2 Spirit Baptisms?

[Randy Kluth]

The Lord did not hold the OT saints sins against them, but the Spirit only seemed to indwell those such as Prophets and Kings, and those with specific tasks assigned them by God!

No question to me that these are specific anointings for a specific task, eg...

Exo 35. 30 Then Moses said to the Israelites, “See, the Lord has chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 31 and he has filled him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom, with understanding, with knowledge and with all kinds of skills— 32 to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, 33 to cut and set stones, to work in wood and to engage in all kinds of artistic crafts.

Indeed, throughout the book of Exodus you will find that God gifted men and women with skill, by His Spirit, and with His wisdom, to perform work that contributed to proper and holy worship. Furthermore, this verse became the standard for describing God's internal work within the consciences of the Israelites...

Deut 30.11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

What this clearly indicates is that God worked in and through Israel to minister on His behalf. The only difference between the OT and the NT is that in the OT God could not yet show that this dwelling had His approval of an eternal contract, but only a temporary contract. It was only under the NT that God could set His approval on an eternal contract with His People, the Church. God's Spirit has been given to us as an eternal dwelling, assuming we enable Him to reside within us at the core of our being, and at the core of our decision-making. In other words, we no longer live apart from a partnership with God. All we do is now to be done in God's Spirit, and not autonomously.

The problem is when we as Christians lack knowledge about God. We know that God blesses us for obedience, but we may not know how to discern God's voice on matters, or recognize that God wants to give us various gifts. If we lack this knowledge, then we lack the power of God's Spirit that comes with this, anointing us for ministry, and blessing us for our obedience.

That's why I think revivalists like Pentecostals declare a 3rd work of grace, the Spirit Baptism, to encourage Christians to acquire the full knowledge of God's will, so as to experience the fulness of His power. The whole Church was called to receive this power upon conversion, after the day of Pentecost. It shouldn't even have to be preached, because it is to be one with Salvation. And yet, due to the loss of knowledge about God's ways, the knowledge of God Himself is lost, and any sense of our being empowered by Him is also lost. If we do not recognize that God wants to give us wisdom to do things for Him, and power to produce signs and wonders, then most likely our experience of God will be diminished. Even those who have God's Spirit will not experience the full extent of His power for their lives.

 

[DaChaser]

No question to me that these are specific anointings for a specific task, eg...

Exo 35. 30 Then Moses said to the Israelites, “See, the Lord has chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 31 and he has filled him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom, with understanding, with knowledge and with all kinds of skills— 32 to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, 33 to cut and set stones, to work in wood and to engage in all kinds of artistic crafts.

Indeed, throughout the book of Exodus you will find that God gifted men and women with skill, by His Spirit, and with His wisdom, to perform work that contributed to proper and holy worship. Furthermore, this verse became the standard for describing God's internal work within the consciences of the Israelites...

Deut 30.11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

What this clearly indicates is that God worked in and through Israel to minister on His behalf. The only difference between the OT and the NT is that in the OT God could not yet show that this dwelling had His approval of an eternal contract, but only a temporary contract. It was only under the NT that God could set His approval on an eternal contract with His People, the Church. God's Spirit has been given to us as an eternal dwelling, assuming we enable Him to reside within us at the core of our being, and at the core of our decision-making. In other words, we no longer live apart from a partnership with God. All we do is now to be done in God's Spirit, and not autonomously.

The problem is when we as Christians lack knowledge about God. We know that God blesses us for obedience, but we may not know how to discern God's voice on matters, or recognize that God wants to give us various gifts. If we lack this knowledge, then we lack the power of God's Spirit that comes with this, anointing us for ministry, and blessing us for our obedience.

That's why I think revivalists like Pentecostals declare a 3rd work of grace, the Spirit Baptism, to encourage Christians to acquire the full knowledge of God's will, so as to experience the fulness of His power. The whole Church was called to receive this power upon conversion, after the day of Pentecost. It shouldn't even have to be preached, because it is to be one with Salvation. And yet, due to the loss of knowledge about God's ways, the knowledge of God Himself is lost, and any sense of our being empowered by Him is also lost. If we do not recognize that God wants to give us wisdom to do things for Him, and power to produce signs and wonders, then most likely our experience of God will be diminished. Even those who have God's Spirit will not experience the full extent of His power for their lives.

The BIG problem with Charismatics is that they take Acts as being normative for us today, but it is a historical account of how God operated between old to new Covenant era!

 

[Randy Kluth]

The BIG problem with Charismatics is that they take Acts as being normative for us today, but it is a historical account of how God operated between old to new Covenant era!

Yes, I'm a Charismatic, and I agree--that's what we believe. We believe that if you reject the possibility of God speaking to you, you likely will not hear Him. He tends to hide Himself from those disinterested in His voice. But when we actually listen, and respond to the voice of God in our conscience, God will anoint us with power, and signs and wonders will follow, to confirm the message. Signs and wonders can be of any kind--not just miracles, but also coincidences.

I'm not talking about "hearing voices" as in a psychosis. I'm not talking about following whims or imaginary ideas concocted within ourselves. Rather, I'm talking about God speaking into our conscience, so that we become willing to step out to do what we, as Christians, should be doing, testifying to Christ, leading people to salvation, and encouraging them to experience God's power to exercise individual gifts of love and compassion. If Christianity is not supernatural, it is a dead religion.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The Lord did not hold the OT saints sins against them, but the Spirit only seemed to indwell those such as Prophets and Kings, and those with specific tasks assigned them by God!

That is because kings were anointed by prophets. And prophets were chosen by God directly.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The BIG problem with Charismatics is that they take Acts as being normative for us today, but it is a historical account of how God operated between old to new Covenant era!

It may be a "Big problem" for you, but not for us who live it. You have to realize that the New Covenant has not ended, and just as not a jot or a tittle was removed out of the Old Covenant, the New Covenant gifts that the ministry of the Spirit gives us will not cease until the covenant ends.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yes, I'm a Charismatic, and I agree--that's what we believe. We believe that if you reject the possibility of God speaking to you, you likely will not hear Him. He tends to hide Himself from those disinterested in His voice. But when we actually listen, and respond to the voice of God in our conscience, God will anoint us with power, and signs and wonders will follow, to confirm the message. Signs and wonders can be of any kind--not just miracles, but also coincidences.

I'm not talking about "hearing voices" as in a psychosis. I'm not talking about following whims or imaginary ideas concocted within ourselves. Rather, I'm talking about God speaking into our conscience, so that we become willing to step out to do what we, as Christians, should be doing, testifying to Christ, leading people to salvation, and encouraging them to experience God's power to exercise individual gifts of love and compassion. If Christianity is not supernatural, it is a dead religion.

I understand what you mean about "hearing" God's voice. I've heard it often for the last 43 years. In fact, I never pray for my needs until He speaks to me and tells me what to pray, I do, and it is answered immediately. So many miracles!

 

[DaChaser]

Yes, I'm a Charismatic, and I agree--that's what we believe. We believe that if you reject the possibility of God speaking to you, you likely will not hear Him. He tends to hide Himself from those disinterested in His voice. But when we actually listen, and respond to the voice of God in our conscience, God will anoint us with power, and signs and wonders will follow, to confirm the message. Signs and wonders can be of any kind--not just miracles, but also coincidences.

I'm not talking about "hearing voices" as in a psychosis. I'm not talking about following whims or imaginary ideas concocted within ourselves. Rather, I'm talking about God speaking into our conscience, so that we become willing to step out to do what we, as Christians, should be doing, testifying to Christ, leading people to salvation, and encouraging them to experience God's power to exercise individual gifts of love and compassion. If Christianity is not supernatural, it is a dead religion.

I was so speaking towards the doctrine of the second act of Grace, "Baptism in Holy Ghost". not found in scriptures, and while the Spirit may still give the gift of tongues, not an evidence of anything, and any tongues for today would be speaking forth in unlearned language, with need of an interpreter present!

 

[DaChaser]

That is because kings were anointed by prophets. And prophets were chosen by God directly.

Under the Old Covenant relationship , God was in a corporate relationship, but now under NC individual basis, all saved now sealed and indwelt!

 

[DaChaser]

It may be a "Big problem" for you, but not for us who live it. You have to realize that the New Covenant has not ended, and just as not a jot or a tittle was removed out of the Old Covenant, the New Covenant gifts that the ministry of the Spirit gives us will not cease until the covenant ends.

The purpose of the sign gifts were to confirm the person and ministry of Jesus before completed canon, and thus those gifts not given forth any more!

 

[DaChaser]

I understand what you mean about "hearing" God's voice. I've heard it often for the last 43 years. In fact, I never pray for my needs until He speaks to me and tells me what to pray, I do, and it is answered immediately. So many miracles!

The one sure word of the Lord are the scriptures!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Under the Old Covenant relationship , God was in a corporate relationship, but now under NC individual basis, all saved now sealed and indwelt!

All "saved" yes, but not all who call themselves Christians.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The purpose of the sign gifts were to confirm the person and ministry of Jesus before completed canon, and thus those gifts not given forth any more!

Yes, they are, but you really can't use human theory when debating on a site where the Bible is our foundation.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The one sure word of the Lord are the scriptures!

Yes, so why do Cessationists negate the word of the Lord? Your Bibles must look like swiss cheese.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I was so speaking towards the doctrine of the second act of Grace, "Baptism in Holy Ghost". not found in scriptures, and while the Spirit may still give the gift of tongues, not an evidence of anything, and any tongues for today would be speaking forth in unlearned language, with need of an interpreter present!

These are, I think, legitimate concerns. That's one of the central matters that prompts me asking questions about this. Pentecostals actually advocate for a *3rd work of Grace,* after Salvation by Faith, and Sanctification. I don't necessarily see the Spirit Baptism as a "3rd Work," though I cannot deny what happened on the Day of Pentecost, nor can I deny that the "Promise of the Father" was to be initiated on that day.

In the account in Acts, not all who were saved were said to have spoke in tongues, although many of them did, and the initial Day of Pentecost saw that happening. It seems that there is a common connection between Spirit Baptism and speaking in tongues, although doctrinally, the Bible does not spell this out. In fact, Paul denies that all have the gift of tongues simply because the Holy Spirit does not always will it.

So I'm not a true-blue Pentecostal with respect to tongues, although I do not deny that tongues frequently accompany the Spirit Baptism. I do think that many get saved who lack a full knowledge of the Holy Spirit, and therefore, require more instruction so as to pay attention to this divine phenomena. In other words, it can go right past us if we aren't instructed to take note. To put it mildly, the human race is spiritually myopic, and even after salvation Christians can miss hearing the Holy Spirit. I believe that only when we begin to listen to Him, and respond to Him, will we see phenomena such as tongues, signs and wonders, miracles, etc.

Sadly, I think that Pentecostals try to make their experience fit their preconceived doctrine, and so advocate for a "prayer language." This forces all who wish to be "true Pentecostals" to imitate tongues if they don't actually have it.

I think I went through that. I may or may not have had tongues at one time, but I do not feel led to use them. On the other hand, I feel God's guidance in so many other ways in expressing my faith to others. And I have great worship of God.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I understand what you mean about "hearing" God's voice. I've heard it often for the last 43 years. In fact, I never pray for my needs until He speaks to me and tells me what to pray, I do, and it is answered immediately. So many miracles!

That really blesses me. Thanks for that! :)

 

[DaChaser]

Yes, so why do Cessationists negate the word of the Lord? Your Bibles must look like swiss cheese.

We do not say all gifts have ceased, just the sign gifts, and that God can still do healings and miracles, just none gifted to do such todasy!

 

[DaChaser]

These are, I think, legitimate concerns. That's one of the central matters that prompts me asking questions about this. Pentecostals actually advocate for a *3rd work of Grace,* after Salvation by Faith, and Sanctification. I don't necessarily see the Spirit Baptism as a "3rd Work," though I cannot deny what happened on the Day of Pentecost, nor can I deny that the "Promise of the Father" was to be initiated on that day.

In the account in Acts, not all who were saved were said to have spoke in tongues, although many of them did, and the initial Day of Pentecost saw that happening. It seems that there is a common connection between Spirit Baptism and speaking in tongues, although doctrinally, the Bible does not spell this out. In fact, Paul denies that all have the gift of tongues simply because the Holy Spirit does not always will it.

