A 5th Gospel

[Webers_Home]

.
Were I to recommend a so-called fifth gospel, I would pick the one that the
Bible labels "eternal".

†. Rev 14:6-7 . . And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having an
eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation
and tribe and tongue and people; and he said with a loud voice: "Fear God,
and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; and
worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of
waters."

The eternal gospel is pretty simple. Pretty much all it says is (1) there's a
supreme being, (2) there's a frightful reckoning looming on the horizon, and
(3) that the cosmos-- all of its forms of life, matter, and energy --is the
product of intelligent design.

Of particular interest to me is the inclusion of water in the eternal gospel.
Scientists theorize the origin of the earth's amazing quantity of water
without really knowing exactly where it came from, nor how it got here.
Well; that is one of the things that I like about Genesis. It takes an ignorant
blue-collar welder like myself and gives him answers to questions that
people much brighter, and better educated than I cannot answer.

Giving "glory" to God simply indicates giving someone credit where credit is
due; and "worship" basically just simply means admiration.

It's quite natural to admire celebrities, pro athletes, and super achievers;
and to give them credit where credit is due; but not quite so natural to do
the same for their creator, which is why it will be child's play for the eternal
gospel to condemn so great a number of people to hell and eternal suffering.
They will go there because it is in their nature to go there; and to go
nowhere else but there.

Buen Camino
/

 

[williemac]

.
Were I to recommend a so-called fifth gospel, I would pick the one that the
Bible labels "eternal".

†. Rev 14:6-7 . . And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having an
eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation
and tribe and tongue and people; and he said with a loud voice: "Fear God,
and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; and
worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of
waters."

The eternal gospel is pretty simple. Pretty much all it says is (1) there's a
supreme being, (2) there's a frightful reckoning looming on the horizon, and
(3) that the cosmos-- all of its forms of life, matter, and energy --is the
product of intelligent design.

Of particular interest to me is the inclusion of water in the eternal gospel.
Scientists theorize the origin of the earth's amazing quantity of water
without really knowing exactly where it came from, nor how it got here.
Well; that is one of the things that I like about Genesis. It takes an ignorant
blue-collar welder like myself and gives him answers to questions that
people much brighter, and better educated than I cannot answer.

Giving "glory" to God simply indicates giving someone credit where credit is
due; and "worship" basically just simply means admiration.

It's quite natural to admire celebrities, pro athletes, and super achievers;
and to give them credit where credit is due; but not quite so natural to do
the same for their creator, which is why it will be child's play for the eternal
gospel to condemn so great a number of people to hell and eternal suffering.
They will go there because it is in their nature to go there; and to go
nowhere else but there.

Buen Camino
/

There is no such bible teaching that any human will suffer forever conscious torment. In John 3:16, everlasting life (eternal life) is designated only to those who believe. It is not designated across the board regardless of faith or no faith. The alternative destiny is to perish. If "perish" means eternal (forever) torment, then everlasting life would also apply, for one cannot be in conscious everlasting torment without having everlasting life. The doctrine of forever torment relies on such things as an alternative 'bible only' definition for such words as destroy, destruction, perish, death, and die. The likelihood that all of these words mean something different in the bible only, is slim at best.
In John 6:50,51, Jesus states that one will either live forever or die. He states that if one eats of His flesh, one will live forever and NOT die. Therefore dying must mean something other than living forever.....just saying. This eternal torment doctrine is an holy cow doctrine. People will resist any thought of ultimate and final extermination at the cost of both logic and scripture.

Torment is a temporary state. It lasts until the final judgment, referred to as Genna (or Gehenna). In Math.10:28 where hell is taken from the word Gehenna, Jesus says that in that judgment BOTH body and soul are destroyed. This is the second death. In the first death, also mentioned in that verse, the body dies but not the soul. Hence we see torment in Hades. But this is not the final state for a lost soul.

Jesus in that verse suggests that we do not fear they who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. For those who insist that God cannot or will not kill the soul, they should take His advice and "do not fear" God.

The eternal gospel, also called the everlasting gospel in my translation, is the promise of everlasting life for those who partake of Jesus.
The glory that belongs to God is that this life cannot be produced or earned through man's natural resources. It must come to him as a free gift, offered by God's grace. Thus God retains the glory, that He is the source of all things.

