“This Cup”!

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Netchaplain

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[Note] The intention of this article is to express the depth of the Lord Jesus’ willingness to relate with us concerning the infirmity of all our trials in this life!


Was Jesus’ cry of desertion on the Cross a manifestation of Him actually being “forsaken” by the Father, or could it have been to show how far He went to “be touched with the feeling of our infirmities” (Heb 4:15)? Though this issue carries no essential doctrine for receiving salvation, I’ve come to find it interesting to attempt a determination in considering whether of the two might be most likely. Myself, the latter seems more than a little possible, considering all that was involved with “this cup,” which first began in the “garden” when He admitted to Peter, James and John that He had become “exceedingly sorrowful” and sought their support in being on “watch” with Him (Mat 26:37; 38, 40).

Even though an angel appeared to Jesus, “to strengthen Him” (Luk 22:42) following His first request to determine some other way than “this cup,” He was still in agony upon His second request, “sweating as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground” (v 44). During His arrest He also knew He would be enduring the hardness of knowing the sorrow (after His third prayer request - Mat 26:44) His Apostles would encounter after forsaking Him” (Mat 26:56; Jhn 16:20, 22); which was to fulfill the prophecy that “I will smite the Shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad” (Zec 13:7; Mat 26:31).

Including all this, and that which the Lord Jesus endured from the “garden” to the time of beginning His walk with the Cross—to the time of His death, I wouldn’t consider it inordinate to entertain the thought that it was possible that allowing Himself (Jhn 19:11) to be overcome with so great excruciating infirmity resulted in His feeling of abandonment concerning His Apostles and His Father.

Considering that the Father and the Son are inseparable (Jhn 8:16, 29); and that there’s nothing that the Father hasn’t already known and seen with His omniscience, including all of the sin in the world (Prov 15:3; Jer 16:17; Heb 4:13), there remains little, in my opinion, to conceive that God was so moved (as it were) that He could not continue to look upon His Son, despite the depth that Christ achieved being “compassed with infirmity” (Heb 5:2) and “exceeding sorrow, even unto death” (Mat 26:38)! Yet, through all this His encouraging final words were, “It is finished.” “Father, into thy hands I commend My Spirit” (Jhn 19:30; Luk 23:46).


“Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave Me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me” (Jhn 16:32).
 
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justbyfaith

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The sufferings of Christ do pertain to what we would consider to be doctrine as concerning salvation.
 

Mantis

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I have asked pastors why he said "Why have you forsaken me" and have never got a satisfying answer. I personally believe that he felt the Father turn away from him, he felt him forsake him or leave him. Even though it was just for a time it may have felt like an eternity. The amount of stress it takes for the body sweat blood is tremendous. Hematidrosis is caused when blood vessels rupture under intense stress - physical, psychological, or both.
 
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Netchaplain

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I have asked pastors why he said "Why have you forsaken me" and have never got a satisfying answer. I personally believe that he felt the Father turn away from him, he felt him forsake him or leave him. Even though it was just for a time it may have felt like an eternity. The amount of stress it takes for the body sweat blood is tremendous. Hematidrosis is caused when blood vessels rupture under intense stress - physical, psychological, or both.
Hi and thanks for your input! I'm not convinced that the Father might not know what to expect that He had to literally "forsake" His Son, considering "it pleased the LORD to bruise Him" (Isa 53:10).
 

Mantis

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Hi and thanks for your input! I'm not convinced that the Father might not know what to expect that He had to literally "forsake" His Son, considering "it pleased the LORD to bruise Him" (Isa 53:10).
I think he very well knew what to expect but I think that Jesus' experience may have been horrendous. He felt what it is like to be forsaken by the father.

It's like we have the protecting hand of the father on us and if he takes it away the evil moves in to destroy relentlessly. His hand is the only thing keeping it at bay. I have felt the father move away in anger towards me and I don't like it one bit!
 

Enoch111

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Was Jesus’ cry of desertion on the Cross a manifestation of Him actually being “forsaken” by the Father, or could it have been to show how far He went to “be touched with the feeling of our infirmities” (Heb 4:15)?
If we cannot take that cry in its plain literal sense, then there is a very definite problem with out understanding of the crucifixion and the finished work of Christ.
 

Netchaplain

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I think he very well knew what to expect but I think that Jesus' experience may have been horrendous. He felt what it is like to be forsaken by the father.
Whether or not God actually abandoned Him, it is true that the Lord Jesus knew what is was like to feel He was abandoned and completely alone. But He also knew He was returning to the Father, and everything it meant for those who are His.
 

Wrangler

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Was Jesus’ cry of desertion on the Cross a manifestation of Him actually being “forsaken” by the Father, or could it have been to show how far He went to “be touched with the feeling of our infirmities” (Heb 4:15)?

