Jesus Christ Is God!

Paul · Sep 8, 2010

Jesus Christ, Yeshua Hamashiach, is 100% God and 100% man, human or your faith is in vain. If He, Yeshua Hamashiach is not 100% God, He is not sinless; He is not the Lamb of God that “takes away the sin of the world. If He, Yeshua Hamashiach, is not 100% human, He can not die in our place. If you do not believe that, you do not belong on this part of the board.

Jesus Christ, Yeshua Hamashiach, is the Word, Logos, of God in human form. He, Yeshua Hamashiach, is Eternal, with The Father, Yahavah, YHVH, and The Holy Spirit, Ruach Ha-Kodesh.

Simpleman · Sep 8, 2010

Paul said:
Jesus Christ, Yeshua Hamashiach, is 100% God and 100% man, human or your faith is in vain. If He, Yeshua Hamashiach is not 100% God, He is not sinless; He is not the Lamb of God that “takes away the sin of the world. If He, Yeshua Hamashiach, is not 100% human, He can not die in our place. If you do not believe that, you do not belong on this part of the board. Jesus Christ, Yeshua Hamashiach, is the Word, Logos, of God in human form. He, Yeshua Hamashiach, is Eternal, with The Father, Yahavah, YHVH, and The Holy Spirit, Ruach Ha-Kodesh.

So why does he hand back the kingdom and subject himself to the father if he is God, do that make sense, I don’t think so - does he hand back the kingdom to himself?

HammerStone · Sep 8, 2010

So why does he hand back the kingdom and subject himself to the father if he is God, do that make sense, I don’t think so - does he hand back the kingdom to himself?

Why ever would a son say this?

[bible=John 14:9-11]
Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
[/bible]

On top of that, why ever are we limiting Christ to the earthly definition of a son? Is our Father, a He, just an old male/man? Or do we know him to be more than that?

Simpleman · Sep 9, 2010

Eccl.12:13 said:
The God that was with God the Father in the beginning....

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

The God that was with God the Father in the beginning....When was that beginning?

Here are a few alternative texts to John 1:1

1808: “and the word was a god.” The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text.
1864: “and a god was the word.” The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading, by Benjamin Wilson.
1928: “and the Word was a divine being.” La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel.
1935: “and the Word was divine.” The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.
1946: “and of a divine kind was the Word.” Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme..
1958: “and the Word was a God.” The New Testament, by James L. Tomanek.
1975: “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz.
1978: “and godlike kind was the Logos.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider.

Simpleman · Sep 9, 2010

The following clearly make a distinction between Yahweh and Jesus. Yahweh being the ONLY TRUE GOD who send Jesus his son into the world.

NASB: "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

KJV: "And this is life eternal, that they may know thee the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

NIV: "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

NLT: "And this is the way to have eternal life - to know you, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth."

NCV: "And this is eternal life: that people know you, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and that they know Jesus Christ, the One you sent."

CEV: "Eternal life is to know you, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and to know Jesus Christ, the one you sent."

NKJV: "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

NAB: "Now this is eternal life, that they should know you, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ."

NRSV: "And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

I’m still waiting for a Trinitarian to answer just how Christ subjects himself to the Father if the two are co-equal (1cor 15)

HammerStone · Sep 9, 2010

I’m still waiting for a Trinitarian to answer just how Christ subjects himself to the Father if the two are co-equal (1cor 15)

I'm still waiting for an answer as well.

I've already given an answer, it's just you come with a preconceived notion otherwise.

I'm not one to give an English lesson all of the time, but I'm not really sure how with the above verse (John 17:3) the word "and" somehow becomes mutually exclusive?

