A Difficult Conversation

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Stan

New Member
Jul 19, 2012
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Unfortunately, unbelievers haven't committed to Jesus and therefore don't appreciate faith per se.
Many people judge God based on their understanding of morals and a certain amount of logic. God is so far above our understanding that He defies understanding, which is why we are to believe and submit to Him. Sounds trite but it is true. One day, ALL will be revealed to us. We will KNOW as we have been known.
The fact is, God didn't make another plan after Adam & Eve failed, His plan was ALL encompassing and all fulfilling before He ever created this world. Jesus reflects on "counting the cost" in as follows;
Luke 14:28
“Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it?
God counted ALL the costs and ramifications before He ever started a thing. Nothing has, does, or will happen that God has not foreseen and dealt with already.
 

neophyte

Member
Apr 25, 2012
669
12
18
Unfortunately, unbelievers haven't committed to Jesus and therefore don't appreciate faith per se.
Many people judge God based on their understanding of morals and a certain amount of logic. God is so far above our understanding that He defies understanding, which is why we are to believe and submit to Him. Sounds trite but it is true. One day, ALL will be revealed to us. We will KNOW as we have been known.
The fact is, God didn't make another plan after Adam & Eve failed, His plan was ALL encompassing and all fulfilling before He ever created this world. Jesus reflects on "counting the cost" in as follows;
Luke 14:28
“Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it?
God counted ALL the costs and ramifications before He ever started a thing. Nothing has, does, or will happen that God has not foreseen and dealt with already.

Including leaving us with His Teaching Apostolic Church guided by the Holy Spirit [ Pentecost } and giving His power and authority to His Apostles i.e. forgiveness of sins { John 20;23 ] Jesus left His power of forgiveness with His Church with the successors of His apostles when He said: " Whose sins" YOU" shall forgive, they are forgiven."

And all the biblical "ordained" presbyters/ priests, successors of the apostles acting as God's instruments after He {Jesus ] returns with the Father in Heaven , acknowledge this sacrament from Our Lord : ----" For what I have pardoned .... I have done it in the person of Christ" [ 2nd Cor. 2:10 ]
 

day

New Member
Aug 2, 2012
169
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Idaho, USA
God created intelligent beings for mutual love and fellowship with himself. He gave them free will because there can be no love without free will.

By believing Satan when he told them that God was deliberately withholding good from them, Adam and Eve declared by their action that God's character was not entirely good and his words and intentions could not be trusted. This mistrust of God has become part of our DNA and is the "original sin" that we are all guilty of. Jesus died to remove the guilt of this sin for the whole world. His perfect trust in the Father even through death on a Roman cross reversed Adam's declaration. This allows us receive the Holy Spirit and to ask forgiveness for our personal failings.

The joy of having all the holy angels and righteous people with him forever is his reason for creation in spite of knowing that not everyone would choose him. I believe that those who do not choose him perish (not burn forever). I also believe that eventually even the evil angles in the lake of fire perish because I do not believe God will sustain the existence of a creature simply to torture it once justice is satisfied. It is just that in Satan's case, it will take a really, really long time to satisfy justice.
 

us2are1

Son Of Man
Sep 14, 2011
895
26
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I am not sure how to handle this.

I have been witnessing to a friend of mine and he is a very sincere and intelligent guy.

No pressure. Random conversations, mostly initiatiated by him.

But he brought up something I could not answer for him offhand.......

He said, "From what I understand, God created all things including the world and man. And as he did that he knew what was going to happen from that moment until the end of time, right?" I agreed.

So he said, "That means that even as he created Adam, he knew Adam and Eve were going to disobey him and bring ruin on all mankind, right?" I agreed.

His reply was, "So God knew, even as he blew life into Adam that the result was going to be the fall of all mankind and the necessity of having his son die on the cross to pay the penalty for that sin." I said yes.

Hie reply was, "Why?"

