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Don't you believe in the incarnation, the birth of Jesus, when the eternal Son took on a body as the God-man? Are you questioning the doctrine of the Trinity, one God in 3 persons? Is this your challenge to us?

Earburner, Do you know and understand Greek grammar? What are the meanings of the definite articles in Rev 7:14, καὶ εἴρηκα αὐτῷ· Κύριέ μου, σὺ οἶδας. καὶ εἶπέν μοι· Οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης, καὶ ἔπλυναν τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν καὶ ἐλεύκαναν αὐτὰς ἐν τῷ αἵματι τοῦ ἀρνίου...

Enoch, 'Οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης' (Rev 7:14) is literally translated 'these are the (ones) coming out of the tribulation, the great'. ἐρχόμενοι (erchomenoi) is a present tense, middle voice, participle that presents the idea of continuing or repeated coming out...

What is the meaning of ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης in Revelation 7:14?

I'm not referring to people who will be on the earth but to those who are raptured near the end of history. The rapture is based on the verb harpazw which means to 'snatch or take away ... in such a way that no resistance is offered' in 1 Thess 4:17 (Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich Greek-English...

You refuse to deal with the evidence I provide from Scripture to push your own agenda.

n2thelight, I think you are 'farfromlight' on this one. That is not what these verses in 1 Thess 4 state. Simply put, the rapture is what happens at Christ’s second coming when believers are caught up to meet the Lord in the air (their bodies are presently in the grave as dust), particularly...

Davy, Of course, harpazw does not always mean rapture to heaven as in the example you gave of Philip. However, it does mean 'snatch or take away ... in such a way that no resistance is offered' in 1 Thess 4:17 (Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich Greek-English Lexicon 1957:108). It's like the English word...

Davy, Since when was the KJV of the Bible the confirmed and authorised way for determining the meaning of harpazw and all other Greek words? Harpazw means 'snatch or take away ... in such a way that no resistance is offered' in 1 Thess 4:17 (Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich Greek-English Lexicon...

I know that this writing by Ephraem (AD 306 – 373) of Nisibis has not been confirmed as genuine. However, the pre-trib rapture was around at that time. It didn't have to wait until the 19th century to be promoted by J N Darby. You have missed links to writings of early church fathers supporting...

Enoch, You need to supply biblical evidence to support your assertions here. In my post at #54 I provided links to some early church fathers who supported pre-trib. However, for you to state that "all the apostolic churches were taught about a pre-tribulation Rapture" without supporting...

Davy, Where did you get the idea that I supported a pre-trib rapture? I don't. I've read and digested Dave MacPherson's documentation but I'd hardly call it 'scholarly' when he missed the fact that pre-trib rapture was taught way back in the 4th century. Ephraem (AD 306 – 373) of Nisibis, was...

I think it would be better to follow up your observation with some solid research into Reformed and dispensationalist views on dichotomy vs. trichotomy.

Do you have researched evidence that is so?

For this Fijian rugby league player, Kevin Naigama, he uses it as a witness to his mates, See his back tatoo HERE. On his chest John 3:16 is tatooed: Oz

That's what I tried to convey to Davy but I failed to communicate that clearly enough. The word, 'Bible', is not in the Bible but the concept of the canonicity of these books as the Bible is.

Davy, I have a PhD in New Testament from an accredited university and I have taught NT Greek at college level (now retired). I didn't come down in the last shower of exegesis. I suggest you do some further study on the rapture of the church as the view goes way back further than J N Darby and...

Davy, It's not unusual to use an English word to explain something not stated in that way in the Bible. Trinity is one such word. The word, Bible, is nowhere in Scripture. Pre-tribers support tribulation saints as those born again during the Great Tribulation, after the church has been...

HIH, A simpler explanation of 1 Thess 5:23: Let’s examine Heb 4:12 (NIV): ‘For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart’. This verse states...

HIH, 1 Thessalonians 5:23 (ESV): ‘Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ’. This verse is not an easy one to interpret for some of the following reasons. I’ll do my best. I...