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  1. PinSeeker

    Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

    If they're "good Calvinists," yes. :) They (I) redefine absolutely nothing. They (I) may not define things the way you define those things, but that's neither here nor there, really; they are what they are. See above. That really can't be said; the only thing that can really be said is that...
  2. PinSeeker

    Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

    Well, rather, for those of us that believe anything opposite each other about anything taught in God's Word, that means one of two things, that either a) one is wrong and one is right, or b) both are wrong. These are the only possibilities. The only impossibilties are that a) both are right...
  3. PinSeeker

    Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

    Continued from above (again): LOL! Well, Ulrich Zwingli (born in Switzerland in 1484) was certainly a Reformer who believed and taught many of the same things as Martin Luther (born in Germany in 1483) ~ and, later, John Calvin (a second-generation Reformer, born in France in 1509) would ~...
  4. PinSeeker

    Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

    Continued from above: ...is a very... limited... understanding of this "knowing" in Genesis 4... and Romans 8:29. Generally speaking, it is a concrete act of the highest expression of love possible. And that's... a bit different... just a bit :) ...for human beings, as opposed to God. Isaiah...
  5. PinSeeker

    Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

    No, I'm not ignoring anything; read on... Right, which is a limited group, as I said; not everyone loves God, and likewise, not everyone is foreknown. So, the foreknowledge of God, in Paul's context, as I said, cannot be a mere cognitive foreknowledge; it has to be something very different...
  6. PinSeeker

    Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

    Right, but while inadvertent, your inescapable misconception is that it is the work of man nevertheless. Not intentionally, maybe... Absolutely, unequivocally not. Absolutely not; you are. It is not me taking faith out of Paul's statement that "by grace you have been saved through faith. And...
  7. PinSeeker

    Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

    Continued from above... Sigh. It's outward in the sense that it is administered by preachers like Peter... and John the Baptist, who says in John 1, "I baptize with water..." John's baptism ~ and no baptism administered by man (or woman) after truly washes away sin. The washing of sin is a...
  8. PinSeeker

    Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

    Again, what you say is correct, but you are understanding God's foreknowledge in a different way ~ a mere, cognitive knowing beforehand, as if God looked forward in time and saw who would choose Him and thus predestined ~ that Paul does, as should be clearly evident in what he says in Romans...
  9. PinSeeker

    Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

    Continued from above... Good, And, being convicted assured by God and convicted by the Spirit ~ given this faith ~ what do we then do? :) There are several correct answers to that question... :) Ah, so you're saying God gives everyone this saving faith, even as much as a mustard seed. If...
  10. PinSeeker

    Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

    In your opinion only. Nope. Do you understand these not to be the same thing? Born again of the Spirit? Because they are... Right, and in like manner, spiritually, the same is true: you were not spiritually alive previous to your being born spiritually, born again of the Spirit. You were...
  11. PinSeeker

    Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

    No, salvation depends on being one of God's elect, which depends on God and His mercy. I've never said otherwise. Sure. He has made promises, because the fulfillment of all those promises is His will. What He has promised He will surely do. You mean the guys to whom He directly stated, "You...
  12. PinSeeker

    Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

    Well, again, it depends on what you really mean by "cannot." :) Do you mean (either/or): 1. that he or she is woodenly unable, incapable, and thus cannot? In this case, my claim is absolutely not what you say here... 2. that he or she will not, because of his or her absolute predisposition...
  13. PinSeeker

    Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

    Yes it does... Right, so quit saying that I or any Calvinist suggests He does... LOL! Well I can't do anything to force your will, for sure... :) See what I did there? :) The first thing you say here is true, but does not necessitate the second (the in other words part). Or do you mean...
  14. PinSeeker

    Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

    Which baptism are you talking about here, JBO? :) As you know, I'm sure, John the Baptist says, "I baptize you with water for repentance, but He Who is coming after me is mightier than I, Whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire" (Matthew...
  15. PinSeeker

    Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

    So you would say God Himself was incorrect when He said, He would "cause you to walk in (His) statutes and be careful to obey (His) rules"? Hmmm... And you did. No one is denying that. Not Paul, not John Calvin, not any good Calvinist. The other way around. Again, God says, "I will put my...
  16. PinSeeker

    Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

    Well no, because I've quoted it verbatim. If you were to say 'misunderstood,' then I would agree with that in principle, but I would then say, "right back atcha." :) No, it's about God's purpose of election. The 'it' of Romans 9:16 refers directly to the individual's being of God's elect...
  17. PinSeeker

    Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

    Well, right, and they won't... until... see above. But God..." :) See Ephesians 2:4-10... Same as above... God "makes us alive..." See Ephesians 2:4-10. Ah... Okay. Yes. :) I mean, I would submit to you that we all have the right to call what is wrong, wrong... what is sin sin... even...
  18. PinSeeker

    Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

    That's... due respect... Sorry, that's the compulsive part of me... :) That's... not what I'm talking saying. But, to that point, who causes you to realize your poorness in spirit? Who is it that gives you a new spirit, putting His Spirit in you ~ whoops, I just gave it away... :) ~ and thus...
  19. PinSeeker

    Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

    Opinion noted and respected. Absolutely right, but I would certainly say that your willing yourself is a very important piece of your... getting to heaven. :) Again, with all due respect, Eternally Grateful, by saying God's purpose of election depends on your willing rather than His, and thus...
  20. PinSeeker

    Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

    In a certain way... Read on. Well, He certainly promised something, yes, but His promise was never what any of us would do but rather what He would do. After His, yes. :) And His execution, in due time, of what He had appointed. :) What you're saying, in effect, is that our being members...