1 John 3 (cont)

[marks]

@marks

I am remembering now the to and fro's we used to have about the flesh and you saying that the inner man is free even when the outer man, is sinning - unintentionally of course. I hope I got that right. This idea was condemned at some time.

I will try again to explain my understanding which is incidently, that of the followers of the doctrine of holiness .

Flesh is everything that is not of God. That means our religious flesh too, which is basically using our wills or human strength to obey God, when we have the power of God there for us, to be imparted to us.

Just because we are more moral than in the past, is due rather to the natural result of us expecting to improve from reading scripture and mixing with morally improved people . There is some power of there of course but nothing like it could or should be. We know that it is by faith alone that we come into relationship with Christ, we cannot get there by works despite what others are saying :)

But we were created to be united with God, totally healed of the effects of sin, to live a life of holiness and absolute obedience, which will bring us into the sort of lives that saints lived in the past. A life of miracles. A life where people around us will be affected greatly like in Wales during the revivals where pubs had to shut their doors and coal mine owners had all sorts of stolen goods returned. This was due to the unbelievers too being impacted because of the presence of God in their communities.

There will be a process of being dealt with first and it is usually a tough one lasting years, but we will reach a point where the baptism will fall, if we have been listening to God and obeying.

If we are saved we will never have a doubt whereas, if not and not too hardened, we will now and again wonder if indeed we are saved but quickly push it away. If we accept it as possible and wait on God, we will be blessed, even though it will blow up previous beliefs.

While I describe in different words, this is still a lot of how I understand things.

Regarding the flesh and the inner man, I echo what Paul wrote,

Romans 7:21-25 KJV
21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

While the body remains corrupted by sin, it is no longer our default master, as we are freed from it's power in Christ.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

From what I can see, it seems to be a mixture of flesh and spirit.

It is in the beginning when we start on our journey. Our flesh is still active in us but putting it to death gradually is not what we need and in fact no-one has a testimony of this. We need to accept that the old man is crucifed and totally out of action in order to progress, which was already done on the cross and our part is to consent which we do when our whole walk is put under the spotlight, usually in a crisis, when the words of Jonathan come to us 'you are that man' whereas before we thought that we were putting everything in to it, trying our hardest.

By the way cessationsists do not deny the working of the Spirit today in healing etc they just say that tongues was a sign of the new covenant starting.

 

[Hepzibah]

While I describe in different words, this is still a lot of how I understand things.

Regarding the flesh and the inner man, I echo what Paul wrote,

Romans 7:21-25 KJV
21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

While the body remains corrupted by sin, it is no longer our default master, as we are freed from it's power in Christ.

Much love!

This is the main difference between us - your interpretation of Romans 7 which is not the early one in the church by the way. This says that Paul was already a follower of Christ and therefore loved the law in his inner man, but struggled due to his flesh still not being in its crucified position which takes place at the end of the crisis (25) when he praises God. I will look at my files and see if I wrote on this earlier.

 

[Hepzibah]

Interpreting Romans 7.

There have been two interpretations of Romans 7 which have dominated church history and which are sometimes known as the Primitive and the Post-Primitive. Augustine held to the Primitive in his early years, as did some of the Church Fathers and writers before Augustine, but changed his stance later. The reason that he changed was due to his heated discourses with Pelagius. There have been two interpretations widely held since Augustine, the original and the one from Augustine called the Post Primitive which did not exist before he adopted and popularised it. The third, was held by Pelagius and claims that sinlessness is possible in this life.

We must conclude that the man depicted in Romans 7 is a) a man who has only just come to Christ for forgiveness and has attempted previously to be righteous through obeying the law, (or as commonly known as an unbeliever) and the Primitive view, b) the normal state of a Christian which is held by Calvinists in the main and brought in by Augustine and c) the believer who has come to the crisis in his faith and inability to keep God’s law in the manner that he knows he must, whereby he will be delivered from the body of sin to the state where there is no more condemnation, the view which became widespread during the ‘Celtic period’, and Holiness Movement of the 19th C. There is no other viable interpretation of these texts.