God also sends the Holy Spirit, but is He not God? Can God not have titles and roles, or are we prepared to limit him to a single existence? Care to describe it exactly for me? Did not his Spirit move upon the waters? Would you care to argue that was not God but is his Spirit which is not the same? Or do we clearly have an example here that God is outside the typical paradigms we know? How can one see the Father (especially THE Father) in the Son? If you've not seen a person's father, do you ever hear them say, if you've seen me, you've seen my old man? We can remark about similarities in resemblance, characteristics, and mannerisms but I've never heard someone say - "eh, my father is just like me, so you're speaking to him..." That's a bold claim because we have the concept of self. I'm not my parent and they are not me, no matter what we've been taught or how alike we look. Even twins cannot make that claim. This is one of the foundations of existence we do know - self - and it's always distinct from the Father yet we have someone here who says - you see me, a man - well you've seen God. That's a lot of God to cram into man and that would by very definition make that man God.

[bible=Isaiah 49:7]
Thus says the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel and his Holy One, to one deeply despised, abhorred by the nation, the servant of rulers: "Kings shall see and arise; princes, and they shall prostrate themselves; because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you."
[/bible]

Just noting the titles in the above verse.

[bible=Titus 1:2 KJV]
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
[/bible]

This goes back my earlier thoughts in this post. We have collaboration that Christ was given the power of salvation (John 17:1-2) - that's a pretty weighty responsibility to be given to someone outside of God. Why would he need a demi-god or man to dole out his power? Yet we see here that just like Christ, it was promised before the world began. Otherwise, I admit I'm not really here to discuss various interpretations of a verse, because one can easily produce a more suitable version to his or her views quite easily. It's the tough verses that are ignored where the rubber hits the road.

Simpleman · Sep 10, 2010

HammerStone said:
I'm still waiting for an answer as well.

I've already given an answer, it's just you come with a preconceived notion otherwise.

Sorry but once again you failed to answer the question. Trinitarians are fond of quoting the Athanasian Creed so here is its definition.

But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. … The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal…But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal.

Now it’s a simple question that you have failed to answer, if the Father is coequal how is the son to be subjected?

1 Corinthians 15:24 then the end, when he should have delivered up the kingdom to the God and Father, when he should have abrogated all government and all authority and power.

1 Corinthians 15:25 It behooves for him to reign, till he may have placed all the enemies under the feet of him.

1 Corinthians 15:26 Last enemy is rendered powerless the death;

1 Corinthians 15:27 all things for he subjected under the feet of him. When but it may be said, that all things have been subjected, it is evident, that is excepted the one having subjected to him the all things.

1 Corinthians 15:28 When but may be subjected to him, the all things, then also himself the son will be subject to the one having subjected to him the all things so that may be the God the all things in all.

It stands to reason; the son cannot be subjected and coequal.

the Son unlimited

“So Jesus answered them by saying, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, the Son is able to do nothing of Himself (of His own accord); but He is able to do only what He sees the Father doing, for whatever the Father does is what the Son does in the same way [in His turn](John 5:19 Amplified Bible)

And don't quote the usual yarn, it was because Jesus was a man on earth, that’s mere conjecture.

On numerous occasions we read “God the Father” yet never do we read God the Son. Even the demons addressed Jesus in the correct manor: “And behold, they shrieked and screamed, What have You to do with us, Jesus, Son of God? (Matthew 8:29)

Galatians 1:3
“Grace be to you, and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ”

1 Timothy 1:2
“To Timothy, his beloved son in faith. Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father, and from Christ Jesus our Lord”

2 Timothy 1:2
To Timothy my dearly beloved son, grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from Christ Jesus our Lord

I see two not three in one in those passages of text with no mention of the Holy Spirit, a clear distinction between God the Father and Jesus Christ. If Jesus were God it word read “LORD Jesus Christ”. No mention anywhere of God the Son or God the Holy Ghost just “God the Father”.

Was it not Jesus who said at John 5:23 [sup][/sup][sup]“[/sup]A time will come, however, indeed it is already here, when the true (genuine) worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth (reality); for the Father is seeking just such people as these as His worshipers”

He didn’t say they would worship him, but directed the worship to his father.