 

[Webers_Home]

The eternal gospel, also called the everlasting gospel in my translation,
is the promise of everlasting life for those who partake of Jesus.
.

You really should pay more attention to language and grammar. Neither
Jesus nor the cross are mentioned in the eternal gospel as per Rev 14:6-7.
It's focus is primarily upon the originator of the cosmos; which is essentially
the very same focus as Gen 1:1.

In other words: you either believe in intelligent design, or you don't. If you
do believe, then you will admire both the originator's genius and His
handiwork. If you don't believe; you won't admire either. Simple as that.

†. Rom 1:18-21 . .The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against
all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their
wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because
God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's
invisible qualities-- His eternal power and divine nature --have been clearly
seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without
excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor
gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts
were darkened.

Buen Camino
/

 

[williemac]

You really should pay more attention to language and grammar. Neither
Jesus nor the cross are mentioned in the eternal gospel as per Rev 14:6-7.
It's focus is primarily upon the originator of the cosmos; which is essentially
the very same focus as Gen 1:1.

In other words: you either believe in intelligent design, or you don't. If you
do believe, then you will admire both the originator's genius and His
handiwork. If you don't believe; you won't admire either. Simple as that.

†. Rom 1:18-21 . .The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against
all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their
wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because
God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's
invisible qualities-- His eternal power and divine nature --have been clearly
seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without
excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor
gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts
were darkened.

Buen Camino
/

The word "gospel" means "good news" . There is only one gospel. There is only one "good news" that the world needs to hear. That is.. salvation to eternal life through faith in Jesus. If you think that every time the word is used (gospel) in the bible that it requires all the wording necessary to clarify the exact meaning or use of the word, then you have missed the mark. Especially if you use the context to try to suggest that there is another gospel than the one mentioned in Rom.1:16. There, it is called the "gospel of Christ". If we use your logic, we could make an argument that it is also another gospel based on its wording. snap out of it, bro ;) Those who reject the gospel in all cases of the use of the term, have the exact same destiny. They will perish.


This reply is in no way intended to diminish the message in the passage in Revelation. Of course much of the world denies their creator. That is nothing new. But as well, I am intrigued that you made reference to Rom.1:18-21 without acknowledging that it is in light and in context of the " gospel of Christ". If you want to pull this passage into the conversation, then how do you manage to do that without also admitting that it refers to the same gospel that is in Revelation that you are promoting as a different gospel?

 

[Webers_Home]

There is no such bible teaching that any human will suffer forever conscious
torment.

The skill with which clever sophists have managed to spin eternal suffering
out of the Bible is pretty impressive.

†. Rev 21:8 . . But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers,
sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in
the lake which burns with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

The koiné Greek word for "brimstone" is theion (thi'-on) which means:
sulphur (a.k.a. sulfur) which Webster's defines as: a nonmetallic element
that occurs either free or combined esp. in sulfides and sulfates, is a
constituent of proteins, exists in several allotropic forms including yellow
orthorhombic crystals, resembles oxygen chemically but is less active and
more acidic, and is used esp. in the chemical and paper industries, in rubber
vulcanization, and in medicine for treating skin diseases.

I looked up sulfur on Wikipedia, and was amazed at the number of its
applications: quite a few are beneficial.

Whenever sulfur is mentioned as a tool of judgment in the Bible, it's always
in combination with fire since sulfur doesn't exist in nature as a flaming
substance like lava and/or magma. Sulfur is flammable, yes, but then so is
an oak log and/or a lady's handkerchief.

One of the reasons given in Wikipedia for setting sulfur on fire is the fumes
that it gives off are quite useful for fumigation. Personally I wouldn't want to
fumigate my house with sulfur if perchance it might leave behind a rather
unpleasant odor. In point of fact, sulfur is one of the elements found in
skunk spray and we all know just how stubborn the odor of that stuff is.

I don't know exactly why God prefers using ignited sulfur in some
applications (e.g. Sodom and Gomorrah; Luke 17:29) but one thing's for
sure: if the conflagration doesn't get you, the fumes surely will without
respiratory protection. Perhaps the impoundment of fire and sulfur depicted
at Rev 20:11-15 and Rev 21:8 is some sort of super-lethal weapon of mass
destruction; viz: first the fumes terminate your life, and then the fire cooks
your corpse. Pretty grisly thought.