He wanted to know why God would go through with the creation of Adam and Eve even as he knew they would disobey doom all mankinds to follow.
He wanted to know who exactly Jesus was paying the penalty to.
He wanted to know why that mistake by Adam and Eve would require that Jesus have to die in order to give those that came after him the chance to have sin that was on their life just for being born to be taken away.

He wanted to know why God was bound by what happened with Adam and Eve and why, if he truly was a benevolent and loving God, he would allow it to happen in a way that eventually will end up having hundreds of millions if not billions of his children - who didn't ask to be created - spending eternity in hell.

He said to me, "I know you have told me that Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins, but he paid a penalty that was in place only because his father created people that he knew were going to bring about that penalty."

He asked, "Why did God allow this? Who did Jesus pay the penalty of our sins TO? Why was God responsible for letting his own son be killed in order to pay the penalty, but those that don't know him or choose to follow him are still going to spend eternity in hell?"

He said, "I am sorry, but what I am hearing is that I have to change my life and follow Jesus in order to avoid a penalty that I earned just because I was born - just because God created me.
A penalty I am held accountable for because God created two flawed people several thousand years ago that he knew even as he created them, were going to disobey and doom billions of people to follow."

He said, "Apparently I am God's creation and I could suffer eternity in hell if I don't follow him and obey his every requirement. Well, I didn't ask to be born and I find it terribly unfair that I could suffer eternal damnation because God - who is supposed to be perfect - created mankind the way he did. How is that love?"

His final words were hard for me:
He said, "You say that God loves me so much that he had his son die for my sins so now all I have to do is follow him and my sins are forgiven. You leave out the part that the only reason I was born under sin is because God put me there in the first place. He knew even as he created Adam that Adam was going to sin and thus my eternal salvation would be in danger. How exactly am I to see him as an all powerful ALL LOVING God?"

I must confess, I wasn't sure how to address that for him. Especially in one sit-down conversation in the booth of a restaurant.

I am just smart enough to know that God doesn't answer to us, and He loves us intimately.

But that wasn't the answer to placate him.

God began the start of a finished and perfect product.

"The people of God".

For Gods portion is His people.

Christ was the firstborn over all creation and God created man in His Image.

None of you were created yet for God the creator to consult with to find out what was the best way to accomplish this task.

So He framed it all by His own almighty knowledge and wrote the book and started it in motion.

Every thing is right on schedule and going smoothly.
 

MTPockets

New Member
Aug 4, 2012
155
15
0
Hi! 'Foreigner'

A real dilemma these sort of questions can cause.
But none which don't have a proper and just answer though.
How 'bout I warn you first:
If you sincerely desire the answers, then be prepared to be a renegade to some of your dearest beliefs.

I've attempted to capsule your discussion into pointed questions.
Please take a look at the multi-questions below and edit accordingly so that I can become better equipped to offer you a full and complete answer.
I'm not the Pope; I'm not infallible. I'm merely a scribe of the Kingdom.
Oh, an' another thing:
If you thought the answers were gonna' be neat an' tidy ... perhaps even short ... you'd be wrong.
Why should I be saying that? Well, if you didn't have your head filled with so many dubious misconceptions about God and His eternal purposes and intent for man, it would only require a tenth of the time and effort to get through to you.
So, what yuh say?
But don't be asking me to spoon-feed you what will be lengthy explanations if you don't have the patience and earnest desire to wade through what is required. After all, do you wish to own the truth for yourself or simply be able to parrot it to your friend?
I apologize for my abrupt and direct way of chattin' yuh, but that's jus' my style. I don't mean any harm. It's better if we both know what we're in for, right?

