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Christianity Conforms More To Communism Than To Capitalism

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Wakka, May 2, 2010.

  1. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    -- By its very nature the utopia communism you see will never come to be.
    There is no way you can have freedom and the ordered society necessary for its existance.
    It really is that simple.
     
  2. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    That's debatable. Do you have any scholarly sources to back that up? Wouldn't you say that as Christians it is our duty to try to achieve as close of a "utopia" as possible through due process or 'other means'.

    I simply cannot support a system that allows people to be walked on and abused simply because they are unfortunate or poor. The United States has a unprecedented crime rate and millions of youths are joining street gangs. Places such as Los Angeles and Detroit have been deemed unsafe. Why is that? Because the poor feel oppressed and therefore resort to crime to obtain necessities, pay outstanding loans, buy drugs to ease depression.
     
  3. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    -- Have you even studied what Communism is according to those who originally envisioned it?
    The state decides what you will do.
    The state decides what you will study.
    The state decides where you will live.
    The state will regulate your salary.
    The state will decide when/if you get medical treatment, and how much.
    The state will decide if you must serve in the military.
    The state will decide what goods and services are available to you.
    And remember, the state is making these decisions "for the greater good of all."
    Your personal opinion can be seen as divisive if you do not want what the state wants.
    And if you do not agree with the state? Well, we have seen that played out before, haven't we?
    And "other means" is a buzz phrase used by those who want their way by any means necessary.

    The point remains: Communism is good in theory, but horrendous in actual application.

    My friend, I have not only spent years studying this topic, but actually witnessed the implementations.
    I lived in West Berlin during the Cold War and saw first hand what happened to those who wished to leave their "workers paradise."

    You called what happened in the USSR and in China "dictatorships."
    That is exactly what Communism requires to function.
    If people refuse to do what the state says, the system crumbles.
    Free will is the reason your utopia will not function.

    The reason Christianity cannot be allowed because Christians will not obey an unjust system and will speak out.
    They will not allow Communism to be their God...but that is exactly what Communism requires to function.

    You are another one of those "it just hasn't been implemented correctly" proponents.
    For your own good I hope you never have to find out just how misguided that thinking is.

     
  4. 01CobraVortech

    01CobraVortech New Member

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    Wow talk about dismissing personal accountability for choices people make when it comes to choosing evil over good. There is no human form of government on earth that is perfect. But suggesting that our unprecedented crime rates are driven simply by oppression or unfortunate circumstances is utterly ridiculous on so many levels. But I do thank you for making this post because now I understand that its really oppression that's also driving rape, premeditated murder and all other forms of violent crime. :rolleyes: Sorry, but your over simplification of the causes of the unprecedented crime rates is only reality in a sociology class. In reality, there is incredible evil and cold hearts behind much of the premeditated crime we are seeing.
     
  5. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    The state decides what you will do.
    Doesn't any government set down rules and laws for their people to follow?

    The state decides what you will study.
    Aren't we already doing this to an extent in any sort of educational institution, government or private?

    The state decides where you will live.

    There are still masses of people that live originally where they lived. But the state can buy your land from you.

    The state will regulate your salary.
    Minimum wage?

    The state will decide when/if you get medical treatment, and how much.

    Stop soaking up Fox News.

    The state will decide if you must serve in the military.

    Drafts?

    The state will decide what goods and services are available to you.
    Don't governments already do that with regulatory boards to keep out bad foods?

    And remember, the state is making these decisions "for the greater good of all."
    This is total nonsense, any government in the world is demanding to act in the interests of the greater good.

    http://bit.ly/1alY6f

    What you don't understand is that Marxism is the route to which the workers control the means of production. Not some national entity like Stalin or Mao.

    Why should any good christian support capitalism? Why can you allow a system of exploitation take place?

    "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a communist." ~Dom Hélder Câmara
     
  6. Martin W.

    Martin W. New Member

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    Somewhat off topic but it brings to mind something that happens every Christmas here. We are still symbolically under the British Crown and out of all the various politicians , mayors, and leaders who spout the politically correct "Holiday messages" at Christmas , the Queen of England is about the only one who boldly talks about Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

    I have never been a Monarchist but have always admired her for that.

    God Save The Queen.
     
  7. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    -- Face it, you have theory and naivete'. I have fact and history. Wake up.
     