The Primitive view and the one which is widely held today for example by many Arminians, is that Romans 7 describes the salvation experience and Paul is writing as an unregenerate soul. Augustine said: “It is understood that man here described who was never under grace” (Homilies). This is the view that Augustine held until Pelagius challenged him over his view that man is totally depraved.


“In his argument, Pelagius referred to the passage under consideration, saying that this was a palpable case in which, by the universal assent of the church, the state and character of the unregenerate man is described. He then asked, if approving the right, and hating the wrong, and 'delighting in the law of God' did not imply that there was something good even in such a man? Augustine could not deny the fact, the case being so palable, of the universal agreement of the church in the deduction that it was the unregenerate man referred to in the passage; nor did he perceive how, admitting the correctness of the universally received exposition, he could meet the argument of his opponent. Under such perplexity, Augustine denied the validity of his own and the universal, and adopted the few and before, unheard of, exposition, a most needless resort and a most calamitous one for the spiritual good of the church” (J Schmidz Romans 7)

Augustine did not accept Pelagius’ argument and agree with his interpretation. Pelagius was trying to show Augustine that Romans 7 was not to be understood as the so called Primitive view but the Apostolic view. Augustine realised his first view was untenable that Paul described the unregenerate but the second view was untenable for Augustine because it says that man can stop sinning.

Pelagius taught the Apostolic view which is that Paul is speaking about the Christian in Romans 7 but not in what should be his normal condition. Those who do not accept the view that it is a Christian speaking point to the fact that there is no mention of grace or of the work of the Holy Spirit in the chapter. But this is not because there is no Holy Spirit or grace. Far from it. The opposite is true actually. However, the person describing it is not aware of it. It seems as though God has deserted actually, as the person comes to an extreme point because God has convicted the man of his sinfulness. Paul is discussing experience here not doctrine. He came to a point of time when he saw himself as God saw him as he sought acceptance through the works of the law. And all Christians seek to do this unless they adopt Augustine’s position and excuse their sin. and until they come to the point whereby they admit their powerlessness.

The misunderstanding of the early writers teachings in saying that Romans 7 is the unregenerate person could be that some meant an unregenerate person as a believer who has not arrived at the sanctification experience, which was what Wesley meant by the 'Almost Christian' In the Bible, salvation sanctification and justification are all one event but describing the differing aspects of it. This could means that one is not really saved until they are entirely sanctified. Jesus came to save us from our sins and until this is done, then we are still in them and not saved even though we have been given 'The power to become the son's of God' as a possibility but not yet an actuality until the provision of sanctification through the cross, is appropriated by man and he is delivered from not just the penalty from sin but also the power and the presence.

This Apostolic view has been rejected by most of the church through the ages and the reason why Pelagius has had such bad press. By his dispute with Augustine and his understanding of Romans 7, he did not teach that the Christian could stop sinning on his own accord. Far from it. It needed the divine interaction of God to bring about the change or deliverance needed to get Paul from Romans7 to Romans 8.

 

[marks]

This is the main difference between us - your interpretation of Romans 7 which is not the early one in the church by the way. This says that Paul was already a follower of Christ and therefore loved the law in his inner man, but struggled due to his flesh still not being in its crucified position which takes place at the end of the crisis (25) when he praises God. I will look at my files and see if I wrote on this earlier.

It hinges on where Paul says "it is therefore no more I, but sin that lives in me."

Much love!

 

[marks]

but struggled due to his flesh still not being in its crucified position which takes place at the end of the crisis (25) when he praises God. I will look at my files and see if I wrote on this earlier.

While he describes this situation, we should not suppose that he lacked the solution at that time. Recognizing the corruption of his flesh, and that he has been separated from his flesh by death, does not require that he still struggles to get victory.

Though it is clear that Paul did not consider whether he was in fact sinless, as he left that judgment to Jesus, as he describes in 1 Corinthians 4.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

It hinges on where Paul says "it is therefore no more I, but sin that lives in me."

Much love!

Indeed he reached a point where he knew he was powerless against unintentional sin.

 

[Hepzibah]

Though it is clear that Paul did not consider whether he was in fact sinless, as he left that judgment to Jesus, as he describes in 1 Corinthians 4.

King James Bible
Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe: 1Thes 2:10

 

[marks]

Indeed he reached a point where he knew he was powerless against unintentional sin.

