Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[1stCenturyLady]

Back to topic, 1 John is a hard nut to crack if you read / understand it literally, actually then John would contradict himself several times.

1Joh 3:8 - He that committeth sin is of the devil;
1Joh 1:10 - If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Contradiction ?

Not at all! We all grew up with a sin nature of darkness. If you say you didn't you are a liar.

It is only Jesus that can cleanse your sin nature and make it clean. Then and only then can you say you are free from sin and it not be a lie. Understand?

 

[Episkopos]

Teaching that Sinners (*The Elect)...

"Jesus came into the world to save Sinners... (The Elect)...

So, if you teach that a saved sinner (The Elect).... can "fulfill God's Righteousness", of themselves by WORKS, as you keep lying about, then you've just revealed that you have no understanding of God's "Inputed Righteousness" , and how you get it, as a Gift from God.

The only one declaring yourself to be righteous is you. You are just a hammer looking to hit everybody...without any reason.


The POWER of the cross crucifies the old sin nature so that we are able to be translated into the kingdom realm to walk without sin....to overcome just as Jesus did.

All you see are human works...because you are trying to understand what I'm saying through a carnal mind.

And you are dead wrong about how imputed righteousness works. Abraham possessed his own righteousness not God's. You are as confused and deceived as can be.

Abraham is to be shown MERCY not GLORY. Glory is for those who fulfill righteousness at the higher standard that is in Christ. But this is WAYYY over your head.

 

[ProDeo]

Not at all! We all grew up with a sin nature of darkness. If you say you didn't you are a liar.

It is only Jesus that can cleanse your sin nature and make it clean. Then and only then can you say you are free from sin and it not be a lie. Understand?

You are the one without sin, so you have said.

Not me.

That is, not that I am aware of any sin.

And that fact does not mean a thing, so I have learned.

That's the difference between you and me.

In the hope you understand.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You are the one without sin, so you have said.

Not me.

That is, not that I am aware of any sin.

And that fact does not mean a thing, so I have learned.

That's the difference between you and me.

In the hope you understand.

Do you know the importance of telling yourself the truth that Jesus TAKES AWAY our sin? If you keep telling yourself you are a sinner even though you are not "aware of any sin" you are not honoring Christ who took away your desire to sin. And if you keep telling yourself you are a sinner, sooner or later you will be.

Romans 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 lest sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

Proverbs 23:7 "as a man thinks in his heart, so is he."

 

[Episkopos]

You are the one without sin, so you have said.

Not me.

That is, not that I am aware of any sin.

And that fact does not mean a thing, so I have learned.

That's the difference between you and me.

In the hope you understand.

OK so you are a sinner...walking in your own power. The problem is that you claim to be righteous for whatever reason....whether by beliefs or works.
And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified. Ps 143:2


Do you claim to be a living man, or do you claim to be beyond all that?

 

[ProDeo]

Do you know the importance of telling yourself the truth that Jesus TAKES AWAY our sin? If you keep telling yourself you are a sinner even though you are not "aware of any sin" you are not honoring Christ who took away your desire to sin. And if you keep telling yourself you are a sinner, sooner or later you will be.

Romans 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 lest sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

Proverbs 23:7 "as a man thinks in his heart, so is he."

I already said - I hope you understand - and you did not. It strikes me as odd why it is so difficult. Let's try again and take some real life examples, maybe that helps.

You have been in Romans 7, experienced how hard it was to break with a specific sin, lots of guilt. And what does Paul say right after - Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? ----> There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. And so you were forgiven every time you repented from your sin and finally overcame, victory over sin, praise the Lord for His mercy, we all need. What did you learn from that? Can you tell me? Were you suddenly without sin? Did the Lord stop teaching you? I think not. Hope not.

Here is my story, I was 16 when my mother and father divorced. About one year later there came a stepfather in my life, he did a lot of harm to my mother, my little brother and myself. I never hated him, not in my nature, I just disliked what he did. About 3 years ago it was my job to coach a young convert and together we did 3 courses in Church, the very basics. And on one evening it was about forgiveness and the course leader asked for silent prayer, about 15-20 minutes to ask the Lord to reveal if there were people you did not had forgiven. I was pretty confident there was nobody but then during prayer the stepfather came to mind and I realized I did not fully forgave him and so I did. Meaning, there was still hidden sin in me. Me sinless, no way. A better question would be, what is next Lord ?

King David -
Ps 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts!
Ps 139:24 And see if there be any grievous way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting!

The stepfather story was not over yet, notable this week I got an email from my brother, he said the stepfather was diagnosed with PTSS as he was walking at night through the house with a knife reliving his traumatic experiences in the Vietnam war. Now I have forgiven him from the bottom of my heart.

 

[Episkopos]

I already said - I hope you understand - and you did not. It strikes me as odd why it is so difficult. Let's try again and take some real life examples, maybe that helps.