Does it have to be either one or the other?
 

Grailhunter

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I have asked pastors why he said "Why have you forsaken me" and have never got a satisfying answer. I personally believe that he felt the Father turn away from him, he felt him forsake him or leave him. Even though it was just for a time it may have felt like an eternity. The amount of stress it takes for the body sweat blood is tremendous. Hematidrosis is caused when blood vessels rupture under intense stress - physical, psychological, or both.

One thing for sure, He was not talking to Himself.
 
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Wrangler

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One thing for sure, He was not talking to Himself.

Another thing for sure is Jesus lacked important knowledge about this process.

When I first got into reading the Bible, I read John's Gospel 3 times in 4 months. Each time the anxiety was worse than the time before as the story approached the crucifixion. A big part of me wanted to stop or prevent it. It was AS IF I could accomplish this by putting the book down and not reading on.

I know others may opine theologically. For me, it was a personal experience of compassion and grave injustice. It makes me feel profound shame that my short comings led to that.
 
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Netchaplain

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If we cannot take that cry in its plain literal sense, then there is a very definite problem with out understanding of the crucifixion and the finished work of Christ.
Hi and appreciate your comments! Just would like to add that is was the Father who was “pleased to bruise Him” and “put Him to grief,” in order to “make His soul an offering for sin” (Isa 53:10). Zechariah 13:7 prophesied that God’s “sword” came “against His Shepherd, against the Man that was His Fellow, and the sheep shall be scattered.”
 

Jostler

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Jesus experienced the second death, just as Adam did when he sinned. Utter, complete spiritual deafness to the presence and person of the Father. He endured the first death of His flesh shortly after and spent three days enduring both, in Hades...
Trapped, unable to get out. Utterly cut off from God. He endured every last drug of the punishment we deserved...
The greatest injustice , perfection sacrificed, satisfied God's righteous demand for justice against sin. He paid our bill...
 

Taken

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My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?

Remember, those were the same words from Psalms.

Psalms 22:
1 (a) [1] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
1 (b) why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Jesus' arrivial on Earth (in the LIKENESS AS a man)...was mankinds Example, of HOW a (created) Earthly was being OFFERED a WAY to become (made) a spiritual man, WHILE STILL alive in his flesh.

An earthly (Faithfully, Heartfully, Believing man,) still feels, Physical Pain, Emotional Pain, Distress, and naturally cries out to He (God) in whom the man BELIEVES and TRUSTS.

IMO- When Jesus "cried" out;
"My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me..."
He did several things:
1) Fulfilled (Psalms 22:1)
2) Revealed His understanding (by mimicking) of how earthly men have an expectation that God will answer men, on a mans "time schedule".
3)
Revealed His Faith, in God..
Calling expressly to God.
4) Revealed God "REQUIRES" Death, Before, God can Restore a man.
Thus fulfilled (Gen 5:9)
5) What God sent Jesus to accomplish,
(Fulfilled Isa 55:11)

Jesus Accomplished.
(Fulfilled John 19:28)
(Fulfilled John 19:30)

The Spirit of God IS ALWAYS IN A Converted man...Yet in our flesh, we can feel terribly alone in times of Distress, Pain, Sorrow...

God Does not LEAVE US, He takes us "THROUGH" the Distress, in such a manner, we experience the Distress momentarily, moving on to Enjoy the Peace for ever.

My Understanding,
Glory to God,
Taken
 

Netchaplain

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Jesus' arrivial on Earth (in the LIKENESS AS a man)...was mankinds Example, of HOW a (created) Earthly was being OFFERED a WAY to become (made) a spiritual man, WHILE STILL alive in his flesh.
Hi and thanks for the interesting comments! I agree, He was revealing how we are to live in this life ("walk as He walked" - 1Jo 2:6), and He was also revealing how Christians will be in the next life: new body, no sin nature, "partakers of the (His) divine nature" (2Pe 1:4) which is our new man or new nature, "created in righteousness and true holiness" (Eph 4:24);"which is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created him (it, new nature - Col 3:10).

At the resurrection we shall finally be exactly like Him in every way except Deity, because "when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is (
1Jo 3:2), but presently we are "as He is" (1Jo 4:17) concerning our sonship with the Father in Him.

An earthly (Faithfully, Heartfully, Believing man,) still feels, Physical Pain, Emotional Pain, Distress, and naturally cries out to He (God) in whom the man BELIEVES and TRUSTS.
The Spirit of God IS ALWAYS IN A Converted man...Yet in our flesh, we can feel terribly alone in times of Distress, Pain, Sorrow...

God Does not LEAVE US, He takes us "THROUGH" the Distress, in such a manner, we experience the Distress momentarily, moving on to Enjoy the Peace for ever.
Our difficulties cause us to exercise faith in God for all our needs. The more He shows us our sin nature, the more we see His holiness, and God no longer regards us after the sin nature (the flesh - Rom 8:9).
 