-->
Edited below:

I just hurriedly glanced at your Profile ... WOW! You have 1,746 Posts to your name and have been a Member here since 2010 and you still remain unable to answer these kinna' questions? To tell you the truth, it should be ME asking YOU these questions!
Anyways, let's jus' say that God first found me in a land of stolen spirits some 40 years ago. Because I was such a spiritual and psychological disaster at the time, over these forty years since these questions you have have asked have also been mine long ago at the beginnings of my being lifted out of the miry clay of my misery.
I hardly discovered the answers in a church; although, I diligently sought after them there.
I found the answers by the Lord providing me a dear Christian friend who remained closer than a brother through the darkest nights and deepest valleys; and, yes, often in deep prayer too.
<--

Here are the questions. Remedy them to better ask what you are needing answered.

1. Was God already already aware that Adam and Eve were going to disobey Him and bring about the ruin of mankind. If so, why did He risk such an event to happen and grieviously damage humankind as it has?
2. Who demanded the wages/penalty of sin?
3. Who receives the sacrifices for sin's forgiveness?
4. What caused Jesus to be the prime candidate for the Calvary sacrifice?
5. Why would a loving and merciful God insist to send people to eternal hell when it was caused by a flawed experiment that He was responsible for?
6. Why do I have to get saved jus' to avoid a penalty that I wouldn't have deserved if God had of done things right the first time around? How is that supposed to be love?
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
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West Coast
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Hi! 'Foreigner'

A real dilemma these sort of questions can cause.
But none which don't have a proper and just answer though.
How 'bout I warn you first:
If you sincerely desire the answers, then be prepared to be a renegade to some of your dearest beliefs.

I've attempted to capsule your discussion into pointed questions.
Please take a look at the multi-questions below and edit accordingly so that I can become better equipped to offer you a full and complete answer.
I'm not the Pope; I'm not infallible. I'm merely a scribe of the Kingdom.
Oh, an' another thing:
If you thought the answers were gonna' be neat an' tidy ... perhaps even short ... you'd be wrong.
Why should I be saying that? Well, if you didn't have your head filled with so many dubious misconceptions about God and His eternal purposes and intent for man, it would only require a tenth of the time and effort to get through to you.
So, what yuh say?
But don't be asking me to spoon-feed you what will be lengthy explanations if you don't have the patience and earnest desire to wade through what is required. After all, do you wish to own the truth for yourself or simply be able to parrot it to your friend?
I apologize for my abrupt and direct way of chattin' yuh, but that's jus' my style. I don't mean any harm. It's better if we both know what we're in for, right?

-->
Edited below:

I just hurriedly glanced at your Profile ... WOW! You have 1,746 Posts to your name and have been a Member here since 2010 and you still remain unable to answer these kinna' questions? To tell you the truth, it should be ME asking YOU these questions!
Anyways, let's jus' say that God first found me in a land of stolen spirits some 40 years ago. Because I was such a spiritual and psychological disaster at the time, over these forty years since these questions you have have asked have also been mine long ago at the beginnings of my being lifted out of the miry clay of my misery.
I hardly discovered the answers in a church; although, I diligently sought after them there.
I found the answers by the Lord providing me a dear Christian friend who remained closer than a brother through the darkest nights and deepest valleys; and, yes, often in deep prayer too.
<--

Here are the questions. Remedy them to better ask what you are needing answered.

1. Was God already already aware that Adam and Eve were going to disobey Him and bring about the ruin of mankind. If so, why did He risk such an event to happen and grieviously damage humankind as it has?
2. Who demanded the wages/penalty of sin?
3. Who receives the sacrifices for sin's forgiveness?
4. What caused Jesus to be the prime candidate for the Calvary sacrifice?
5. Why would a loving and merciful God insist to send people to eternal hell when it was caused by a flawed experiment that He was responsible for?
6. Why do I have to get saved jus' to avoid a penalty that I wouldn't have deserved if God had of done things right the first time around? How is that supposed to be love?

Oh boy....he is not going to like this....haha

I like your questions - I think I will try answering them

1. Was God already already aware that Adam and Eve were going to disobey Him and bring about the ruin of mankind. If so, why did He risk such an event to happen and grieviously damage humankind as it has?