  8. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    What happened in the USSR and China are both full examples of Communism. How many mulligans do you require?

    These two of the largest nations on the Earth both went through the cycle of Communism. What makes Communism what it is comes in the form of the power that is assembled at the top. Communism is by definition a dictatorship because some form of absolute power must enforce the redistribution required to keep the show running. It always, without exception, ends up with a dictator or dictatorial party at the helm. An example cannot be shown otherwise, period.

    Aside from being an incredibly naive view of crime, the statistics simply don't back you up!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

    Let's just look at the homicide rates. (Of which curiously we don't have the Chinese rates...)

    We simply object to this system because (obviously for us at least) God never sanctioned forced charity nor did he call for a government which controls all. Rendering unto Caesar is one thing, but here we are yet again at the mistake made over and over and still over in history. We (men and women) attempt to setup a system that will do the work of God and try to play God. This system is no different from an all-controlling church hierarchy or a society of priest who make and interpret the laws as they see fit.

    Please wake up from that mistake because the day will come when that will be a part of the last mistake ever made.
     
  9. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    An economic ideology back up by science and mathematics isn't simply a theory. It's very possible and a matter of time until a socialist country becomes communist. By the way, marxism isn't dead, there's a large progressive move towards communism and it's becoming readily popular. If you follow the news you'd know this, look at Nepal, Venezuela, India, and parts of Russia still.

    The USSR and China never achieved Communism. No country has ever had a communist system of government. The countries that we call "Communist" are countries where the dominant political party was/is the Communist Party. Communist Parties are generally political parties who have working towards achieving "communism" as part of their party platform.

    The difference between working towards communism and "communism" itself is like the difference between building a house and living in a house. The Soviet Union, for example, never claimed to have achieved communism. In theory, what was taking place in the Soviet Union was an attempt to do the work needed to construct a communist society. Just as building a house is hard work, that has to be done in order to have a house to live in, the Stalinist system of the Soviet Union was seen as the hard work that was being done by everyone to build a communist system. It was never seen by any of the Communists as "communism" itself, any more than a construction foreman would think that the act of building a home is the same as lounging on the couch inside a home. In truth, most Communists today recognize that the Soviet Union was mostly just a large, corrupt, top down bureaucracy that didn't represent the ideals of Marxism or Communism.

    Contrary to popular misconception, the goal of Communists was ultimately to abolish the State altogether. Basic Communist ideology holds that the purpose of "the State" is to enforce social and economic disparity. According to Marxist thinking the State developed as a tool for a minority of people to oppress other people. Marxists contend that we are all naturally relatively equal, and that significant inequality among people can only exist through the use of State force. Historically the State has always been used as a means to support a wealthy and powerful minority. From the Sumerians and Egyptians to the British Empire and beyond, the traditional role of the State has been to protect the interests of the wealthy and facilitate wealth transfer from the working masses to the wealthy property owners


    You're right, I jumped the gun. But don't brush that off because that is a legitimate reason for a lot of crime. But have a look at China's report on America's human rights violations: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2010-03/12/content_9582821.htm

    All of the sources are from American news agencies and organizations.

    Do the work of God? We have some of the most immoral cities, we wage wars on a regular basis, our economy depends on interest and credit (money that we don't necessarily own). Capitalism is no less evil than Communism (or Socialism for that matter), it depends on the people running it. And don't say that socialism tends to incorporate evil and greedy rulers because capitalism doesn't have a clean track record either (Nazi Germany, capitalist method of practice). Those Eastern Bloc countries, after the collapse, are now heavily corrupt. Look at Latvia for example (where I'm from). It's the most corrupt of the Baltic states and is literally bankrupt. The country had to implement severe austerity measures (which Greece is coincidentally doing at this moment). To be honest, I don't think that the Euro will last any longer.
     
  10. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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  11. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    No, it works in Cuba, and it worked in the GDR and USSR till the mid-80's. The USSR wasn't socialist when it collapsed, it was deliberately destroyed by Gorbachev's economic reforms.

    The people of Cuba are overwhelmingly supportive of their revolution. When given a chance to state their opinion, the Soviet people voted to preserve the USSR in 1991.

    Again, how did it not work?

    None of this applied to the Warsaw Pact countries. Neither does it apply to Cuba.

