we call "Communist" are countries where the dominant political party was/is the Communist Party.

-- Oh, so close. Actually, you should have said, 'where the ONLY party is the Communist Party.'
You ignore the fact that in countries where the only party allowed was the Communist Party, they still couldn't make it work. When you are the only game in town, you get to make all the rules, and you control every facet of society...but still can't make it work, that should be a really big red flag for you (no pun intended).


The difference between working towards communism and "communism" itself is like the difference between building a house and living in a house.

-- Actually, the difference is telling people they are going to live in THIS house whether they like it or not. And this house has a leaky roof, a rotted floor, broken windows, and an empty fridge.

In truth, most Communists today recognize that the Soviet Union was mostly just a large, corrupt, top down bureaucracy that didn't represent the ideals of Marxism or Communism.

-- Every single country that tried to be Communist tried very hard to 'represent the ideals of Marxism and Communism.' The problem is that those 'ideals' are not realistic.
You are basically saying that the reason Communism failed in the past is because they just didn't know how to run their unicorn farm. Problem is, there is no such thing as a unicorn.
Wise up.



Contrary to popular misconception, the goal of Communists was ultimately to abolish the State altogether.

-- And therein lies your problem. In order for your utopia to work, every single solitary person must be willing to do the job that is best for everyone, accept the compensation that is best for everyone, consume only what is best for everyone, and willingly and repeatedly sacrifice so that everyone can have the same thing. This without any accountability or enforcement or punishment for those who do not wish to live as a drone. (Insert 'Twilight Zone' theme here...)
 

Wakka

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-- Actually, it only works in theory. When it has been tried in the real world it has been a dismal failure...every single time.

No, it works in Cuba, and it worked in the GDR and USSR till the mid-80's. The USSR wasn't socialist when it collapsed, it was deliberately destroyed by Gorbachev's economic reforms.

-- Something someone has never personally experienced (like communism) but has only heard good things about always finds it 'readily popular. But when they try it and reality sets in, grief and regret quickly follow.

The people of Cuba are overwhelmingly supportive of their revolution. When given a chance to state their opinion, the Soviet people voted to preserve the USSR in 1991.

-- Oh, so close. Actually, you should have said, 'where the ONLY party is the Communist Party.'
You ignore the fact that in countries where the only party allowed was the Communist Party, they still couldn't make it work. When you are the only game in town, you get to make all the rules, and you control every facet of society...but still can't make it work, that should be a really big red flag for you (no pun intended).

Again, how did it not work?

-- Actually, the difference is telling people they are going to live in THIS house whether they like it or not. And this house has a leaky roof, a rotted floor, broken windows, and an empty fridge.

None of this applied to the Warsaw Pact countries. Neither does it apply to Cuba.

-- Every single country that tried to be Communist tried very hard to 'represent the ideals of Marxism and Communism.' The problem is that those 'ideals' are not realistic.
You are basically saying that the reason Communism failed in the past is because they just didn't know how to run their unicorn farm. Problem is, there is no such thing as a unicorn.
Wise up.

It worked until Gorbachev betrayed Marxism and Communism. It started to slowly crumble when Khrushchev began to deviate from Marxism and Communism.

-- And therein lies your problem. In order for your utopia to work, every single solitary person must be willing to do the job that is best for everyone, accept the compensation that is best for everyone, consume only what is best for everyone, and willingly and repeatedly sacrifice so that everyone can have the same thing. This without any accountability or enforcement or punishment for those who do not wish to live as a drone. (Insert 'Twilight Zone' theme here...)

Actually no. Manual labor will be mostly abolished in communism.

Communist production takes place in order to satisfy needs. People have a need for disposable time. If you look at the history of socialist states, you'll see that they constantly lowered the amount of hours the people had to work. In the GDR, miners and similarly hard working people had to work only 4 hours a day. Communism will logically extrapolate that trend, and work will become something that people do because they want to, because they feel like it. At least manual labor will stop being a necessity.
 