However, though the corpses of the damned will be cooked, they won't be
cremated to oblivion. According to the Bible; the corpses will be preserved
as perpetual nourishment for a curious species of fire-proof worm. And
they'll also be on public display like the remains of those prehistoric animals
in the museum of the La Brea Tar Pits in Los Angeles.

†. Isa 66:22-24 . . All humanity will come to worship me from week to week
and from month to month. And as they go out, they will see the dead bodies
of those who have rebelled against me. For the worms that devour them will
never die, and the fire that burns them will never go out. All who pass by
will view them with utter horror.

†. Mark 9:47-48 . . If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It is better to
enter the kingdom of God half blind than to have two eyes and be thrown
into hell; where the worm never dies and the fire never goes out.

Concerning the "goats" of Matt 25:41-46

†. Matt 25:46 . .Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the
righteous to eternal life.

The koiné Greek word for "eternal" in that verse is aionios (ahee-o'-nee-os)
which means perpetual; viz: ongoing. In other words: that verse could
be legally translated: "then they will go away to perpetual punishment, but
the righteous to perpetual life."

"perpetual" can be legally defined as: continuous, unlimited, forever, and/or
without either interruption or intermission.

According to Matt 10:28, it is possible to terminate the human body and the
human soul. However, according to Heb 12:23, people can get by without a
human body on the other side.

According to Matt 25:41 and Rev 20:10, the Devil will be tormented in the
impoundment of fire and sulfur forever and ever. Well; the Devil is a spirit;
which tells me that though spirits can be made to suffer in fire and sulfur, it
doesn't exterminate them. So, when the bodies and souls of the damned are
destroyed in fire and sulfur, the damned won't be exterminated because
they will be jailed in there as spirits right alongside their daddy. So instead
of being comforted in Abraham's arms, they'll be cuddled in Satan's.

Buen Camino
/

 

[williemac]

The skill with which clever sophists have managed to spin eternal suffering
out of the Bible is pretty impressive.

†. Rev 21:8 . . But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers,
sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in
the lake which burns with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

The koiné Greek word for "brimstone" is theion (thi'-on) which means:
sulphur (a.k.a. sulfur) which Webster's defines as: a nonmetallic element
that occurs either free or combined esp. in sulfides and sulfates, is a
constituent of proteins, exists in several allotropic forms including yellow
orthorhombic crystals, resembles oxygen chemically but is less active and
more acidic, and is used esp. in the chemical and paper industries, in rubber
vulcanization, and in medicine for treating skin diseases.

I looked up sulfur on Wikipedia, and was amazed at the number of its
applications: quite a few are beneficial.

Whenever sulfur is mentioned as a tool of judgment in the Bible, it's always
in combination with fire since sulfur doesn't exist in nature as a flaming
substance like lava and/or magma. Sulfur is flammable, yes, but then so is
an oak log and/or a lady's handkerchief.

One of the reasons given in Wikipedia for setting sulfur on fire is the fumes
that it gives off are quite useful for fumigation. Personally I wouldn't want to
fumigate my house with sulfur if perchance it might leave behind a rather
unpleasant odor. In point of fact, sulfur is one of the elements found in
skunk spray and we all know just how stubborn the odor of that stuff is.

I don't know exactly why God prefers using ignited sulfur in some
applications (e.g. Sodom and Gomorrah; Luke 17:29) but one thing's for
sure: if the conflagration doesn't get you, the fumes surely will without
respiratory protection. Perhaps the impoundment of fire and sulfur depicted
at Rev 20:11-15 and Rev 21:8 is some sort of super-lethal weapon of mass
destruction; viz: first the fumes terminate your life, and then the fire cooks
your corpse. Pretty grisly thought.

However, though the corpses of the damned will be cooked, they won't be
cremated to oblivion. According to the Bible; the corpses will be preserved
as perpetual nourishment for a curious species of fire-proof worm. And
they'll also be on public display like the remains of those prehistoric animals
in the museum of the La Brea Tar Pits in Los Angeles.

†. Isa 66:22-24 . . All humanity will come to worship me from week to week
and from month to month. And as they go out, they will see the dead bodies
of those who have rebelled against me. For the worms that devour them will
never die, and the fire that burns them will never go out. All who pass by
will view them with utter horror.