A&E were created to love God and each other - in order to love perfectly, you have to be self aware. Dogs can express affection and bond to their pack, but they cannot love. Unfortunately, with self awareness comes the ability to misuse creation. A&E made a choice to misuse a certain tree in the Garden, which I believe became known as the notorious Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil after they misused it. It seems to me that they could have misused any part of the Garden or each other and the result would have been the same. I am a Molinist so I believe God knew all of the scenarios that could have played out in the Garden. In all cases, Jesus would have come for us and provided what we needed the most - unfortunately, in our Fallen circumstances, we needed His sacrifice.

2. Who demanded the wages/penalty of sin?

No one demanded it - the wages of sin (misuse of creation) is death, period. I think this question brings up the issue of the Trinity and Time. God is one - in our Fallen state we can only perceive Him as three. The only way to accurately describe His true nature is both One and Three. It is sort of like trying to describe a light particle/wave - it's true nature is both. Also, I believe the incident in the Garden was followed immediately by God's forgiveness - since A&E had no concept of forgiveness - God gave them the experience, which involved the breaking of their relationship (Fall) / God reaching out to humanity (Father) / God's example of perfect love (Christ's life and death) God's broken heart (Christ on the Cross) / Our redemption (Holy Spirit). We view history through the lens of linear time - God views it as instantaneous. I believe that Forgiveness is the highest form of love and it is the good thing that God brought out of the Fall of Humanity - not that it was worth it, but God always makes outcomes better than they were even when creation gets broken.

3. Who receives the sacrifices for sin's forgiveness?

God sacrificed His heart (Jesus) for us, which was broken on the Cross. We receive God's forgiveness, which is the highest form of love.

4. What caused Jesus to be the prime candidate for the Calvary sacrifice?

Jesus is God and was a perfect human being because He loved perfectly, just as we were created to do - this included sacrificing Himself for us.

5. Why would a loving and merciful God insist to send people to eternal hell when it was caused by a flawed experiment that He was responsible for?

People who choose to refuse God's forgiveness / justification / sanctification / redemption will choose Hell over the agony and anguish of spending eternity in the presence of a Holy God. They will scurry into the darkness like roaches at the Judgment. Hell is God's Justice and His Mercy.

6. Why do I have to get saved jus' to avoid a penalty that I wouldn't have deserved if God had of done things right the first time around? How is that supposed to be love?

Getting saved means accepting God's forgiveness (justification) and learning how to love perfectly, as we were created to do (sanctification) so that we can return God's love to Him and our neighbors (redemption) and spend eternity as we were designed to do (citizenship in Heaven). I think you may be under the mistaken idea that you are being asked to save God from His mistake in the Garden - in that case, you've got reality backwards. Remember my description of God as the Good Parent? We need to remember that we do not need to parent ourselves, which only leads to chaos, disorder, and selfishness. God is totally in control of reality - we are not abandoned. The Bible calls it 'trying to be our own gods', which is accurate - I am a counselor and I have watched the destruction that occurs when children believe they have to parent themselves and so the parent analogy speaks clearly to me.
 

MTPockets

New Member
Aug 4, 2012
155
15
0
1. Was God already already aware that Adam and Eve were going to disobey Him and bring about the ruin of mankind. If so, why did He risk such an event to happen and grieviously damage humankind as it has?

A&E were created to love God and each other - in order to love perfectly, you have to be self aware. Dogs can express affection and bond to their pack, but they cannot love. Unfortunately, with self awareness comes the ability to misuse creation. A&E made a choice to misuse a certain tree in the Garden, which I believe became known as the notorious Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil after they misused it. It seems to me that they could have misused any part of the Garden or each other and the result would have been the same. I am a Molinist so I believe God knew all of the scenarios that could have played out in the Garden. In all cases, Jesus would have come for us and provided what we needed the most - unfortunately, in our Fallen circumstances, we needed His sacrifice.

