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No certainly not. I didn't. I found their teachings later and it all lined up with my own theology.

What you quoted applies to you Johann. I have studied western theologies for a long long time.

I base my theology on early teachings on spirituality before Augustine who ruined the western church, but have read extremely widely regarding spirituality. You cannot just read a few of the early church teachers over a few months to grasp this spirituality.

Indeed. We are to eat of the tree of life. But when that occurs for us is the big question.

It is not making doctrine from personal experience but the guidelines are useful. I can quote loads of texts and have done so with some, but you will interpret them according to your theology and indeed your own experience. Revelation is needed.

Sorry I was not clear obviously. I meant the creation of the first man, upgraded to holiness rather than innocence, of which creation we are to be in this life not the next.

Yes Johann I thought as much. You just want to defend your indoctrination.

The church has watered this down, far away from it's logical and scriptural meaning. To be a new creation is to be made into the creation that was meant at the start, with an additional bypass of the fall and the end game of God ie eating of the tree of life. Putting that into the future is the...

I am dismayed @Johann that you have been using corrupted writings about Wesley. I suspected this myself after copious study on him and then met a Wesley scholar who told me that writings on him and his writings were corrupted. Charismatics and Pentecostals love to be able to quote him but he...

Scripture does not make some things plain to see. But we can see the stages in the lives of the first disciples. This is above proof texting. Cheers! Would have liked to talk more about cPTSD though.

Oh and by the way @Johann, I am not talking about later Wesleyism which became mixed with Pentecostalism. I noticed that you did not see the distinction somewhere else. John Wesley had nothing to do with charismania.

Yes marks, we have come to the sticking point where Protestantism is not found in early church teaching. I believe that my understanding is in accordance with their spiritual understanding of there being three stages : Purgation, Illumination and Theosis. Wesleyism gets a bit nearer. I've come a...

I have been reborn according to my understanding, 17 years after I first came to Christ..... I say that Nico was already a follower of Christ (in secret).

As Jesus told Nicodemus, physical and spiritual are separate, physical birth then spiritual birth then Spiritual rebirth.

Yes you had an encounter with Christ, and a spiritual awakening and knowledge of the truth, but to be reborn of the Spirit is the next step (re-born) makes a man to be as God intended for him + 1 that is, Adam's innocence then the part that Adam failed in - eating of the fruit of the tree of life.

@marks need time to go through this one too, but till then, why did David ask for a pure heart if it was not required under the Old Covenant? That would be his being?

Will get back tomorrow, but till then, could you put it in simple words, where you say we differ on entire sanctification that is, when it occurs and what it means.

Arriving in Tyre during his missionary journeys, Paul stayed there seven days with disciples in Tyre, "who said to Paul *through the Spirit*, that he should NOT go up to Jerusalem." So who was lying here, or getting it wrong?

@Randy Kluth The early church have written so many times that martyrdom was desired by them all. Paul knew that he would be martyred, so why the big fuss about going to Jerusalem? It makes no sense and why on earth were all of his fellows trying to stop him despite it being the will of God...

He may have told the others at the time, that it was an error. Leaving that out of scripture would be one way that God can show who has discernment and who has not, if they seek the truth of it. To them of course, as He already knows our hearts. I am coming at this from a different angle...