†. Mark 9:47-48 . . If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It is better to
enter the kingdom of God half blind than to have two eyes and be thrown
into hell; where the worm never dies and the fire never goes out.

Concerning the "goats" of Matt 25:41-46

†. Matt 25:46 . .Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the
righteous to eternal life.

The koiné Greek word for "eternal" in that verse is aionios (ahee-o'-nee-os)
which means perpetual; viz: ongoing. In other words: that verse could
be legally translated: "then they will go away to perpetual punishment, but
the righteous to perpetual life."

"perpetual" can be legally defined as: continuous, unlimited, forever, and/or
without either interruption or intermission.

According to Matt 10:28, it is possible to terminate the human body and the
human soul. However, according to Heb 12:23, people can get by without a
human body on the other side.

According to Matt 25:41 and Rev 20:10, the Devil will be tormented in the
impoundment of fire and sulfur forever and ever. Well; the Devil is a spirit;
which tells me that though spirits can be made to suffer in fire and sulfur, it
doesn't exterminate them. So, when the bodies and souls of the damned are
destroyed in fire and sulfur, the damned won't be exterminated because
they will be jailed in there as spirits right alongside their daddy. So instead
of being comforted in Abraham's arms, they'll be cuddled in Satan's.

Buen Camino
/

A ton of logic with no scriptural support. The Lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels. I never attempted to deny that they are eternal beings. I never tried to imply that they will not suffer everlasting torment. I am speaking of the human race, and if you care to check out Gen.3:22, you will find that Adam and Eve were denied access to the tree of life lest they eat of it and live forever. Thus mankind does not automatically live forever. This is precisely why the second death is called just that: DEATH.

As for your ramblings about sulfur, whatever conclusions you arrive at cannot and must not contradict scripture. In fact I applaud your mention of the corpses. If you think about it, a corpse is a dead body. I actually agree with this assessment that the corpses will not be allowed to decay. But that doesn't mean that a corpse is anything other than a lifeless body. No life!

This is why I made mention of John 6:50,51. There, Jesus promised that those who eat of His flesh (by faith) will not die but will live forever. As I mentioned from John 3:16, the same goes for this passage. Whatever dying is, it cannot be living forever. The two destinies are not the same as one another. It is one or the other. Not both. If one dies, he does not live forever. If He lives forever, he will never die. This is in plain language in the text. Why do you insist on contradicting our Lord?

As for Math.25:46, let us examine what it says and what it doesn't say. It says that the punishment will be eternal; meaning it will last forever. But what it doesn't say is just what the punishment is. It tells of the duration but not the nature of the punishment. So then, if the nature of the punishment is to die, perish, be destroyed, then this would therefore be a permanent punishment, one that will not be reversed. The person will stay dead. That is his punishment; To die forever. To never come back to life; therefore, an everlasting (eternal) punishment. The mistake that is made is that people insert their preconceived notion into the text and come up with the idea that it says one is consciously experiencing being punished forever. That is an assumption and a contradiction. No text actually says any such thing about any human born after Adam.

As for your mention of Math.10:28, you correctly identified that both body and soul can be terminated. But I suspect you have incorrectly defined the soul. The word comes from the Greek: psyche (meaning the "mind"). When we sleep, our bodies are unconscious, but we still dream. This is because the mind is still at work. The human subconscious does not sleep. However, if it is terminated, being part of the mind (soul) , then all consciousness, including the subconscious, will cease. In short, if the soul is terminated the person is terminated.

The soul is who we are. It lives in a body that connects it with its environment. In 2Cor.5:1, Paul explains that if the body dies, we (the soul) have another one that will then connect us with the spirit realm. This is our spiritual body. This is our spirit. Thus we are body, soul, and spirit. But without the soul, we are not conscious or aware. We become exterminated from the experience of life. This is the final destiny of the lost, of the damned. Extermination from life. A corpse is a corpse. No life in it.

 

[Webers_Home]

A ton of logic with no scriptural support.

:-)

Claiming so-called "scriptural support" is an arbitrary assertion. One guy
can make a passage of the Bible support one thing, and another guy comes
along and makes the same passage support something the opposite. It's
been my experience that people are very adept at forcing the Bible to
"support" whatever they want. Caveat Lector.