HI! 'Aspen2'

Howz 'bout we conduct this heavenly interrogation with you as the good cop an' me as the bad cop? :)

Oh, before we start, let's recap our "Christian Discussion Forum Rights" (aka - Miranda) :
1. We have the right to remain led by the Spirit of Truth. Nevertheless, we may elect to blindly parrot what our Pastor has declared as being true without penalty.
2. We have the right to quote from those Bible teachings pronounced by our favorite spiritual sociopaths whose only known specialty is trafficking in disturbing news and passing on destructive prophetic rumors. However, we shall not compel anyone to hear the audio of the same.
3. We have the right to have a recent Bible College graduate sit on our lap to assist in our discussion points. Should he refuse, a Sunday School teacher can temporarily be appointed to jog alongside us.

Now, that we got the ground rules laid out ... let's get on with my response to the 1st question:
--->

There are of course many degrees of responding to this posed question. But our knowledge is somewhat restrained because the information which the Bible gives is attached to time; meaning: it does not tell us anything about the eternity before the creation, nor about the age after the re-creation is accomplished. The Bible simply begins with the telling about the creation of a first heaven and earth and ends with an account of the re-created or new heaven and earth.

Yet, there is this primary answer: that God is seeking a worthy partner. James 4:5 says that God seeks "jealously the spirit He made to dwell in us". God's desire is to unite with human spirits. God is seeking a fellowship of love and cooperation with every man.
(The reason that every man and woman have the intrinsic desire for a mate is because our inner being was created in the image of God Who possesses similar desires and yearning).

God wanted to give from Himself; He wanted us to be a part of Him. God wanted a partner to whom He could give Himself completely in love and in whom He could rejoice throughout eternity. This partner would be able to return His love and have an enormous amount of possibilities and thus God would never lose interest in him. This partner would be able to be participate and cooperate in all of God's plans.

The Creator gave man a part of Himself. From the very beginnings, He gave man a spiritual-oriented spirit enabling him to direct himself to God. This partner would be on God's level. A partner able to live in an atmosphere of pure love and who would, from out of their free will, dedicate all their created abilities and talents to a relationship in complete dependence on God. A being in whom God could be "all in all", (1Cor 15:28).

No, God wasn't thinking of a second God. Rather, He thought of a worthy partner that would fit Him perfectly and harmoniously. A woman to God, after His image and likeness. We could describe it as "complementary" to God; completely belonging to one another, in existence and works. Yet, it cannot be said that man is somehow equal to God. God created man with qualities and abilities which correspond to what is in Him. He created a human being that was completely complementary to His own being. Not a being that was identical to God, but a being who fitted God harmoniously in every aspect.

All of God's plans and purposes are based on the thought of His longing for a worthy partner. So, it would be man who would be created as "God's son"; born from God, and to God, and would grow into an adult son. Man, with his (by God) created potential to grow into a mankind, who as God's wife would live with Him until eternity. (The counterfeit image is the whore who is seated at the front of many waters and who is related to the beast from the abyss, (1Cor 6:16,17; Rev 17).

The institution of a marriage between man and woman as recorded in Genesis underlines the essential truth about the relationship between God and man. Marriage is sacred because it is an image of the unification of God and man. In this perfect marriage the fruit of God is born out of the seed of God; (eg: God is the 'Man' and the seed is His Word). The resulting fruit produces the believing person; the child of God.

God created the heaven and the earth and all things therein to acquire this woman. In the Garden of Eden, God had us envisioned. There would be a heaven and an earth, richly and abundantly provided with all possibilities and means to prepare that man for his godly destiny.

Why did God create the heaven AND the earth? We might be inclined to say that these worlds cannot be complimentary to each other. But the very opposite is true. The visible, material world does not exist independently on its own. It is influenced, carried and controlled from the spiritual world. Heaven exists for earth and earth exists for heaven. They "belong" to each other; they are complementary to each other.