[Rather, I will say,] Father, glorify (honor and extol) Your [own] name! Then there came a voice out of heaven saying, I have already glorified it, and I will glorify it again. (John 12:28)

Are you even aware of the name of God? יהוה

Paul · Sep 10, 2010

Simpleman said:
Sorry but once again you failed to answer the question. Trinitarians are fond of quoting the Athanasian Creed so here is its definition.

But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. … The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal…But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal.

Now it’s a simple question that you have failed to answer, if the Father is coequal how is the son to be subjected?

1 Corinthians 15:24 then the end, when he should have delivered up the kingdom to the God and Father, when he should have abrogated all government and all authority and power.

1 Corinthians 15:25 It behooves for him to reign, till he may have placed all the enemies under the feet of him.

1 Corinthians 15:26 Last enemy is rendered powerless the death;

1 Corinthians 15:27 all things for he subjected under the feet of him. When but it may be said, that all things have been subjected, it is evident, that is excepted the one having subjected to him the all things.

1 Corinthians 15:28 When but may be subjected to him, the all things, then also himself the son will be subject to the one having subjected to him the all things so that may be the God the all things in all.

It stands to reason; the son cannot be subjected and coequal.

Of course He can and He did.
Php 2:1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
Php 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
Php 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
Php 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Christ is God! When He put on the form of a human, He, of His own will, subjected Himself. That is why He could say in Mat 24:36 “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” As God, Christ knew very well when the end would be but as the Son, He didn’t.

As human we voluntarily subject ourselves to other we are equal to all the time.

“So Jesus answered them by saying, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, the Son is able to do nothing of Himself (of His own accord); but He is able to do only what He sees the Father doing, for whatever the Father does is what the Son does in the same way [in His turn](John 5:19 Amplified Bible)

And don't quote the usual yarn, it was because Jesus was a man on earth, that’s mere conjecture.

On numerous occasions we read “God the Father” yet never do we read God the Son. Even the demons addressed Jesus in the correct manor: “And behold, they shrieked and screamed, What have You to do with us, Jesus, Son of God? (Matthew 8:29)

Galatians 1:3
“Grace be to you, and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ”

1 Timothy 1:2
“To Timothy, his beloved son in faith. Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father, and from Christ Jesus our Lord”

2 Timothy 1:2
To Timothy my dearly beloved son, grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from Christ Jesus our Lord

I see two not three in one in those passages of text with no mention of the Holy Spirit, a clear distinction between God the Father and Jesus Christ. If Jesus were God it word read “LORD Jesus Christ”. No mention anywhere of God the Son or God the Holy Ghost just “God the Father”.

Was it not Jesus who said at John 5:23 [sup][/sup][sup]“[/sup]A time will come, however, indeed it is already here, when the true (genuine) worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth (reality); for the Father is seeking just such people as these as His worshipers”

He didn’t say they would worship him, but directed the worship to his father.

[Rather, I will say,] Father, glorify (honor and extol) Your [own] name! Then there came a voice out of heaven saying, I have already glorified it, and I will glorify it again. (John 12:28)

Are you even aware of the name of God? יהוה

Yes, I am very well acquainted with the name of God, H3068
יהוה
yehôvâh
yeh-ho-vaw'
From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.

I am also well acquainted with the many other names of God in Hebrew.
John Parsons at www.hebrew4christians.com does a lot better job of this at:
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/names_of_g-d.html than I ever could. I do not expect you to read it but many that are searching for truth will.

Also read: http://www.hebrew4christians.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=151&t=1972&start=0&hilit=trinity

Selene · Sep 10, 2010

Simpleman said:
Sorry but once again you failed to answer the question. Trinitarians are fond of quoting the Athanasian Creed so here is its definition.

But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. … The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal…But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal.

Now it’s a simple question that you have failed to answer, if the Father is coequal how is the son to be subjected?

1 Corinthians 15:24 then the end, when he should have delivered up the kingdom to the God and Father, when he should have abrogated all government and all authority and power.