Buen Camino
/

 

[williemac]

:-)

Claiming so-called "scriptural support" is an arbitrary assertion. One guy
can make a passage of the Bible support one thing, and another guy comes
along and makes the same passage support something the opposite. It's
been my experience that people are very adept at forcing the Bible to
"support" whatever they want. Caveat Lector.


Buen Camino
/

It may be an arbitrary assertion, until one examines the scripture used and understands what it means. Yes, anyone can squeeze their doctrine into scripture rather than extract it from scripture. And this is exactly why I am engaging this subject. This is exactly what I have concluded is being done to support the idea of eternal human conscious torment. And I think I have made a strong biblical case for the extermination of the lost rather than the everlasting life of torment that is commonly taught. As well, I came to this conclusion on my own as a result of what I feel was a prompting from the Holy Spirit to question and study the subject. It is only because I have been open to correction that I changed my mind about this doctrine. I can only therefore suspect that this is most often a closed subject in the minds of many.

To whom it may concern I ask again in so many words....in John 3:16, how many of the two possible destinies are everlasting life? One, or both? It may seem too simple a question, but for the fact that those who preach everlasting conscious torment also by default preach everlasting consciousness. This translates to everlasting life. It is exactly what many preach, that the lost will be eternally separated from God and thus remain alive for eternity. This translates to a contradiction with what Jesus said in John 3:16. And especially contradicts what He stated in John 6:50,51.

Ironically, I don't necessarily see scripture 'supporting' ultimate extermination of the lost. I see scripture teaching it.

On the other side, I see the doctrine of eternal conscious torment one that arises not from direct statements but rather from conclusion made from assumed connections and assumed meanings.

 

[Webers_Home]

I think I have made a strong biblical case . . . I came to this conclusion on
my own as a result of what I feel was a prompting from the Holy Spirit . . . I
see scripture teaching it; etc, etc, etc.

Wake up and smell the coffee Willie. I've dialogued with people on nearly
thirty different internet forums in the last 16 years and trust me; they all
defend their understanding of the Bible pretty much the very same way you
do: Spirit and all; and yet those same supposedly Spirit-led people are unable
to come to terms on elementary matters like the afterlife and eternal suffering.

Buen Camino
/

 

[williemac]

Wake up and smell the coffee Willie. I've dialogued with people on nearly
thirty different internet forums in the last 16 years and trust me; they all
defend their understanding of the Bible pretty much the very same way you
do: Spirit and all; and yet those same supposedly Spirit-led people are unable
to come to terms on elementary matters like the afterlife and eternal suffering.

Buen Camino
/

I am most able to come to terms with anything that is actually biblical truth, including the possibility of eternal suffering, which I used to believe. And I explained my path to my present conclusion specifically to assure you that my motive was not because I couldn't (emotionally) come to terms with anything. Apparently I never made that clear enough as you immediately insinuated my motive was different than what I tried to clarify.

But why don't you address the passages that I am sharing if you don't agree with my conclusions? Methinks the odor of coffee is being ignored alright, but not by me.
The bible does not say that humans will live forever automatically. It says that living forever is a gift that is given through faith and participation in Jesus. (again, John 6:50,51. try reading it) . The doctrine you are defending is dependent upon a lost human 'living forever' in torment. This amounts to a contradiction and a denial of John 6:50,51, John 3:16, Math 10:28, Gen.3:21, etc. (in my humble opinion) respectfully, William ;)

ps. I have dialogued with others for at least the same amount of time, both online and in person ...what's your point? Do you not defend your position and understanding? Do you not study, meditate, and pray about what you are reading, or do you merely just depend on personal intellect? It's not my place to suggest the worse in your case. (hint)

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Face up to it Willie: yours isn't a lone voice crying in the wilderness; no,
yours is just another set of lungs bellowing clichés, slogans, and toxic
rejoinders in lock-step with a very common status quo.

FYI: one of the more common stumbling blocks that I've encountered in the
last 16 years among people wearing the Christian label is their chronic
inability to discern between eternal life and longevity. For instance:

Had Adam tasted the tree of life; he would have gone on living indefinitely;
but not with eternal life; no, he would have gone on with human life; which
is a created kind of life that underwent its beginning in the book of Genesis;
as opposed to eternal life which, according to 1John 1:1-2, isn't a created
kind of life-- on the contrary: it's the creator's life. So then, since the creator
is an infinite being, then eternal life is infinite too. In other words: eternal
life is a quality of life that never underwent a beginning, nor will it ever
undergo an end.

