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Eccl.12:13

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Contrary to what many believe, the God of the Old Testament is not the one most have come to know as God the Father. The God of the OT is in fact, Jesus Christ. But how many scriptures does it take to prove this fact? Let’s read the following scripture from the OT.

Zech.12

[10] And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

So we have the God of the OT speaking about a future time when He will be "pierced", mourned for as an "only son" and shall be in bitterness as for his "firstborn"

Convinced yet? Probably not. At least not with one verse. But how many will it take? My question to the reader is; how many holy scriptures, all saying the same thing, will it take to convince you that Jesus Christ is the God of the OT?

Will you do as we have been instructed?

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” John 5:39

“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”
1Thes.5:21

“…make full proof of thy ministry.” 2 Tim.4:5

Will you use the scriptures for correction?

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” 2 Tim.3:16

Will you allow yourself to be sanctified by God’s word?

“Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.” John 17:17
“And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.” John 17:19


Or will you ignore God’s inspired word and instructions to follow what YOU think is right?

“There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” Prov.16:25

So who is this? Let's find out. Let's see if all that God said would happen to Him actually did.

John.19

[34] But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

[37] And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. (Sounds familiar?)

Rev.1

[7] Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

So it was Jesus Christ that was "pierced". Let's read more;

John.1

[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John.3

[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It was Jesus Christ that was called the, "only begotten Son". Here is more;

Col.1

[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Rom.8

[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

And finally, it was Jesus Christ that was called the "firstborn".

Now the God of the OT said ALL of these things would happen to HIM. And as we just read, each and everything He said would happen did. Now who did ALL of these things happen to? Jesus Christ!

Now if what you read above is not enough, here is more proof that Jesus Christ is the ONLY God man has ever known, and He IS the God of the Old Testament.

Just how many times must we read it? Let's find out and read a few verses for ourselves;

John.1

[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The "him" here is Jesus Christ. Without Him was not anything made that was made. So that means the one that said, “Let there be light”, was in fact Jesus. That's ONE.

Col.1

[16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Again, the "him" here is Jesus Christ. ALL things were created by him. So who was it that made man? The same one that DIED for man; Jesus Christ. That's TWO!


Hebrews (1:1) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

(2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.

So it was "his Son" that made the worlds. That's THREE!

Ephesians (3:9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

So ALL things were created by Jesus Christ. That's FOUR!

Pss.110

[1] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Mark.12
[36] For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.


Luke 20

[41] And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son?

[44] David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?


David's Lord is now sitting on the right hand of THE Lord. And who did David call Lord? The one that is also called David’s son…Jesus Christ! That's FIVE

1Cor.10

[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
[2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
[3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
[4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


So the same God that followed the nation of Israel in the wilderness, helped them pass through the Red Sea, taught and fed them was Christ. That’s SIX!

Eph.3

[9] And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

What may have been a mystery is again cleared up by Paul. ALL things were created by Jesus Christ. That’s SEVEN!



Let’s go back to Exodus (OT) and examine a conversation Moses was having with God.

Here Moses is asking that the Lord take his name out of the Book of Life.

Exd. 32

[31] And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.

[32] Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin-; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of

thy book which thou has written.

[33] And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will

I blot out of my book.

Now let’s go to the (NT) in the book of Revelation and see who will be blotting names out of the Book of Life.

Rev. 3

[5] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white rainment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels

So it was Jesus Christ that Moses spoke to in the Old Testament and asked to blot his name out of the book of life. That’s EIGHT!

In this next passage of the (OT), Abraham is asking the Lord to spare the city of Sodom.

Gen.18

[24] Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?



[25] That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Now let’s find out who it is that will judge “…all the earth…“, and who gave him the authority. Let us go to St. John (NT) and read what Jesus has to say on the matter.

St. John 5

[22] For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgement unto the Son;

[26] For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given unto the Son to have life in himself.

[27] And hath given him authority to execute judgement also, because he is the Son of man.

So it will NOT be the Father that judges the earth. It will be His Son, Jesus Christ. Again, it was Jesus Christ that Abraham spoke to in the OT. That’s NINE!