1 Corinthians 15:25 It behooves for him to reign, till he may have placed all the enemies under the feet of him.

1 Corinthians 15:26 Last enemy is rendered powerless the death;

1 Corinthians 15:27 all things for he subjected under the feet of him. When but it may be said, that all things have been subjected, it is evident, that is excepted the one having subjected to him the all things.

1 Corinthians 15:28 When but may be subjected to him, the all things, then also himself the son will be subject to the one having subjected to him the all things so that may be the God the all things in all.

It stands to reason; the son cannot be subjected and coequal.

It is the human part of the Son that is subjected under God because the human part of Christ came from Mary. After all, Jesus is not just the Son of God, He is also the son of Mary. Christ is 100% man and 100% God. The 100% God that is Christ is NOT subject to Him because He is God.

in Christ,
Selene

Simpleman · Sep 10, 2010

Selene said:
It is the human part of the Son that is subjected under God because the human part of Christ came from Mary. After all, Jesus is not just the Son of God, He is also the son of Mary. Christ is 100% man and 100% God. The 100% God that is Christ is NOT subject to Him because He is God.

in Christ,
Selene

Please correct me if I’m wrong, I might be misunderstanding you, but are you actually saying Jesus is in heaven a thousand years from now in the physical flesh, a man subjected to the Father.

Paul · Sep 10, 2010

Simpleman said:
Please correct me if I’m wrong, I might be misunderstanding you, but are you actually saying Jesus is in heaven a thousand years from now in the physical flesh, a man subjected to the Father.

Yes, again you are in error!

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Christ is equal to the Father as the Three are One. But you will refuse to understand this, so be it! You WILL understand it some day and you will be taught. The great time of teaching and discipline is coming soon.

HammerStone · Sep 10, 2010

Now it’s a simple question that you have failed to answer, if the Father is coequal how is the son to be subjected?

I think this tone says it all; it always seems like a good move to ignore the other side's questions completely, but outside of your particular belief system (which you came here to promote anyway, correct?) this doesn't work. You've managed to bring in a creed which I never mentioned.

Alongside that, I find it rather easy and petty to use God-given common sense to rebut your argument of subjection because the Holy Spirit is identified as being sent by Christ and from God. When's the last time you (or anyone you know) ordered God's spirit to do anything? By virtue of His Spirit being sent says something about an admittedly complex relationship already. We have the same statements made of Christ as well. We can pray and we can petition all we want, but no mere man commands the Spirit of God whither to go.

[bible=John 15:26 KJV]
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
[/bible]

It just seems as though you try to argue this in large generalities. We don't require creeds to understand best we can about God and we certainly don't limit Him because of our vocabulary limitations. You've yet to present a quantifiable negative statement that Jesus the Christ is not God. Instead, you'll resort to the tired old arguments by trying to infer a negative and simply ignoring the other verses that suddenly make that interpretation much more ambiguous.

fivesense · Sep 10, 2010

HammerStone said:
Why ever would a son say this?

[bible=John 14:9-11]
Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
On top of that, why ever are we limiting Christ to the earthly definition of a son? Is our Father, a He, just an old male/man? Or do we know him to be more than that?

Jn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

I suppose, staying true to the reasoning out of John 14, the disciples undoubtable were God too.

The error is found in not discerning relative truth and absolute truth. There is only one God. This is absolute truth.

1C 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

This also is absolute truth. To make the claim that Christ Jesus, the image of God, is in fact God, is ignorance of the Scriptures, and unbelief. It is also a contribution of creedalism and the mistake of reliance upon men and tradition above the plain declarations of God.

In the matter of salvation it matters not, for the Lord know those who are His, and is able to make them to stand. But the knowledge that determines or limits the scope of light that enters into the mind and heart is greatly affected by the singleness of devotion to what He has said to us, and not men.