You have been in Romans 7, experienced how hard it was to break with a specific sin, lots of guilt. And what does Paul say right after - Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? ----> There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. And so you were forgiven every time you repented from your sin and finally overcame, victory over sin, praise the Lord for His mercy, we all need. What did you learn from that? Can you tell me? Were you suddenly without sin? Did the Lord stop teaching you? I think not. Hope not.

Here is my story, I was 16 when my mother and father divorced. About one year later there came a stepfather in my life, he did a lot of harm to my mother, my little brother and myself. I never hated him, not in my nature, I just disliked what he did. About 3 years ago it was my job to coach a young convert and together we did 3 courses in Church, the very basics. And on one evening it was about forgiveness and the course leader asked for silent prayer, about 15-20 minutes to ask the Lord to reveal if there were people you did not had forgiven. I was pretty confident there was nobody but then during prayer the stepfather came to mind and I realized I did not fully forgave him and so I did. Meaning, there was still hidden sin in me. Me sinless, no way. A better question would be, what is next Lord ?

King David -
Ps 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts!
Ps 139:24 And see if there be any grievous way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting!

The stepfather story was not over yet, notable this week I got an email from my brother, he said the stepfather was diagnosed with PTSS as he was walking at night through the house with a knife reliving his traumatic experiences in the Vietnam war. Now I have forgiven him from the bottom of my heart.

All the ways of God are mercy and truth. God is merciful and forgives us when we confess our sins.


That is by God's mercy.

But there is also the truth. Those who transgress the truth are not shown mercy. That's why it is wise to fear the Lord and be careful to not swear falsely or take the name of the Lord in vain (vanity).

The great delusion has come upon the church because they have no love for the truth.

It all depends on what we accept as truth and what we try teaching others.

 

[ProDeo]

OK so you are a sinner...

Yes, you don't ?

walking in your own power.

That's a false assumption of yours.

The problem is that you claim to be righteous for whatever reason....whether by beliefs or works.

I claim nothing.

Do you claim to be a living man, or do you claim to be beyond all that?

See above.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I already said - I hope you understand - and you did not. It strikes me as odd why it is so difficult. Let's try again and take some real life examples, maybe that helps.

You have been in Romans 7, experienced how hard it was to break with a specific sin, lots of guilt. And what does Paul say right after - Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? ----> There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. And so you were forgiven every time you repented from your sin and finally overcame, victory over sin, praise the Lord for His mercy, we all need. What did you learn from that? Can you tell me? Were you suddenly without sin? Did the Lord stop teaching you? I think not. Hope not.

Romans 7 has three time periods. Mine is verses 5-6. Where were you referring to?

And Romans 8 has a condition you didn't cite.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

You are referring to your unforgiveness of an abusive man as if it was a sin God would hold against you and send you to hell. It wasn't. It was a sin, not unto death. You would still be righteous without excusing him from what he did. Many Christians are taught they need to forgive beyond what even God would forgive without their repentance. Did your step-father ask for your forgiveness. Did he ever say he was sorry? That is when you need to forgive him. It doesn't seem that was at the forefront of your mind. You needed to pray to search for something. What you cannot do is allow bitterness to grow inside you. If that has happened, then for your own sake you would need to forgive him, but for yourself, not so he can continue abusing.

 

[ProDeo]

Romans 7 has three time periods. Mine is verses 5-6. Where were you referring to?

And Romans 8 has a condition you didn't cite.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

I think between 2 born again people the text you bolt is self understood.

It's not hard to spot a brother or sister.

You are referring to your unforgiveness of an abusive man as if it was a sin God would hold against you and send you to hell.

Of course not, unaware sins are forgiven -

1Joh 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

But WHEN we become aware we have to deal with that sin.

It wasn't. It was a sin, not unto death. You would still be righteous without excusing him from what he did. Many Christians are taught they need to forgive beyond what even God would forgive without their repentance. Did your step-father ask for your forgiveness. Did he ever say he was sorry? That is when you need to forgive him. It doesn't seem that was at the forefront of your mind. You needed to pray to search for something. What you cannot do is allow bitterness to grow inside you. If that has happened, then for your own sake you would need to forgive him, but for yourself, not so he can continue abusing.

There was no bitterness at all, I already stated that in my previous post. I just disliked what he did and moved on. And that's not forgiveness. And in the prayer session when you ask the Lord if there is a person you have not forgiven and the Lord shows you a person you haven't forgiven then you better act.

Sanctification is an ongoing process, depending on your openness to change, the kind of willingness of King David -

Ps 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts!
Ps 139:24 And see if there be any grievous way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting!

 

[Episkopos]

Sanctification is an ongoing process, depending on your openness to change, the kind of willingness of King David -

Ps 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts!
Ps 139:24 And see if there be any grievous way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting!

Where do you see sanctification in the text? You are adding in your interpretation. Why do that?

Find verses that actually speak of holiness....there's a WHOLE bible to find that in....don't just add in your meaning.