Just how many times must we read that Jesus Christ is truly the God of the Old Testament? Examples such as these can be found throughout the entire bible, you only have to search.

Now we know NO MAN has EVER heard God the Father at anytime, because Jesus said so;

John.5

[37] And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

But SOMEONE had to say, "Let there be Light"! Let's find that someone;

John.1

[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

So when we read that Jesus was the "Word" and the “Word” was God, He literally was the God that spoke the "Words" that brought everything into existence.

Now I’m sure some reading this are saying, “Surly at some time man has come into contact with God the Father.” Well, according to the words spoken by Jesus Christ Himself…NO! Let’s read, again, what our High Priest has to say about it;

St. John 5

[37] And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

St. John 6

[46] Not that any man hath seen the Father
, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

So, along with all of the verses we just read above, we have the words of Jesus Christ telling us no man has EVER heard the voice of the Father, nor seen His shape at ANYTIME!!

Now will there ever be a time when man will come into contact with God the Father? Of course there will. Let’s read when that time will be;

Rev.21

[1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
[2] And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
[3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.


God the Father will not have any contact with us until ALL is complete and ALL are spirit beings like Himself. Which is why the scriptures says;

1Cor.15

[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,

 

Until that time, the ONLY God man will ever know is Jesus Christ.

 

Jesus Christ truly is, “… the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.” Heb.13:8





 

Simpleman

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Contrary to what many believe, the God of the Old Testament is not the one most have come to know as God the Father. The God of the OT is in fact, Jesus Christ. But how many scriptures does it take to prove this fact? Let’s read the following scripture from the OT.

As the two post are similar I’ve insert this from the thread ‘God being eternal and Jesus having a beginning’

Nowhere in scripture does it say the three are one. And even though Jesus says the Father and I are one (that doesn’t prove the trinity, it just shows the unity of two beings that have oneness of mind, a oneness of purpose) nowhere does it say God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are one.

Look at the word begotten, Isaac was begotten of Abraham, and of the same gene pool -monogenes. Abraham had a unique and close relationship with his son to the point of sacrificing him, even though he was prevented from doing so at the last minute. God the Father (interestingly nowhere does it use the term in scripture God the Son) “ gave is only begotten” as did Abraham (even though begotten of Sarah). Abraham begot Isaac as did the Father with his only begotten son. Thus Jesus and the Father have a special relationship (monogenes) that connect to the only child (as is the case of Abraham and Isaac) and through that Son God created all things. The simple fact is Jesus had a beginning, “in the beginning was the word”, God on the other hand had no beginning, so when was the beginning if God is eternal and has been here for ever? Jesus was and is an exact representation of his father and reflects the father’s qualities, but sits at Gods right hand. If your son sat at your right hand would he be you?
 

Eccl.12:13

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This too is Jesus Christ....let's read;

Heb.7
[1] For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
[2] To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
[3] Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.


Jesus Christ, Melchisedec, God of the Old Testament, all one and the same.



.
 

Simpleman

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Here is a passage taken from the old testament “The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool”

Who is talking too who? If Jesus is Lord and Yahweh is LORD and they are one of the same how does one LORD invite the other Lord to sit at his right hand? And why is there a difference in the upper and lower cases of LORD/Lord?
 

Paul

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Here is a passage taken from the old testament “The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool”

Who is talking too who? If Jesus is Lord and Yahweh is LORD and they are one of the same how does one LORD invite the other Lord to sit at his right hand? And why is there a difference in the upper and lower cases of LORD/Lord?


You really need to buy some good study tools if you are wanting to be a serious Bible student then you could have easily answered this question on your own.

Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD (H3068) said unto my Lord (H113), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

H3068
יהוה
yehôvâh
yeh-ho-vaw'
From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.

H113
אדן אדון
'âdôn 'âdôn
aw-done', aw-done'
From an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, that is, controller (human or divine): - lord, master, owner. Compare also names beginning with “Adoni-”.
 

Simpleman

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Yes I have Stongs, you’ve answered nothing, try answering the question. Is God inviting himself to sit at his own right hand?
 