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Taken

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Precisely.
Jesus came in "our likeness"... to teach us, while in our "Likeness"... we CAN have a monumental and meaningful relationship with A Holy Spirit...Our Lord God Almighty.

A pretty Amazing Offer...considering the world full of men desperately trying BY every conceiveably underhanded notion to control every man on this Earth...that NOT One man, can Stop any man, from having a Rock Solid Sealed Forever Relationship with the Lord God Almighty.

A pretty Powerful Freewill gift every man has.
Too bad so many don't know, what power they have over ... any TO try to oppress them.
 

theefaith

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[Note] The intention of this article is to express the depth of the Lord Jesus’ willingness to relate with us concerning the infirmity of all our trials in this life!


Was Jesus’ cry of desertion on the Cross a manifestation of Him actually being “forsaken” by the Father, or could it have been to show how far He went to “be touched with the feeling of our infirmities” (Heb 4:15)? Though this issue carries no essential doctrine for receiving salvation, I’ve come to find it interesting to attempt a determination in considering whether of the two might be most likely. Myself, the latter seems more than a little possible, considering all that was involved with “this cup,” which first began in the “garden” when He admitted to Peter, James and John that He had become “exceedingly sorrowful” and sought their support in being on “watch” with Him (Mat 26:37; 38, 40).

Even though an angel appeared to Jesus, “to strengthen Him” (Luk 22:42) following His first request to determine some other way than “this cup,” He was still in agony upon His second request, “sweating as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground” (v 44). During His arrest He also knew He would be enduring the hardness of knowing the sorrow (after His third prayer request - Mat 26:44) His Apostles would encounter after forsaking Him” (Mat 26:56; Jhn 16:20, 22); which was to fulfill the prophecy that “I will smite the Shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad” (Zec 13:7; Mat 26:31).

Including all this, and that which the Lord Jesus endured from the “garden” to the time of beginning His walk with the Cross—to the time of His death, I wouldn’t consider it inordinate to entertain the thought that it was possible that allowing Himself (Jhn 19:11) to be overcome with so great excruciating infirmity resulted in His feeling of abandonment concerning His Apostles and His Father.

Considering that the Father and the Son are inseparable (Jhn 8:16, 29); and that there’s nothing that the Father hasn’t already known and seen with His omniscience, including all of the sin in the world (Prov 15:3; Jer 16:17; Heb 4:13), there remains little, in my opinion, to conceive that God was so moved (as it were) that He could not continue to look upon His Son, despite the depth that Christ achieved being “compassed with infirmity” (Heb 5:2) and “exceeding sorrow, even unto death” (Mat 26:38)! Yet, through all this His encouraging final words were, “It is finished.” “Father, into thy hands I commend My Spirit” (Jhn 19:30; Luk 23:46).


“Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave Me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me” (Jhn 16:32).

refers to the Passover:

Eucharist

Genesis 14:18
And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

Matthew 26:26
And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

Mark 14:22
And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.

Luke 22:19
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1 Corinthians 11:24
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna,

John ch. 6

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mosaic precedent:

Exodus 12

3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:

4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.

5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.

8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.

9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.

10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.

11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord's passover.

12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord.

13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.




Offering of the liturgy!
The holy sacrifice of Jesus Christ!
Luke 22:19 “do this in memory of me”!
 

theefaith

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The Passover
(The new covenant Passover sacrifice of Christ)

“It is finished” not the redemptive work of Christ but the Passover sacrifice!

The cup refers to the Passover
The sacrifice prefigured the sacrifice of Christ
Christ was celebrating the Passover and changing it into the new covenant Passover in his own body and blood
Began in the last supper with the psalm then to the garden and ended with his death in the cross with the words commanded to be said at the consummation of the Passover sacrifice by the high priest “IT IS FINISHED”!!!

jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1 cor 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

1 cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
Notice the connection to his betrayal and death

1 cor 5:6-8
For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast

So
The Passover
(The new covenant Passover sacrifice of Christ)


The cup refers to the Passover
The sacrifice prefigured the sacrifice of Christ
Christ was celebrating the Passover and changing it into the new covenant Passover in his own body and blood
Began in the last supper with the psalm then to the garden and ended with his death in the cross with the words commanded to be said at the consummation of the Passover sacrifice by the high priest “IT IS FINISHED”!!!

jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1 cor 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

1 cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
Notice the connection to his betrayal and death

1 cor 5:6-8
For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast

So the it in “it is finished” is not the work of redemption but the Passover sacrifice!

but something is missing we have to eat the lamb

jn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

“It is finished” the Passover sacrifice!
Consummation of the new Passover or the beginning of the new and eternal covenant!