God is invisible, inaudible, and no one ever has, or ever will, see the Father, the Supreme One God. He has given us His Son, who proceeded out from the Father, and was sent by the Father, the express visible image of the invisible God, the Logos Who, being in the FORM of God, emptied Himself as Co-Creator and equal (not identical) to God in power, to become fashioned as a man.

Not one soul alive can apprehend the tiniest portion of the Great God of all things, and the God of Jesus Christ our Lord. We need Jesus, the Mediator, or we flounder and perish. He is our God in a relative sense with all the honor and praise due the Father. But Christ is not the One True God. And the Scriptures are very clear about this.

fivesense

veteran · Sep 11, 2010

John 10:27-34
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand.
29 My Father, Which gave them Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.
30 I and My Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works have I shewed you from My Father; for which of those works do ye stone Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we stone Thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that Thou, being a man, makest Thyself God."
34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, I said, 'Ye are gods?' "
(KJV)

That's the very reason many Jews have a difficult time believing that Christ Jesus is God. They cannot believe that God came in the flesh, period. If our Lord Jesus were here today come in the flesh, these same Jews today would probably react the same way their Pharisee fathers did, and take up stones to stone Him for showing them that He is God come in the flesh.

fivesense · Sep 11, 2010

veteran said:
John 10:27-34
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand.
29 My Father, Which gave them Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.
30 I and My Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works have I shewed you from My Father; for which of those works do ye stone Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we stone Thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that Thou, being a man, makest Thyself God."
34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, I said, 'Ye are gods?' "
(KJV)

That's the very reason many Jews have a difficult time believing that Christ Jesus is God. They cannot believe that God came in the flesh, period. If our Lord Jesus were here today come in the flesh, these same Jews today would probably react the same way their Pharisee fathers did, and take up stones to stone Him for showing them that He is God come in the flesh.

The Scriptures say nothing of the sort. There is no passage in the Original Writings that says, "God came in the flesh". You infer where there is no revelation to support. Jesus Himself testified that what they were ready to stone Him for was just as true concerning those born of the Adamic nature. He purposely and truthfully remained steadfast in refusing to make any claim to deity other than in relationship to His God and Father. Jesus had a God. God has no God or Father.

The Logos was in the FORM of God, prior to His incarnation. The Logos became flesh and dwelt among the Jews. Nowhere does it say in the Writings that God came and dwelt with anyone. God will be eternally invisible and inaudible. It is not possible to be in the form of something and at the same time be that something. This defies sane reasoning, something that God does not look upon as blessedness.

Let me provide what you conveniently left out of context in your explanation:

Jn 10:35-36 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

What was His claim? That He was the Son of God. Does that confer deity upon Him? How about these next passages, is deity conferred here as well, or do we dismiss them as meaning something different than what is said?

Mt 5:9 'Happy the peacemakers-because they shall be called Sons of God.

Lk 20:36 for neither are they able to die any more-for they are like messengers-and they are sons of God, being sons of the rising again.

Ro 8:14 for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God;

Ro 8:19 for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God;

Ga 3:26 for ye are all sons of God through the faith in Christ Jesus,

What you put forth as truth cannot be sustained by the Scriptures without denying the validity of these passages. We are not deity, and our Lord never made any claim to such. It is the creeds of men that prefer their interpretations over and above what God has spoken. Was Christ divine and begotten of God? Absolutely. By power of Holy Spirit Mary conceived the blessed Child. But He is not God the Supreme.

There is for us only One God, the Father out of Whom all is.
fivesense

Selene · Sep 11, 2010

Simpleman said:
Please correct me if I’m wrong, I might be misunderstanding you, but are you actually saying Jesus is in heaven a thousand years from now in the physical flesh, a man subjected to the Father.

My brother, Jesus Christ is already physically in Heaven sitting at the right hand of the Father. You misunderstand scripture. Jesus is no longer a man of flesh now that He has ascended into Heaven. His body is no longer a body of flesh, but a glorified body in Heaven.

