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When did Saddam Hussein attack the United States? I was born in 1988. But Vietnam never attacked the United States before the US invaded. I love America. But I think the government no longer represents the interests of the American people. I don't hate Israel. I hate how much influence it...

Why? Iraq - 2003. Iran - 2025. Somalia - 2025. Vietnam - 1965. Syria - ongoing. I'm not convinced that Israel is an ally. I think they're using the United States as a piggy bank to fund their wars and their ambitions to expand Israeli territory.

I agree. We bomb countries all the time that have never attacked us. That's an act of war. It's four billion dollars that could instead go towards America and helping Americans.

So really no different than an average day for me in school. When I was in the Christian school, my teacher believed in collectively punishing everyone in the class for the misdeeds of one. Well it was a bit too much like original sin to me; I did nothing wrong and I thought it was unfair. So...

You haven't expressed your opinion. You defer to a 2,000 year old dead man. I ask the other members of the forum, am I right or am I wrong? You say that God decides who the political leaders are. I say, why should we vote then? To which you say we have "limited freewill". What the hell does...

What do you think is wrong?

Nothing has happened to me. We are having a discussion. You asked earlier if the cat had my tongue. Now I return and you think there's something wrong.

But if I want your opinion, I'm out of luck. Why? That's an opinion no one asked for. God's will can be thwarted by mere mortals. Imagine that. Because I actually dare to have one. I don't just defer to some 2,000 year old dead scribe. It matters enough to be judged, does it not? Easy for...

That's Paul's opinion, not yours. But did their rejection thwart God's will? There's no such thing. Then scripture is wrong. It means very little without freewill.

Sure, in the reverse. Mass immigration. I would vote against it. Universal healthcare for Americans I would vote for.

Right. Because apparently you can't speak for yourself even when asked for your personal opinion. A mechanism that doesn't work if God's will is fulfilled regardless. Remind me again how I have freewill. God's will matters more than your freewill. Got it. That's correct. I value my freewill...

Matthias... you're wearing me out now. It was you that said God chooses the rulers of various countries. So by what mechanism can I challenge God's will? Right. But iut all hinges on whether or not my vote matters more than God's will. Do you understand where I'm coming from?

Except in the realm of politics it seems. I don't get to choose my leaders. That's what you're telling me. Why should I vote then?

Okay. So there's no freewill then. Why pretend otherwise?

I know. I'm not trying to diminish his character, in just making a point. Look, you either have freewill or you don't. You're either a slave or you're not. There's no in between, Matthias.

But anybody can be inspired by God to write something. It's technically a violation of our freewill. That's my main contention.

Inspired by and written by are two different things. God interferes in our elections. If he ever comes back, I think he should be placed under arrest. :funlaugh2

God's not saying anything. He didn't write the Bible; human beings wrote the Bible. However, I can see why political leaders would love this verse in particular. There's nothing "behind the scenes" about it. You said God puts these despots in power.

So... God put Hitler in power knowing he would invade Poland in 1939, kicking off a world war that would take the lives of millions? Moral issues aside, how does this not violate humanity's freewill if God is rigging elections? :IDK: