24 Elders

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marks

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This came up in another thread . . . something I've heard from various sources . . . that these 24 Elders are "representative of a larger group". I don't see that. To me, this reads like there are 24 men seated on thrones in heaven, just as there are 4 living creatures also around the throne. I've never seen reason for them to be representative, do you?

Revelation 4:3-5 KJV
3) And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4) And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
5) And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 4:9-11 KJV
9) And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10) The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11) Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Revelation 5:4-10 KJV
4) And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5) And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7) And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8) And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9) And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Much love!
 
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keithr

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. . . that these 24 Elders are "representative of a larger group". I don't see that. To me, this reads like there are 24 men seated on thrones in heaven, just as there are 4 living creatures also around the throne. I've never seen reason for them to be representative, do you?
Yes. Most things in those passage are symbolic and representative of something. I'm pretty sure that the glorified Jesus doesn't look like a slain lamb which has seven horns and seven eyes. Remember, we will be like him (1 John 3:2) - are we too going to look like seven horned and seven eyed sheep? I hope not! o_O

Revelation 4:5 says that the seven spirits of God are lamps of fire. Revelation 5:6 says that the seven spirits of God are eyes on the slain lamb. If they were literal then one of them must be wrong. Similarly the 24 elders are symbolic of the resurrected church, otherwise who are these mere 24 men that have been redeemed "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" and who have been made kings and priests and will reign on the earth - that's the role of the resurrected church:

2 Timothy 2 (WEB):
(11) This saying is trustworthy: “For if we died with him, we will also live with him.​
(12) If we endure, we will also reign with him. ...​

Revelation 20:6 (WEB):
(6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.

1 Peter 2:9 (WEB):
(9) But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, that you may proclaim the excellence of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:​
 
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quietthinker

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This came up in another thread . . . something I've heard from various sources . . . that these 24 Elders are "representative of a larger group". I don't see that. To me, this reads like there are 24 men seated on thrones in heaven, just as there are 4 living creatures also around the throne. I've never seen reason for them to be representative, do you?
yes, I do.
 

RLT63

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This came up in another thread . . . something I've heard from various sources . . . that these 24 Elders are "representative of a larger group". I don't see that. To me, this reads like there are 24 men seated on thrones in heaven, just as there are 4 living creatures also around the throne. I've never seen reason for them to be representative, do you?

Revelation 4:3-5 KJV
3) And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4) And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
5) And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 4:9-11 KJV
9) And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10) The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11) Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Revelation 5:4-10 KJV
4) And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5) And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7) And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8) And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9) And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Much love!
Some commentaries say the 24 Elders represent the Church but then they take other numbers like the 144,000 literally
 
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marks

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Revelation 4:5 says that the seven spirits of God are lamps of fire. Revelation 5:6 says that the seven spirits of God are eyes on the slain lamb. If they were literal then one of them must be wrong. Similarly the 24 elders are symbolic of the resurrected church, otherwise who are these mere 24 men that have been redeemed "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" and who have been made kings and priests and will reign on the earth - that's the role of the resurrected church:
You are listing things where the Bible tells us it's something else, the candles stands are churches, the stars are their angels, like that.

Where is the place that tells us what the 24 thrones actually are? What the 24 elders are? "The incense is the prayers of the saints", "the twenty and four elders are _________________", where is that?

It sounds like they remind you of certain aspects concerning the church.

They remind me of the 24 priests David set in courses representing the priesthood, while still being 24 actual men.

Much love!
 
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marks

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Some commentaries say the 24 Elders represent the Church but then they take other numbers like the 144,000 literally
Sometimes commentaries seem like they are playing pin the tail on the donkey pin the church in heaven.

Much love!
 
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marks

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Revelation 20:6 (WEB):
(6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.
Revelation 20:4 KJV
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

These would not be the 24 elders, however, they live and reign with Christ also.

?

Much love!
 

keithr

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You are listing things where the Bible tells us it's something else, the candles stands are churches, the stars are their angels, like that.
I don't think so. In Revelation 1, it says that John "was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day", and hearing a loud voice behind him he turned around and saw "seven golden lamp stands. And among the lamp stands was one like a son of man", and "He had seven stars in his right hand". This was Jesus, who told John that "The seven stars are the angels of the seven assemblies. The seven lamp stands are seven assemblies". Note that this doesn't say where John was, only when - "on the Lord's day". So I would assume that he was seeing this vision on the earth.

Jesus then gives John seven letters to send to the seven churches (assemblies) that are on the earth. It is only after that, in chapter 4 (from which I was quoting) that it says, "After these things I looked and saw a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, like a trumpet speaking with me, was one saying, “Come up here, and I will show you the things which must happen after this.” So it is at this point that John, in his vision, goes up into heaven, to the throne room of God, where the 24 elders are sat on thrones around God's throne, and it is here that it says there were "seven lamps of fire burning before his throne, which are the seven Spirits of God".

Chapter one describes "golden lamp stands", chapter four describes "lamps of fire". They are different and in different places, and it tells us that they represent different things. As I said, "Revelation 4:5 says that the seven spirits of God are lamps of fire, Revelation 5:6 says that the seven spirits of God are eyes on the slain lamb", so the seven spirits of God are represented by different symbols and so are definitely symbolic. Just as the "lamps of fire" in the throne room are symbolic, so also are the 24 elders symbolic (of the resurrected church - priests and kings).

Where is the place that tells us what the 24 thrones actually are? What the 24 elders are? "The incense is the prayers of the saints", "the twenty and four elders are _________________", where is that?
I'm sure that if the Book of Revelation had a verse saying, "The 24 elders are ...", that we would both have discovered it by now and quoted it! It does say who they are though. It says that they are kings and priests - they sang to Jesus "You ... bought us for God with your blood, out of every tribe, language, people, and nation, and made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign on the earth” (Revelation 5:9-10). That is describing the resurrected church, who are "joint heirs with Christ" (Romans 8:17).

They remind me of the 24 priests David set in courses representing the priesthood, while still being 24 actual men.
Yes, they are described as kings (wearing crowns and sitting on thrones) and the number of them, 24, is symbolic of them also being priests.
 
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keithr

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Revelation 20:4 KJV
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

These would not be the 24 elders, however, they live and reign with Christ also.
It's the people who were resurrected in the first resurrection that will sit on thones and judge mankind (jointly with Jesus, who is our head, and King of kings). That's the resurrection of the church, who are represented symbolically by the 24 elders. As I quoted, Revelation 20:6 says:

(6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.​

As 1 Corinthians 6 says:

(2) Don’t you know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?​
(3) Don’t you know that we will judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?​

Revelation 20:4 is a it of a muddled verse, consisting of three sentences. John says that he saw the thrones and those that were sat on the thrones (the resurrected church), and in a seperate sentence that he also saw the great multitude again, those that had come through the Great Tribulation, who were before the throne of God. Then in a third sentence he says that "They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years", where the "they" is refering back to those who are sat on the thrones.
 
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marks

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I don't think so. In Revelation 1, it says that John "was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day", and hearing a loud voice behind him he turned around and saw "seven golden lamp stands. And among the lamp stands was one like a son of man", and "He had seven stars in his right hand". This was Jesus, who told John that "The seven stars are the angels of the seven assemblies. The seven lamp stands are seven assemblies". Note that this doesn't say where John was, only when - "on the Lord's day". So I would assume that he was seeing this vision on the earth.
What I'm saying though is that John saw lamp stands, and Jesus told John the 7 lampstands are 7 churches. So we know from the words of Jesus Christ Himself that these lamps stands are not only symbols, also what those symbols mean.