In Christ,
Selene

herald · Sep 22, 2010

Simpleman said:
Please correct me if I’m wrong, I might be misunderstanding you, but are you actually saying Jesus is in heaven a thousand years from now in the physical flesh, a man subjected to the Father.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!

pgfinest2002 · Oct 2, 2010

Sorry if the discussion is over, but I just wanted to add some more passages that support the fact that Jesus is God.

Titus 2:13 -14

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ..."

Paul calls Jesus God and Savior in this passage. Now you may say Paul says one is God and the other is the savior Jesus Christ, but the next verse makes it clear Jesus is God.

v. 14 - ...Who gave Himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity.

Who gave Himself for us? The Father or Jesus, the Son? The answer is the Son gave Himself for us, as Paul states again and again. Whose appearance are we awaiting? God and Christ or Christ's appearing? We are awaiting Christ's appearing.

I Timothy 3:16 is even more clear.

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh....

garyfromvernon · Oct 8, 2010

I always felt that when the trinitarian type verses of Jesus were in harmony with the arian type verses of Jesus I would be close to the truth. I did a big study, and sort of feel I have a belief system on Jesus. I read everything I could. I really like the Aramaic Peshitta Christians, and I like to read the earliest Christian writings too. I like Ignatius, Polycarp, Papias as they were students of John, I also like Hyppolytus and Irenaeus who have teaching lineage to John as well. I like to check what they wrote about certian verses, as they spoke the old language and lived close in time to the writings.
What they taught about Jesus
1) They taught Jesus was God
2) They taught that Jesus was eternal and uncreated
3) They taught that Jesus is the only begotten son of God

When I read how they believed what the bible says, that Jesus truly was the Only Begotten Son of God, all the verses make sense. Begotten means, that the substance of a male leaves his body, and after that becomes a person. So the Father always had the Son inside of himself, when he was Begotten, he came out of the Father as the Son. He is eternal and uncreated, and he is begotten. He is Begotten of the Father, not created, he is the substance of the Father. God does not have sex, so as they taught, he came directly from the Fathers own being. The Word is the substance of God, which is eternal and uncreated. The Word was always within God, and the Word was Begotten of God, and when that happened he became the Son.
The Substance of the Father called the Word, is begotten of the Father as the eternal, uncreated Jesus
Origen "The Father generates an uncreated Son".
Clement of Alexandria "There was; then, a Word importing an unbeginning eternity; as also the Word itself, that is, the Son of God, who being, by equality of SUBSTANCE, one with the Father is eternal and uncreated.
Origen "The Word was always with the Father.
Tertullian "...Moreover, He was alone, because there was nothing external to Him but Himself. Yet, even then He was not completely alone. For He had with Him that which He possessed IN Himself- that is to say His own Reason...This Reason is His own Thought, which the Greeks call Logos, by which term we also designate WORD or discourse...Although God had not yet sent out His Word, He still had Him WITHIN Himself...God was not alone. For He had within Himself both Reason, and inherent in reason. His Word...having WITHIN Him...
Tertullian "for He was alone begotten of God in a way peculiar to Himself, from the womb of The Father's own heart. This is just as the Father Himself testifies. He says, "My heart has emitted my most excellent Word".
Hippolytus "The Logos alone of this One is from God Himself. For that reason also, He is God, being of the SUBSTANCE of God".
Origen "For we do NOT hold that which the heretics imagine; that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existant substances, that is, from a substance OUTSIDE Himself, so that there was a time when he did not exist.
Origen "..."who was born indeed of Him, and derives from Him what He is, but WITHOUT any beginnings...
Hippolytus "The Logo's is God, being the substance of God".
Novatian "...Yet, He who is before all time must be said to have been always IN the Father... I am speaking of the Devine substance whose name is the Word.

So think of the verse Hebrews 1:5, one of the arian Christians main verses. "You are my Son, today I have become your Father", could this be referring to the point in time when The Word, the substance of God, coming out of the Father (begotten) and taking his place as the Son? To be 'begotten' Jesus would have to be the substance of the Father.