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01CobraVortech

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It works in Cuba? :lol: Now you've lost all credibility. Plenty of defectors have reported the conditions in Cuba, not to mention many tourists from Canada. The poverty there is disturbing and the human rights violations and persecution for dissenting political beoiefs doesn't even need elaboration. A Commie Christian? I love it. :lol:
 

Wakka

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It works in Cuba? :lol: Now you've lost all credibility. Plenty of defectors have reported the conditions in Cuba, not to mention many tourists from Canada. The poverty there is disturbing and the human rights violations and persecution for dissenting political beoiefs doesn't even need elaboration. A Commie Christian? I love it. :lol:

One of the major issues with Cuba right now is not necessarily the fault of Fidel, but a result of the fall of the Soviet Union. Cuba lost something like 75% of their trade during the 1990s, and the US embargo continued. Don't you think it's evil that the US Foreign policy blocks prosperity to another nation? This blockade is absolutely pointless.

Basic info on what life in Cuba is like: http://library.thinkquest.org/18355/daily_life.html
 

jerryjohnson

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Wakka,

Let’s get something straight.
You said:

I'm saying that it's better to live in a communist state, a true communist state, than in a capitalist one.
....

Then you said in the shoutbox:
Wakka (Today, 01:33 AM) Guys pray for me I have tinnitus.


I answered:
jerryjohnson (Today, 01:47 AM) They have been advertising a new product call Quietus for tinnitus relief on TV a lot lately. http://www.quietrelief.com/


Then I said:
Go over to Cuba W, maybe they can help you with your Tinnitus.


You answered:
That's a horrible joke.

My response:
No joke young man. Capitalism in the USA makes possible a new product call Quietus for tinnitus, a Communist country would not make a product like that.

Would you have been allowed to ask for Prayer publicly in a Communist country? You could in the USA.
 

Wakka

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First of all, Tinnitus is not something to joke about. You don't understand what I'm going through right now without actually having experienced tinnitus. It's been easily the worst week of my life and I'm currently suffering from fatigue and minor depression.
Second of all, Cuba is doing poorly primarily because of the US trade embargo. If that's not evil, then I do not know what is. As for a socialist country with very little resources, it's doing quite well whereas a capitalist nation would, under these circumstances, wouldn't have been able to function at all. As for prayer, yes, you would be allowed to ask for prayer and pray publicly in a Communist country. Absolutely. The USSR had and still has a large population of Orthodox Christians (majority of the population). Venezuela and Cuba are both Catholic. Religion was protected in the USSR and was a right to everybody. http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/const/77cons02.html#chap07 Article 52 of Chapter 6 of the 1977 constitution.

That product doesn't cure it. It only 'relieves the pain'.

I also found out that William Shatner also has tinnitus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7bL9BhESYA
 

revdw76

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I heard an avowed Socialist the other day criticize Christians because they had a problem with the government increasing their taxes in order to have more money with which "to take care of the poor."

YEAH ...RIGHT!!!!!! THEN WHY ARE THE SOCIAL SECURITY, MEDICARE, MEDICAID AND WE
LFARE PROGRAMS BEING CUT.
blink.gif
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Right now this so called capitalist country is being took down the communist path by the powers that be in DC. if we don't do something we will be in the same shape or worse than russia or cuba or even china.
 

Wakka

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The United States is readily capitalist and is no where near to becoming socialist. Simply because the dems are trying to pass some social programs doesn't mean that we're signing away our freedom. Finland, has some of the most social programs and is perhaps the best capitalist country to live in.

A large majority of socialists don't like to be associated with Obama. Calling him a socialist is an insult to us!
 

01CobraVortech

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One of the major issues with Cuba right now is not necessarily the fault of Fidel, but a result of the fall of the Soviet Union. Cuba lost something like 75% of their trade during the 1990s, and the US embargo continued. Don't you think it's evil that the US Foreign policy blocks prosperity to another nation? This blockade is absolutely pointless.

Basic info on what life in Cuba is like: http://library.think...daily_life.html

Please don't defend Castro. Its rather evil of you doing that. Castro was a murdering thug like Che Guevara. We have multiple Cuban human's rights groups in NJ that have plenty to say about the murder and torture that Castro is responsible for against political dissenters. Castro is subhuman and is responsible for a disturbing death toll. Its very difficult for me to characterize a trade embargo as evil, given nations decide for themselves who they want to do business with. Does the embargo hurt Cuba? Sure. Can Castro be instrumental in changing that? Of course. Maybe Castro should consider switching his brand of communism to the one sued by China.