Paul

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Yes I have Stongs, you’ve answered nothing, try answering the question. Is God inviting himself to sit at his own right hand?

You did not count your questions.


Here is a passage taken from the old testament “The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool”

Who is talking too who? If Jesus is Lord and Yahweh is LORD and they are one of the same how does one LORD invite the other Lord to sit at his right hand? And why is there a difference in the upper and lower cases of LORD/Lord?


My response is the answer to the last of your questions.
 

Eccl.12:13

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Let's look at the scriptures given.......

Pss. 110
[1] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Now let's look at it again....

Mark 12
[36] For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

So The Lord (God the Father) said to David's Lord (Jesus Christ) to sit at His side until His enemies were all subdued.

Now let's look at what most miss......

WHO was it that told this to David? The Holy Ghost!

Looks like the Comforter has been around for a very long time.....but NOT forever!!



.
 

Simpleman

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Let's look at the scriptures given.......

Pss. 110
[1] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Now let's look at it again....

Mark 12
[36] For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

So The Lord (God the Father) said to David's Lord (Jesus Christ) to sit at His side until His enemies were all subdued.

Now let's look at what most miss......

WHO was it that told this to David? The Holy Ghost!

Looks like the Comforter has been around for a very long time.....but NOT forever!!


I’m not sure what translation you’re using but I just checked several, they all differentiate between LORD and Lord, upper and lower cases are used. Upper case YHWH, lower case Jesus.

In addition I’m not sure what point you’re making with reference to the comforter; I assume you’re referring to the comforter as the Holy Spirit.

 

Eccl.12:13

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I’m not sure what translation you’re using but I just checked several, they all differentiate between LORD and Lord, upper and lower cases are used. Upper case YHWH, lower case Jesus.

In addition I’m not sure what point you’re making with reference to the comforter; I assume you’re referring to the comforter as the Holy Spirit.


Let's look at the scripture and leave MAN'S interpretation out of it for a while...

Jesus said the following,

St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape

St. John 6: 46 – Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

So who was it that these people saw.....?


Exod.2
10. And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they
saw God, and did eat and drink

And here...

Exd 33: 23 – And I will take mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.


And here....


Num.12
7. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all my house
8. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold:

We know it could NOT have been God the Father because if it was that would make Jesus a lier!

So who was it? The only God it could have been....

The God that made "...All things..."

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."


The God that was with God the Father in the beginning....

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God."


The God that traveled with Isreal in a pillar of cloud by day and fire by night...

Ex 13: 21-22. 21. And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to
lead them the way; and by night a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day
and night:
22. He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day nor the pillar of
fire by night, from before the people.


The God that fed them spiritual meat....

Cor 10; 1-4. 1. Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2. And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3. And did all eat the same spiritual meat;


And who was that God? Let's let God's word tell us....

4. And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Over and over, and throughout the whole bible, we are told that the God of the OT was in fact the same that came to die for our sins.....

Jesus Christ!!!!

.



 

Xanderoc

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Let's look at the scripture and leave MAN'S interpretation out of it for a while...

Jesus said the following,

St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape

St. John 6: 46 – Not that any man hath seen the Father , save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

So who was it that these people saw.....?


Exod.2
10. And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they
saw God, and did eat and drink

And here...

Exd 33: 23 – And I will take mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.


And here....


Num.12
7. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all my house
8. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold:

We know it could NOT have been God the Father because if it was that would make Jesus a lier!

So who was it? The only God it could have been....

The God that made "...All things..."

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."


The God that was with God the Father in the beginning....

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God."


The God that traveled with Isreal in a pillar of cloud by day and fire by night...

Ex 13: 21-22. 21. And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to
lead them the way; and by night a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day
and night:
22. He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day nor the pillar of
fire by night, from before the people.


The God that fed them spiritual meat....

Cor 10; 1-4. 1. Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2. And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3. And did all eat the same spiritual meat;


And who was that God? Let's let God's word tell us....