Chapter one describes "golden lamp stands", chapter four describes "lamps of fire". They are different and in different places, and it tells us that they represent different things. As I said, "Revelation 4:5 says that the seven spirits of God are lamps of fire, Revelation 5:6 says that the seven spirits of God are eyes on the slain lamb", so the seven spirits of God are represented by different symbols and so are definitely symbolic. Just as the "lamps of fire" in the throne room are symbolic, so also are the 24 elders symbolic (of the resurrected church - priests and kings).
I'm with you so far . . . this is what I'm talking about. Where the Bible identifies symbols and meanings. Is God on the throne Himself symbolic? The living creatures?

I think my question is, because some elements are identified as symbols, are all elements symbols? I don't think so.

But let me ask you . . . the Bible tells us the meaning of the lampstands, and the meaning of the stars, and the meaning of the 7 lamps. Where does God tell us the "meaning" of the 24 elders? I don't know a place. How then can we be sure we've landed on the right meaning?

I'm sure that if the Book of Revelation had a verse saying, "The 24 elders are ...", that we would both have discovered it by now and quoted it! It does say who they are though. It says that they are kings and priests - they sang to Jesus "You ... bought us for God with your blood, out of every tribe, language, people, and nation, and made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign on the earth” (Revelation 5:9-10). That is describing the resurrected church, who are "joint heirs with Christ" (Romans 8:17).
Yes, we'd all be quoting it, except, that's what I feel like I'm doing in calling them 24 elders.

There is certainly a commonality between these elders and the church, just like there is commonality between me and my church leadership, but I'm not my church leadership, thought.

This to me is the heart of the matter. There's the part that is written, and there is the part some surmise. I feel certain about the part that is written.

What would be the reason to not just go with 24 men seated on thrones around God's throne? Just that there is nothing "literal" in the description of this heavenly scene?

It's the people who were resurrected in the first resurrection that will sit on thones and judge mankind (jointly with Jesus, who is our head, and King of kings). That's the resurrection of the church, who are represented symbolically by the 24 elders. As I quoted, Revelation 20:6 says:

(6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.​

As 1 Corinthians 6 says:

(2) Don’t you know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?​
(3) Don’t you know that we will judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?​

Revelation 20:4 is a it of a muddled verse, consisting of three sentences. John says that he saw the thrones and those that were sat on the thrones (the resurrected church), and in a seperate sentence that he also saw the great multitude again, those that had come through the Great Tribulation, who were before the throne of God. Then in a third sentence he says that "They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years", where the "they" is refering back to those who are sat on the thrones.
I'd again respond that shared characteristics don't make us the same people.

You've given me some good responses, I want to come back after some thought on this.

Much love!
 
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keithr

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I'm with you so far . . . this is what I'm talking about. Where the Bible identifies symbols and meanings. Is God on the throne Himself symbolic? The living creatures?
Revelation 4:2 (WEB):
(2) Immediately I was in the Spirit. Behold, there was a throne set in heaven, and one sitting on the throne​

It doesn't describe what God looks like, it just says "one sitting on the throne", which leads us to suspect that John saw a man, i.e. that God, like the 24 elders, was represented in John's vision as a man. Yet John wrote in 1 John 3:2, "now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is".

Yes, I think that the descriptions of the four living creature are symbolic representations of the Cherubim and Seraphim. The whole scene appears to be symbolic to me, describing spiritual, non-matter things with physical representations.

What would be the reason to not just go with 24 men seated on thrones around God's throne? Just that there is nothing "literal" in the description of this heavenly scene?
Because men can't exist in heaven, which is not a physical place (it's not part of God's created universe). Paul wrote, 1 Corinthians 15 (WEB):

(50) Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can’t inherit God’s Kingdom; neither does the perishable inherit imperishable.​
(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,​
(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​
(53) For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.​
(37) That which you sow, you don’t sow the body that will be, but a bare grain, maybe of wheat, or of some other kind.​
(38) But God gives it a body even as it pleased him, and to each seed a body of its own.​
(44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.​

Therefore it is not reasonable to expect humans to be in heaven with God.
 