In the statements below; note the grammatical tense of the "have" verb. It's
in the present tense; indicating that recipients of eternal life have it not later
on, but right now-- no delay and no waiting period.

†. John 3:36 . .He who believes in the Son has eternal life

†. John 6:47 . .Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

†. John 5:24 . .I assure you, those who heed my message and trust in God
who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins,
but they have already passed from death into life.

†. 1John 5:13 . .I write these things to you who believe in the name of the
Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

FAQ: if believers have eternal life; then why do they die just like everybody
else?

ANSWER: were I invited to speak to a Catholic catechism class; I would
select as my subject eternal life because I know from my own experience as
a Catholic of 24 years that the average rank and file pew warmer doesn't
know the difference between eternal life and immortality.

According to John 5:26-27 and 1John 1:1-2 Jesus had eternal life when he
was here. However, according to Rom 6:9 he didn't obtain immortality until
his resurrection.

In the same manner: according to John 3:36, John 5:24, John 6:47, and
1John 5:13 believers have eternal life right now— no delay and no waiting
period. However, according to Rom 8:23-25 and 1Cor 15:35-54, believers
won't have immortality until their resurrections. So then, as with Jesus, a
believer's eternal life has zero to do with the longevity of their human body;
viz: eternal life is a spirit kind of life as opposed to immortality which is a
physical kind of life.

FAQ: from whence do believers obtain this spirit kind of life?

ANSWER: by undergoing the birth about which Jesus spoke at John 3:3-8.

†. John 3:6 . . Flesh gives birth to flesh, but The Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Spirit that's born of The Spirit is invisible. It cannot be seen by the unaided
human eye with any more ease than seeing the vacuum of space. In point of
fact, it's quite possible to be standing right next to someone in an elevator
car and not be able to detect that they have eternal life.

†. John 3:8 . .The wind moves about wherever it pleases. You hear its
sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is
with everyone born of The Spirit.

Just how important is the possession of eternal life? Well; according to God's
testimony, as an expert witness in all matters pertaining to eternal life:
people who lack it, lack His son; viz: they are quite christless.

†. 1John 5:11-12 . . This is what God has testified: He has given us eternal
life, and this life is in His son. So whoever has God's son has the life;
whoever does not have the life, does not have His son.

The christless are in grave danger of the wrath of God.

†. Rom 8:9 . . If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not
belong to Christ.


Buen Camino
/

 

[williemac]

Nice reply, my brother. However, you did not address anything about living forever. You spoke of eternal life and how we receive it, to which I have no objections or disputes. Why do you insist one avoiding the obvious, though? Jesus gave an alternative destiny in John 3:16 to eternal life. He said that those who attain it would not perish...meaning that those who do not attain it will perish instead.

As well, are you avoiding John 6:50,51, or have you just not gotten around to it yet? Jesus said there that they who partake of His flesh would not die but live forever. This is different than the term eternal life. There is no dancing around it or coming up with clever comments or definitions. Living forever is all about duration of life. It is about how long one will live. And Jesus gave another scenario for those who fail to live forever. He said they would die.

You can insult me all you want, bro, but it has no effect on me or my belief, nor does it do anything to somehow show you are correct and myself wrong. Insults are petty. They reveal more about the insulter than they do about the insulted.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
FYI: one of the more common stumbling blocks that I've encountered in the
last 16 years among people online wearing the Protestant label is their chronic
inability to understand what it means to perish. For example:

†. Matt 5:30 . . If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it
from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish,
than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

The koiné Greek word for "perish" in that statement is apollumi (ap-ol'-loo
mee) which is an ambiguous word; viz: it has more than one meaning
depending upon the context. One of those meanings is "lost"

†. Luke 15:4 . . Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of
them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after
the lost sheep until he finds it?

