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This whole salvation status thing is of men not God. People are led to believe that they do good because they are saved. But this is only a half-truth and mostly backwards. Most believers do good from their own power...like everyone else. Since there is no imputed salvation status, people...

That is a religious formula you have been taught to believe. God does not demand we believe that Jesus died for them. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. The whole world doesn't need to believe that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world....for Jesus to die for their sins. So you...

There's a lot more to it than that. Repentance is never "secured" for all time. We need to learn humility...a new humility to add to the new growth. This is real life and anything is possible. We are just human after all. How is that not a false assurance? A baby can go a lot of different...

Actually God calls us away from iniquity. You are making it sound like the beginning is the end. But a new birth gives us a new potential for growth into the likeness of Christ. But there is no guarantee of that. We are in a race...not a free coronation. They who claim salvation at the beginning...

We all need to work out...iron out...live out...our own contradictions. Then we can be non-conflicted in our lives and views. Jung said...Paradoxical views that are not made conscious will be played out in the world as fate. I can't respond to more than how much you presented in the OP. But...

Exactly. And the OP mainly makes this point. We can't expect the story to inform everything about us....because the application of that story to our own lives needs to be applied with wisdom...and the Spirit. We are not God...and neither are we Paul...although so many read Paul with such a...

Some people may think that a totalitarian outlook (convert and be like us or die) was inevitable for Christendom...that somehow the narrative of the bible implies this. And a certain argument can indeed be brought forth that at times the scriptures would seem to support such a worldview. But...

I seek balance...because in the end the universe seeks balance. In the days of the development of the A bomb, some weren't sure if the spitting of the atom wouldn't destroy all life on earth. But the power of balance in the world is very strong. We would do well to keep a balanced view or else...

This is not about having grace...but about extending grace. If we have received grace then we also need to extend it. And we can do this a lot better if we don't have a totalitarian doctrinal stance. We can receive a righteous man in the name of a righteous man. And we can also ...on the...

True! But that is a sword that cuts both ways. Sometimes the novice can see things that careful traditional study can't even imagine. It the question of openness over agenda.

The all-sufficiency of a book? How dare you elevate the bible over God and His presence. I see you that ridiculous reaction and raise that to an even more ridiculous level.;)

Islam says...believe or die. And that means now and some are very willing to kill you if you don't convert. Christianity has the same attitude towards conversion...just not the same methods in that regard. Convert or die is still based upon the idea of conversion to what WE accept as the...

It should be remembered that every move of God in history was based on a living prophet...not just a book. We now have a book but no one to give us the actual words from God. There is a famine in the land...not of bibles...but of actual words from God intervening in our lives with power to...

Or could it be that the doctrinal stance of the translator affects the translation? Or the limited or non-existent understanding of a particular text? If non-spiritual men translate a mysterious sounding verse...or even a seeming error in their estimation...will they translate it to the best...

I think this shift has already happened "fundamentally"....pun intended. We become what we hate...we use the ways of our enemies to fight them...violence for violence...rather than loving them and preserving our ways.

What I haven't heard commentary on is how Judaism has a better more graceful approach to the problem of they who are not of the same faith. Judaism allows for righteousness outside their faith. This is huge. And this smacks of grace...rather than law. Could Christianity then just be the foil...

Great post. It is when we think we understand the plain meaning of the bible, and have already met it's conditions, that the subversion of the truth begins. That is where the danger lies. People sit in a pew to listen to an indoctrinating message that subverts the truth at least partway...and...

I think you are trying to bog down the thread. Why don't you read it and post an argument or two that debunks the position I made in the OP. The best way to counter an argument is not with a strawman position...but the opposite...trying to find the best argument to refute (the steel man) Now...

If I'm talking about apples and someone keeps talking about rebirth and how that relates to apples I think one of two things. 1 They just experience rebirth and can only see that for now...in immaturity 2. They have been indoctrinated so thouroughly that EVERYTHING has to do with that status...

Of course. The Jewish tradition allows for the "Sod" (secret) level of meaning in the text. The secret of the Lord is with them that fear Him. i suggest you do a study on secrets in the bible...as in it is the glory of God to hide a word...but the glory of kings to search it out... We are to...