John 1:1
Hippolytus "If, the Word was with God, and was God, what follows? Would I say that I speak of two Gods? I will NOT indeed speak of two Gods, but one. I speak of two Persons, however...For the Father is indeed one, but there are two Persons, because there is also the Son."
Tertullian "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. A much more ancient testimony we have also in Genesis: Then the LORD (YHWH) rained upon Sodom and upon Gommorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (YHWH) out of Heaven... Gen 19:24
Tertullian "For although the Word was God, he was with God".
Justin Martyr " the Word of God, is even God".
Ignatius (learned from the author of John 1:1) "the Lord our God, Jesus Christ".
Ignatius " Continue is intimate union with Jesus Christ, our God"
Irenaeus "But Jesus is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, Lord, King Eternal, and the incarnate Word...

I AM
Irenaeus ..."And again when the Son speaks to Moses, He says, I am come down to deliver this people".
Tertullian "Christ Himself even testifies back then that this name was HIS own, when he talked with Moses. For who was it who talked with Moses, but the Spirit of the Creator, who is Christ".
Tertullian For He who ever spoke to Moses was the Son of God Himself, who, too, was always seen. For no one ever saw God the Father and lived. (many men in the O.T. saw YHWH, yet the Father and the Son both say nobody saw the Father, Jesus said "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father", Tertullian is saying that the YHWH they saw in the O.T. was not the Father, but the Son.
Tertullian..."for we know that it was the Son who was seen in ancient times". (Isaiah 6:5, Isaiah said he saw YHWH Almighty, but nobody has 'seen the Father", so who did they see?)

Hebrews 1:8
Origen "Pay careful attention to what follows, where He is called God: "For your throne, O'God, is forever and ever".
Justin Martyr "Thy throne O God, is forever and ever"
Novatian "Why, then, should man hesitate to call Christ 'God', when he observes that He is declared to be God by the Father, according to scriptures"

1 Timothy 3:16 ... the mystery of godliness is great: God appeared in a body (some manuscripts read, "he appeared in a body", which version did the first Christians have?)
Ignatius "God himself was manifest in human form for the renewal of eternal life.
Irenaeus "Thus He indicates in clear terms that He is God, and that His advent was in Bethlehem...God, then, was made man, and the Lord did Himself save us.
Tertullian "If God had willed not to be born, He would not have presented Himself in the likeness of man."

Matthew 1:23
Irenaeus "He is God, for the name Immanuel indicated this".
Cyprian "Also in the Gospel according to Matthew: And you will call his name Emmanuel, which interpreted, "God with Us".

Hebrews 9:16-17 In the case of a will (same greek word as covenant), it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is only in force when somebody had died.
(we are told we will inherit the Kingdom of God, James 2:5, 1Corin 6:9, Heb 6:2. We will inherit God's Kingdom, and it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made the will or covenant. Who died?

If Jesus is truly begotten of the Father, without sex, then he is the substance of the Father.

aspen · Oct 8, 2010

First, God can do whatever He wills.

Secondly, Jesus humbled himself to us, not just God the Father. None of it makes sense if you are viewing the process through old testament lenses - the primary message of the OT being "God is Omnipotent!". Graciously, God completed His message to us through the humble heart of His Son - He fulfilled the law. Therefore not only are we to respond to God's greatness, we are called to follow the example He provided us through His Son - humbly submitting ourselves to God and our neighbor as servants of love. As Paul states, Jesus was the new Adam - He was divinely human and taught us how to enter into the same close relationship the first Adam had with the Father - only God could have accomplished this. Think about it, the first Adam, created perfectly human was not even able to maintain the relationship.

The only reason that God sent His divine Son to us was so that we could be reconciled to Him. Is this strange? Perhaps. But it sure is elegant.

Jesus Christ Is God!

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