There are people who insist that apollumi always means to remove
something completely out of existence. But really now, if that shepherd's
lost sheep was gone completely out of existence; the Lord wouldn't have
called it lost, he would have called it gone forever. Out west here in the USA,
cattle ranchers call lost cows "strays", indicating that the cows have
wandered off on their own. For example:

†. Isa 53:6 . . All we, like sheep, have gone astray; we have turned every
one to his own way; and The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Another application of apollumi is the termination of life. For example:

†. Matt 10:28 . . Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill
the soul. Rather, be afraid of The One who can destroy both soul and body in
hell.

The word for "destroy" in that statement is apollumi; which in context with
Matt 10:28 doesn't mean to remove from existence; but simply to
assassinate.

The crucial aspect of the people whom The One will assassinate in hell, is that
although they end up deceased; their bodies won't be removed from existence;
but rather, according to the Bible; they will be preserved as perpetual
nourishment for a curious species of fire-proof worm. And they'll also be on
public display like the remains of those prehistoric animals in the museum of
the La Brea Tar Pits in Los Angeles.

†. Isa 66:22-24 . . All humanity will come to worship me from week to week
and from month to month. And as they go out, they will see the dead bodies
of those who have rebelled against me. For the worms that devour them will
never die, and the fire that burns them will never go out. All who pass by
will view them with utter horror.

†. Mark 9:47-48 . . If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It is better to
enter the kingdom of God half blind than to have two eyes and be thrown
into hell; where the worm never dies and the fire never goes out.

So then, since the dead bodies of the people slated for assassination as per
Matt 10:28 won't go out of existence, then I think it's pretty safe to conclude
that their dead souls won't go out of existence either.

The question oft arises that if people are assassinated body and soul;
then how is it possible for them to exist in hell in conscious suffering? Well;
the answer to that question is pretty simple. According to 1Pet 3:18-20 and
Heb 12:23, deceased people are even now existing in the afterlife as spirits.

One of my favorite examples of life after death is Jonah. Prior to his
resurrection; Jonah lay dead in a fish's tummy for three days and three
nights. During that time, Jonah was also at the roots of the mountains. It
goes without saying that the roots of the mountains are not in a fish's
tummy, but in the earth. So, in order for Jonah to be in the earth and in the
fish's tummy at the same time-- literally in two places at once --he had to
exist in two forms at once. The same happened to Jesus. While he lay in a
tomb on the surface of the earth, Jesus was simultaneously somewhere in
the bowels of the earth; viz: two places at once. (Matt 12:40)

To Whom It May Concern: If any of your kin have passed on scorning the
eternal gospel as per post #1; they are now consciously existing in a
superheated holding area awaiting their day in court at the Great White
Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15. And you know what's on their
minds right about now? Well; I'll tell you what's on their minds. According to
Luke 16:28 they're fraught with worry that you will follow them right down
there to the very same place.

Buen Camino
/

 

[williemac]

I don't like the use of labels myself.
In Math.10:28, Jesus said to not fear they who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. I guess that would include God, then if He cannot kill both. Why should we fear Him?
But in regards to the word "perish", a word study is useless if it is used to nullify the use of the word in a particular context. In John 3:16, Jesus promised that eternal life is the alternative to perishing. So whatever that word means in that context, it cannot be the same as eternal life. (life that goes on forever).
There is also a chronic habit in many Christian circles to change the meaning of words in order to uphold a particular teaching or belief or doctrine.
But if we simply look at the context in any passage, we can often rule out incorrect conclusions that arise form it. Case in point. Have you looked at John 6:50,51, yet? Is living forever the destiny of all or just those who partake of Jesus?

And by the way, a worm not dying, and a fire not going out, signifies a permanent state, as you would also agree. However, those two phrases do not say anything about whether the person is alive or dead in that state. A corpse is a corpse. It is a lifeless body. And we know that it will be prevented from decay. BUT! How do we go from there to a person living in a conscious living state of everlasting torment?

The second death, as Math.10:28 says, is when both body and soul are destroyed. (or are we changing that word as well?)

Your last comment is not unreasonable. In the first death, the body dies but not the soul. There is most certainly much anguish, worry and torment, weeping, and gnashing of teeth, in Hades. I would not wish that on anyone. But this is not the end. There is a final judgment and a second death.

How does anyone not see the contradiction in first agreeing that people will perish, die, be destroyed, not live forever, not have everlasting life, not have eternal life, but yet insisting these also remain in a conscious state forever?

But we are off topic.