 

[Lizbeth]

Do you know the importance of telling yourself the truth that Jesus TAKES AWAY our sin? If you keep telling yourself you are a sinner even though you are not "aware of any sin" you are not honoring Christ who took away your desire to sin. And if you keep telling yourself you are a sinner, sooner or later you will be.

Romans 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 lest sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

Proverbs 23:7 "as a man thinks in his heart, so is he."

Sister, what does it mean that He takes away our sin....when I looked it up I saw that there is a sense in which that Greek word means that He "takes it up", "bears" it away.......which agrees with the other scriptures to do with that. I read it as a manner of speaking of a spiritual transaction rather than a literal physical taking away. It agrees with where scripture says what sins/iniquity we have are forgiven, remitted, washed away as it were....Jesus bore them away from us on the cross (scapegoat) and they were nailed to the cross with Him, no longer being reckoned/counted to us, and nor do they have dominion over us any more.

But our bodies are still dead because of sin, and it still remains possible to fall back into our sins. So while I agree that we can potentially walk perfectly without committing sin, when walking in the Spirit, I don't see that we can be sin-less in a literal sense....only that the Lord isn't counting them against us. If it is that we "become" literally sin-less, I don't see how it would remain possible to still fall back into the flesh and old man, which is why scripture warns us not to.

When people talk about sinless perfection do they just mean not committing sin, or do they mean literally having no sin in our whole being?

 

[Lizbeth]

Where do you see sanctification in the text? You are adding in your interpretation. Why do that?

Find verses that actually speak of holiness....there's a WHOLE bible to find that in....don't just add in your meaning.

What is the way everlasting? David was often prophetically speaking of the new covenant to come.....he was very blessed of God to see it.

 

[Lizbeth]

All the ways of God are mercy and truth. God is merciful and forgives us when we confess our sins.


That is by God's mercy.

But there is also the truth. Those who transgress the truth are not shown mercy. That's why it is wise to fear the Lord and be careful to not swear falsely or take the name of the Lord in vain (vanity).

The great delusion has come upon the church because they have no love for the truth.

It all depends on what we accept as truth and what we try teaching others.

The strong delusion goes hand in hand with the falling away and son of perdition being revealed. So if this happened to the church a long time ago, who was the son of perdition then? And why didn't it finish out the age then, with the day of the Lord and return of Christ?

 

[Episkopos]

What is the way everlasting? David was often prophetically speaking of the new covenant to come.....he was very blessed of God to see it.

Good question. Without understanding the bible in a deeper way, there is no way to explain the "perfect way" that is tamim (having no guile, like a child, innocent of evil.)

The everlasting way is tamim.....God is tamim, and with the tamim God will show Himself to be tamim. That is spoken of many times in the bible. Do a study...

 

[Episkopos]

The strong delusion goes hand in hand with the falling away and son of perdition being revealed. So if this happened to the church a long time ago, who was the son of perdition then? And why didn't it finish out the age then, with the day of the Lord and return of Christ?

This requires a little logic and reading skills. Before the son of perdition is revealed the great falling away must first take place.

The fullness of that falling away is not yet complete. More must fall away. The three measures of meal must become fully leavened. The saints are not fully realized either. They must be purged FROM the iniquity that will become more and more revealed over time to the elect....until they rise once again to bear witness to the truth.

My ministry is to try saving the deceived ones that are on the periphery...who have not drunk the kool-aid to the degree where there is no turning back.

 

[ProDeo]

There was no bitterness at all, I already stated that in my previous post. I just disliked what he did and moved on. And that's not forgiveness. And in the prayer session when you ask the Lord if there is a person you have not forgiven and the Lord shows you a person you haven't forgiven then you better act.

Sanctification is an ongoing process, depending on your openness to change, the kind of willingness of King David -

Ps 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts!
Ps 139:24 And see if there be any grievous way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting!

Where do you see sanctification in the text? You are adding in your interpretation. Why do that?

False quoting, why do that ?

 

[Lizbeth]

This requires a little logic and reading skills. Before the son of perdition is revealed the great falling away must first take place.

The fullness of that falling away is not yet complete. More must fall away. The three measures of meal must become fully leavened. The saints are not fully realized either. They must be purged FROM the iniquity that will become more and more revealed over time to the elect....until they rise once again to bear witness to the truth.

My ministry is to try saving the deceived ones that are on the periphery...who have not drunk the kool-aid to the degree where there is no turning back.

I am reading 2 Thessalonians 2. These all go hand in hand together: the falling away, the son of perdition being revealed and the strong delusion....followed not long after by the return of Christ to destroy the son of perdition and judge those who follow him.

It is clear from the scripture that the strong delusion (which is what you are calling our belief that imputed righteousness is a gift of God, not our own righteousness) is tied to the son of perdition, so where has he been all these centuries and did we miss the Lord coming to destroy him with the brightness of His coming?

2Th 2:1-17

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for THIS CAUSE God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.