God is not only King of heaven, but also of earth. It is especially with regard to man, that God created these two worlds.

What does this mean when the Scripture says that God blew the breath of life into his nostrils? In the original Hebrew text a word is used, (neshamah), which is translated as "spirit"; also in other Old Testament verses too, (Job 26:4 and Prov 20:27). The breath of life is not something "material", but something "spiritual". We could say that the soul connects spirit with matter, the spirit with the body. Perhaps even better said, because the soul lies enclosed in the human spirit, the spiritual body of man has the ability to form a unity with the natural body and functions in it as "neshamah".

In Isaiah 57:16 the word "neshamah" is translated with "soul". Therefore, God gave man something which can be described in words as breath of life, spirit and soul. Therefore, blowing the breath of life indicates the formation of the inner man which is formed from the elements of the invisible world (heaven) which enabled man to function in the spiritual world.

Paul speaks of the eyes of your understanding, (Eph 1:18), the eyes of your heart. Of Jesus it was said that he perceived in His spirit, (Mark 2:8). The spirit of man can therefore "see"; he has spiritual eyes. The book of the Revelation states, "he who has ears, let him hear". So, man not only has natural eyes and ears, but also spiritual senses with which he can perceive the invisible things in the spiritual world. Because man can "hold on to something" in the spiritual world; he also has spiritual hands. In Ephesians 6 we are called to put on the spiritual armor and to clothe our inner man with it. Paul was not speaking here about our natural hands, feet, head and loins, but about our spiritual. In John 13:31 it says that Jesus was troubled in spirit. His spiritual heart was moved. Man therefore not only has a natural, but also a spiritual heart. This is how we understand the meaning of Proverbs 23:26, "My son, give me your heart". This is about our spiritual heart, the core of our life.

In many ways, the inner man was created similar to the heavenly being of angels. The description of angelic beings lend a clear image of a body. Therefore, our inner man has the shape of a body. Man has, as do the angels of God, spiritual eyes and ears. He can, just as the angels, speak in the spiritual world with a spiritual mouth. He has a spiritual heart and spiritual hands and feet. Man has, just as the angels do, a spiritual body by means of which he can function in the spiritual world. This is how God created us.

However, an angel is created for the spiritual world, for an existence in one world. Plants and animals were created for the natural world, they live only on earth.

It must be said that the spiritual heart of man was created and intended as a higher level than that of an angel. Angels cannot assume a physical shape because they do not possess a natural body. Neither do they have a soul. They are spirits and not men, having no flesh and bones, (Luke 24:39).

But the most important distinction between an angel and a man is that the spirit of man has the ability to grow and develop; to mature. Angels do not have this ability; it was not imparted to their spiritual hearts. The angels are created spirits without genetic development whose task it is to serve man in his development towards the Creator's ultimate intention for him.

So, the spiritual heart of man is something specifically "human" which contains and holds all abilities that God gave to man. The word "soul" describes our being human; while the word "heart" describes the very inner being of man.

Man is a unique creation of God, the highest being that is formed in heaven and on earth. It's not for nothing that the Scripture says that man is the crown of God's creation. God created man for a life in two worlds simultaneously. Because of this, all the laws of the invisible world flow together with the unique principle of growth and development which is the basis of the visible world. In man, the material and immaterial is clenched together in one being. Man, together with God, could and would be able to rule both the heaven and the earth. That's how God thought of it all "in the beginning" and continues to think of it in this very day.

God established a unique principle of growth and maturity in this human being. From this perfect starting point, man could grow into an adulthood which God had pictured: a life on a level worthy to God. Therefore, it's not without cause that the psalmist sang: "For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and have crowned him with glory and honor. You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet", (Ps 8:5,6). The Psalm does not point to the imperfect man (nature), but to the still immature man, (stature).

The "let them have dominion" must be understood in all it's fullness. The dominion of man(kind) over all created things is only possible from a heavenly position. Not merely a being that only lives on earth. No, a being who has a relationship with the Creator of the earth, to someone who finds himself on the same level as that Creator, and who can work with all possibilities that position offers.