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marks

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Yes, I think that the descriptions of the four living creature are symbolic representations of the Cherubim and Seraphim. The whole scene appears to be symbolic to me, describing spiritual, non-matter things with physical representations.
I'm not going to say this absolutely isn't so . . . because let's face facts, this part of the Bible speaks of things totally outside our experience or imagination. But I do have to ask, IF this is true, how can you ever be assured that you have the correct interpretation?

Much love!
 

keithr

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But I do have to ask, IF this is true, how can you ever be assured that you have the correct interpretation?
I don't think we can be 100% sure that we correctly understand all of the Scriptures while we are still human. As Paul said, 1 Corinthians 13 (WEB):

(12) For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, even as I was also fully known.​
(13) But now faith, hope, and love remain—these three. The greatest of these is love.​

2 Corinthians 5:7 - "for we walk by faith, not by sight".

All we can do is study the Scriptures, praying to God for greater understanding of His word. Regardless, the great thing is that (1 Corinthians 2:9, KJV):

(9) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.​
 
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marks

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I don't think we can be 100% sure that we correctly understand all of the Scriptures while we are still human. As Paul said, 1 Corinthians 13 (WEB):

(12) For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, even as I was also fully known.​
(13) But now faith, hope, and love remain—these three. The greatest of these is love.​

2 Corinthians 5:7 - "for we walk by faith, not by sight".

All we can do is study the Scriptures, praying to God for greater understanding of His word. Regardless, the great thing is that (1 Corinthians 2:9, KJV):

(9) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.​
I've come to think of some of the things God does as involving great pageantry and our participation in various ways.

Here's an example . . . why the angels? Is there anything an angel does that God couldn't Himself do directly? Yet He created and uses angels. God could have simply turned King Ahab's heart to go to war, but instead held an heavenly council, and a spirit was sent to be a deceiving spirit in the hearts of the prophets.

And I find a great many things like this, where God shows us elaborate "pageantry" for lack of a better word. I think at the heart of it - I feel foolish in speaking about things which I do not know - is God's desire for our involvement in what He does. He involves us from several directions, people are involved, angels are involved, He sets up elaborate scenes with processionals and proclamations and prayers and praises. Or in the case of Calvary, brutality.

He could have placed our sins on Jesus and let Him simply die, and it would accomplish that which His death accomplished. But God made a Grand Demonstration of His love for us, to show us that even as we treated Him with our utmost evil, He loves us with His amazing love.

I think that God wants us to immerse ourselves in the imagery of these scenes, so that the descriptions, not our interpretations, guide our thoughts.

To me it's dangerous to assign meanings to things that aren't stated in the Bible, simply because it lacks Biblical authority. It doesn't seem to me that this is a problem for you, meaning to say, you realize the limitations.

Personally, I feel the much better candidate for where we see the church in heaven is chapter 7, the innumerable multitude.

Much love!
 

keithr

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Personally, I feel the much better candidate for where we see the church in heaven is chapter 7, the innumerable multitude.
Except that the innumerable multitude are only those people that believed in Jesus during the Great Tribulation (Revelation 7:14). What about all the Christians that lived from Jesus' first advent up to the rapture? They were all resurrected in the first resurrrection before the Great Tribulation started. The acceptable time for sacrifice and acceptance as a member of the body of Christ ended at that rapture/resurrection, so that those that believe during the Great Tribulation have left it too late.

Effectively the church on the earth ends with the first resurrection; those that believe after that have a different reward from the church members, i.e. those who believe during the difficult times of the Great Tribulation (the inumerable multitude) are rewarded with a mortal spiritual body resurrection and a home in heaven serving God (as servants, not sons), and those who believe and obey after that, including all the dead who are resurrected in the second resurrection, are rewarded with eternal human life living on the earth. And those that reach the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign and are still unbelieving or unfaithful to God and Jesus, they will die a second time, and will have no further life.