4. And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Over and over, and throughout the whole bible, we are told that the God of the OT was in fact the same that came to die for our sins.....

Jesus Christ!!!!

.




Amen!!!!! I agree with you 100% Except its Ex. 24, I know it was a typing error.
 

Mercy777

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Sep 13, 2010
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As the two post are similar I’ve insert this from the thread ‘God being eternal and Jesus having a beginning’

Nowhere in scripture does it say the three are one. And even though Jesus says the Father and I are one (that doesn’t prove the trinity, it just shows the unity of two beings that have oneness of mind, a oneness of purpose) nowhere does it say God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are one.

Look at the word begotten, Isaac was begotten of Abraham, and of the same gene pool -monogenes. Abraham had a unique and close relationship with his son to the point of sacrificing him, even though he was prevented from doing so at the last minute. God the Father (interestingly nowhere does it use the term in scripture God the Son) “ gave is only begotten” as did Abraham (even though begotten of Sarah). Abraham begot Isaac as did the Father with his only begotten son. Thus Jesus and the Father have a special relationship (monogenes) that connect to the only child (as is the case of Abraham and Isaac) and through that Son God created all things. The simple fact is Jesus had a beginning, “in the beginning was the word”, God on the other hand had no beginning, so when was the beginning if God is eternal and has been here for ever? Jesus was and is an exact representation of his father and reflects the father’s qualities, but sits at Gods right hand. If your son sat at your right hand would he be you?

Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" [ Gen. 2:7] ; the last Adam, (Jesus) a life-giving spirit.

There is only One Spirit.

John 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

John 20:28
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Isaiah 9: [sup]6[/sup] For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

God Bless,
Mercy



 

Mercy777

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Sep 13, 2010
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You did not count your questions.





My response is the answer to the last of your questions.

Here is a passage taken from the old testament “The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool”

Who is talking too who? If Jesus is Lord and Yahweh is LORD and they are one of the same how does one LORD invite the other Lord to sit at his right hand? And why is there a difference in the upper and lower cases of LORD/Lord?

He is not speaking in terms of left and right as human terms. Jesus is on the right side. Jesus is on the rightful side where he was before.





Hebrews 1:1-3 (King James Version)


1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:​
These verses indicate clearly who Jesus is and that when He sat down at the right hand of the Father in heaven He was merely returning to His rightful place which He had from all eternity before the incarnation. Though human terminology is used, the central meaning is clear. Jesus came to earth, was incarnated as a man for a specific purpose at a particular time in history. When that purpose was complete He went back to His rightful place of authority with the Father.

http://wiki.answers....d_of_the_Father



 

Mercy777

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Sep 13, 2010
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Here is a passage taken from the old testament “The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool”

Who is talking too who? If Jesus is Lord and Yahweh is LORD and they are one of the same how does one LORD invite the other Lord to sit at his right hand? And why is there a difference in the upper and lower cases of LORD/Lord?

He is not speaking in terms of left and right as human terms. Jesus is on the right side. Jesus is on the rightful side where he was before.





Hebrews 1:1-3 (King James Version)


1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:​
These verses indicate clearly who Jesus is and that when He sat down at the right hand of the Father in heaven He was merely returning to His rightful place which He had from all eternity before the incarnation. Though human terminology is used, the central meaning is clear. Jesus came to earth, was incarnated as a man for a specific purpose at a particular time in history. When that purpose was complete He went back to His rightful place of authority with the Father.

http://wiki.answers....d_of_the_Father




Also to add to this, What does it mean for God to uphold you with His right arm?
Who is righteous--Jesus.
God's righteous arm is Jesus.
Jesus is the only One who can uphold righteousness in us. In Jesus Name, the name above all names.
Looking at this in a human term--Jesus is God's right arm. Cannot be separated from God, is in use at all times with the rest of God. Is God!
 

Eccl.12:13

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Though human terminology is used, the central meaning is clear. Jesus came to earth, was incarnated as a man for a specific purpose at a particular time in history. When that purpose was complete He went back to His rightful place of authority with the Father.



Sounds like "sound" doctrine to me!

AMEN!!!