I don't think that is what this says.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

I don't think that is what this says.

Much love!

Oh wretched man that I am!

 

[marks]

King James Bible
Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe: 1Thes 2:10

Does he here state that he was sinless? Or that they knew to what degree they observed from him? I don't think Paul wrote this contradicting himself,

1 Corinthians 4:3-5 KJV
3) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4) For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Oh wretched man that I am!

Romans 7:24-25 KJV
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

Does he here state that he was sinless? Or that they knew to what degree they observed from him? I don't think Paul wrote this contradicting himself,

1 Corinthians 4:3-5 KJV
3) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4) For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Much love!

Yes God by the Holy Spirit had judged him and given him assurance. When the Lord comes is at His baptism with the Spirit when all will be made known.

I think his words are pretty much clear.

 

[Hepzibah]

So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

He is confirming that he has been deceived.

 

[marks]

When the Lord comes is at His baptism with the Spirit when all will be made known.

Romans 6:3-4 KJV
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Ephesians 4:4-6 KJV
4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

Romans 6:3-4 KJV
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Ephesians 4:4-6 KJV
4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Much love!

One baptism, into His death where the flesh is crucifed and we are tranlated into the spiritual realm where all things are made known and we are new creatures. This is when He comes again in this life - first encounter at conversion. Then we are given the power to BECOME the sons of God but are not yet.

 

[Hepzibah]

Does he here state that he was sinless? Or that they knew to what degree they observed from him? I don't think Paul wrote this contradicting himself,

1 Corinthians 4:3-5 KJV
3) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4) For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Much love!

Just to add, that it is assurance of salvation that we are given when delivered from sin, more than assurance of sinlessness. Both are the same. That is a first time revelation of that for me so thanks for the to and fro! We are saved by baptism (Spirit kind).

 

[Lizbeth]

It is in the beginning when we start on our journey. Our flesh is still active in us but putting it to death gradually is not what we need and in fact no-one has a testimony of this. We need to accept that the old man is crucifed and totally out of action in order to progress, which was already done on the cross and our part is to consent which we do when our whole walk is put under the spotlight, usually in a crisis, when the words of Jonathan come to us 'you are that man' whereas before we thought that we were putting everything in to it, trying our hardest.

By the way cessationsists do not deny the working of the Spirit today in healing etc they just say that tongues was a sign of the new covenant starting.

Think we could both be right in a way....? The chastisements, trials and tribs take place over time and are "so that we may partake of His holiness". I have a testimony of the Lord tearing down the things and illusions that I used to rely on to get by in life, things that used to BE my life in a way but aren't any more.... and that is what I'm thinking of in terms of my old man dying a slow death ...the Lord making us weak in ourselves so that His strength can be perfected in our weakness......and I believe it is leading to when the old man is so weak it will finally be dead, or reckoned to be so, and laid on the altar wholesale. Maybe we are just thinking of things in different words, and I often find it hard to express things in a way that takes into account both sides of the coin at the same time.

It is a process/preparation that is leading to the culmination or consummation, might be another way of saying it. And I think Job is a picture. His life was burned to ashes, everything taken away from him one by one so to speak.......until finally he saw the Lord face to face and then restoration (resurrection life) took place. Losing our life in order to find it. Happens in an instant but there was process that led to that instant.....?

Anyway it sure is nice to be able to discuss these things peaceably with you. :)

 

[Hepzibah]

It is a process/preparation that is leading to the culmination or consummation, might be another way of saying it.

Amen!

Anyway it sure is nice to be able to discuss these things peaceably with you. :)

I know what you mean lol

 

[Hepzibah]

Just to add, that it is assurance of salvation that we are given when delivered from sin, more than assurance of sinlessness. Both are the same. That is a first time revelation of that for me so thanks for the to and fro! We are saved by baptism (Spirit kind).

There is a huge difference though which you cannot but fail to notice. In an instant you are given a pure heart and hence forth, unless you fall from it, you do not have any thoughts that are ungodly. It is not like you get them but ignore them or cut them out. They do not happen.

The human mind cannot get around this, it is so out of this world. All you can do is sing praises to the Lord constantly.