So I'm not a true-blue Pentecostal with respect to tongues, although I do not deny that tongues frequently accompany the Spirit Baptism. I do think that many get saved who lack a full knowledge of the Holy Spirit, and therefore, require more instruction so as to pay attention to this divine phenomena. In other words, it can go right past us if we aren't instructed to take note. To put it mildly, the human race is spiritually myopic, and even after salvation Christians can miss hearing the Holy Spirit. I believe that only when we begin to listen to Him, and respond to Him, will we see phenomena such as tongues, signs and wonders, miracles, etc.

Sadly, I think that Pentecostals try to make their experience fit their preconceived doctrine, and so advocate for a "prayer language." This forces all who wish to be "true Pentecostals" to imitate tongues if they don't actually have it.

I think I went through that. I may or may not have had tongues at one time, but I do not feel led to use them. On the other hand, I feel God's guidance in so many other ways in expressing my faith to others. And I have great worship of God.

I think that the Lord can still do healings and Miracles at times, but rare, and mone gifted to do such today by Him.
Also think tongues can be a gift, but not a sign of anything, and must be unlearned real language!
I see all saved are indwelt by Holy Spirit, and all should be daily filling up by Him, but for all saved, not just tongue talkers!

 

[CharismaticLady]

We do not say all gifts have ceased, just the sign gifts, and that God can still do healings and miracles, just none gifted to do such todasy!

Name the sign gifts, and I'll tell you if I have any of them.

 

[DaChaser]

Name the sign gifts, and I'll tell you if I have any of them.

Do miracles and healings!

 

[GRACE ambassador]

"two or three actions OF The Holy Spirit"?

I believe long before we can "figure out the gifts, Either for, or NOT for us, today," we
have to first reconcile the Confusion of "baptisms"? Is it "IN" or "OF" The Spirit?
Scriptures, please, because, "studying" baptisms, I have Only found These:
"With" and "BY" - i.e.:

3 Baptisms Scriptural Summary!: {FULL "study" is here: 13 Bible baptisms!}

And, Please Be Very Richly Blessed In CHRIST, And HIS Word Of Truth!:

LORD JESUS, please open our hearts to All of Thy Truth. Amen:

Q: Does God Still Require water baptism, Today, Under HIS PURE GRACE?:
Q: Is the Only ONE Baptism TODAY "with" OR "BY" The Holy Spirit?

"Prophecy/Law" {earthly} gospel of the kingdom, ISRAEL "Prominent!"
{past/future}

►►► The Twelve Were Sent to {water} baptize! ◄◄◄
The TWO Main (of 12) baptismS =

A) water, For remission of sins!:
(Matthew_3:5-6; Mark_1:4; Luke_3:3; John_1:31; Luke_7:29-30; Acts_10:37)
(Matthew_28:19; Mark_16:16; Acts_2:38, 22:16; Ezekiel_36:25)
+
B) WITH The Holy Spirit, Poured Out By CHRIST, for power, signs And wonders!
(Isaiah_44:3; Matthew_3:11; Mark_1:8, 16:17-18;
Luke_24:49; Acts_2:17-18, 38, 8:15-17, 11:16)

Rightly Divided (2_Timothy_2:15 KJB!) From Things That Differ!:

"Mystery/GRACE!" {Heavenly!} Gospel Of GRACE, Jew And Gentile "Equal!"
{Current, Today!}
►►► Paul Was Not Sent to {water} baptize! Why Not?: ◄◄◄

Today: Only ONE Baptism = "BY" The ONE Spirit = God's OPERATION,
Spiritually Identifying members In (The ONE Body Of) CHRIST!!
(Ephesians_4:5; Colossians_2:12; Galatians_3:27;
Romans_6:3-4; 1_Corinthians_12:13 KJB!)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion: God's ONE Baptism Today? = ONE {MOST Important}?
OR, EQUALS TWO?

Is it not Possible That God's Answer Of "No water baptism, for us Today," Under
HIS Pure GRACE, absolutely vanquishes Satan's Confusion into oblivion!?

Q: IF the water is gone today, what Else "went with it"? powers, signs, wonders,
miracles, healings, word of knowledge, gift of prophecy, and, tongues? Or not?

Just wondering, because of All the Confusion, especially to the
new babes in CHRIST, and, can we "help them Solve this Confusion"?

Possibly this, for starters? GRACE Word for infirmities

Precious friend(s), Please Be Very RICHLY Blessed!