    It worked until Gorbachev betrayed Marxism and Communism. It started to slowly crumble when Khrushchev began to deviate from Marxism and Communism.

    Actually no. Manual labor will be mostly abolished in communism.

    Communist production takes place in order to satisfy needs. People have a need for disposable time. If you look at the history of socialist states, you'll see that they constantly lowered the amount of hours the people had to work. In the GDR, miners and similarly hard working people had to work only 4 hours a day. Communism will logically extrapolate that trend, and work will become something that people do because they want to, because they feel like it. At least manual labor will stop being a necessity.
     
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  12. 01CobraVortech

    01CobraVortech New Member

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    It works in Cuba? :lol: Now you've lost all credibility. Plenty of defectors have reported the conditions in Cuba, not to mention many tourists from Canada. The poverty there is disturbing and the human rights violations and persecution for dissenting political beoiefs doesn't even need elaboration. A Commie Christian? I love it. :lol:
     
  13. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    One of the major issues with Cuba right now is not necessarily the fault of Fidel, but a result of the fall of the Soviet Union. Cuba lost something like 75% of their trade during the 1990s, and the US embargo continued. Don't you think it's evil that the US Foreign policy blocks prosperity to another nation? This blockade is absolutely pointless.

    Basic info on what life in Cuba is like: http://library.thinkquest.org/18355/daily_life.html
     
  14. jerryjohnson

    jerryjohnson New Member

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    Wakka

    Go over to Cuba W, maybe they can help you with your Tinnitus.
     
  15. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    That's a horrible joke.
     
  16. jerryjohnson

    jerryjohnson New Member

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    Wakka,

    Let’s get something straight.
    You said:

    Then you said in the shoutbox:

    I answered:

    Then I said:

    You answered:
    My response:
    No joke young man. Capitalism in the USA makes possible a new product call Quietus for tinnitus, a Communist country would not make a product like that.

    Would you have been allowed to ask for Prayer publicly in a Communist country? You could in the USA.
     
  17. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    First of all, Tinnitus is not something to joke about. You don't understand what I'm going through right now without actually having experienced tinnitus. It's been easily the worst week of my life and I'm currently suffering from fatigue and minor depression.
    Second of all, Cuba is doing poorly primarily because of the US trade embargo. If that's not evil, then I do not know what is. As for a socialist country with very little resources, it's doing quite well whereas a capitalist nation would, under these circumstances, wouldn't have been able to function at all. As for prayer, yes, you would be allowed to ask for prayer and pray publicly in a Communist country. Absolutely. The USSR had and still has a large population of Orthodox Christians (majority of the population). Venezuela and Cuba are both Catholic. Religion was protected in the USSR and was a right to everybody. http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/const/77cons02.html#chap07 Article 52 of Chapter 6 of the 1977 constitution.

    That product doesn't cure it. It only 'relieves the pain'.

    I also found out that William Shatner also has tinnitus.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7bL9BhESYA
     
  18. revdw76

    revdw76 New Member

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    YEAH ...RIGHT!!!!!! THEN WHY ARE THE SOCIAL SECURITY, MEDICARE, MEDICAID AND WE
    LFARE PROGRAMS BEING CUT.[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] Right now this so called capitalist country is being took down the communist path by the powers that be in DC. if we don't do something we will be in the same shape or worse than russia or cuba or even china.
     
  19. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    The United States is readily capitalist and is no where near to becoming socialist. Simply because the dems are trying to pass some social programs doesn't mean that we're signing away our freedom. Finland, has some of the most social programs and is perhaps the best capitalist country to live in.

    A large majority of socialists don't like to be associated with Obama. Calling him a socialist is an insult to us!
     
  20. 01CobraVortech

    01CobraVortech New Member

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    Please don't defend Castro. Its rather evil of you doing that. Castro was a murdering thug like Che Guevara. We have multiple Cuban human's rights groups in NJ that have plenty to say about the murder and torture that Castro is responsible for against political dissenters. Castro is subhuman and is responsible for a disturbing death toll. Its very difficult for me to characterize a trade embargo as evil, given nations decide for themselves who they want to do business with. Does the embargo hurt Cuba? Sure. Can Castro be instrumental in changing that? Of course. Maybe Castro should consider switching his brand of communism to the one sued by China.
     
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