The inner man is a beautiful "composition"; it is not divided. When the Bible uses the word "soul", both the inner core of the person as well as the person as a whole is indicated; because they are inseparably interconnected as one. The personality of man is seated in his most inner being which permeates every fibre of both his natural and spiritual body. The word "soul" encompasses the unseen characteristics of the being "man". No other creature is addressed in such a manner.

Paul writes that the natural comes first and afterwards that which is spiritual, (1Cor 15:46). This was and remains for all men; including Adam. No one can gain understanding of the heavenly realities, if there is not first an awareness of the natural things. This is why Adam and Eve are introduced to us as living a completely naturally orientated life; naming the animals and other earthly duties associated with his dominion over the visible world.

The narrative about Adam and Even in the Garden of Eden is telling us about the beginning of a new stage in the life of the man which God had created. It shows clearly that Adam did not initially live in paradise. In verse 15 we read: "The Lord took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to till it and keep it".

The plan of God intends that man come to both a natural and spiritual maturity. To enable the first couple to achieve this task, God intended that man to be filled with His Spirit. However, this could only be achieved after a period of spiritual preparation and growing. To this end the Lord God put man in the 'Garden of Eden', (Genesis 2:15) This garden is a shadow image of the heavenly realms where the "man-in-Christ" will be educated and introduced to "all kinds of spiritual blessings" making Him a "son of God", (Ephesians 1:3).

Outside the Garden the rule had been: "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food".
However, inside the garden there was one tree, the fruit of which man was not allowed to eat: "You may freely eat of every tree of the garden but of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die", (Gen 1:29 & 2:16-17). So, just as an eclipse, the garden of Eden had two centers: the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The narrative about Adam and Eve dwelling in the Garden of Eden is speaking to us about the beginning of the spiritual part of their lives; their functioning in the invisible world of the spirits (heaven) and about equipping themselves spiritually to discern between good and evil in that dimension. We are reading about when man was in the position to start his journey to the throne of God!

The first man (Adam and his offspring) were brought into existence to fulfill this assignment of the Creator: to rule the whole creation; both animate and inanimate. By means of a harmonious growth and with the subservience of a multitude of angels, the true man was intended to develop out of the first man. In a deeper sense, it indicated the way of rebirth which, according to our Bible, is absolutely necessary if man is to see the kingdom of God and enter it, (John 3).

If Adam and Eve wanted to become truly spiritual people they would have to take up their position in the heavenly places. They would never be able to reach the throne of God without meeting fallen angels on their way. This means they needed to have discernment of spirits. Entering into the Kingdom of heaven means: opening one's spirit for the inspiration and influence of the thoughts of God. In their inner man they would have to be able to discern the voice of God and close their spirit against the seducing inspiration of the Evil One who would try to block their way through the heavenly places to the throne of God. That is why Jesus said: "And the sheep follow Him, for they know his voice. A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of the strangers", (John 10:4-5).

The meaning of the earthly garden of Eden is derived from the unseen, spiritual, heavenly paradise. In the Kingdom of Heaven there are two centers: the kingdom of light and the kingdom of darkness; God and the devil. The trees in the midst of the garden were images of the invisible reality in the Kingdom of heaven; indicating the two opposing kingdoms.

Clearly, the Garden of Eden was not without its grave dangers because it was a picture of the heavenly places. The true knowledge of God shall, on the one hand, be worked through inspiration and, on the other hand, be received through faith. This is what the invisible world is about. The goal of this knowledge is that one understands how the visible and invisible things relate to one another as shadow and light, (2Cor 4:18). Toil and struggle were the divine instruction to Adam. He had to till the garden. To reach the purpose, man would have to strive to enter. Two kingdoms were represented in the garden. Adam had to learn to choose between life and death, between the truth of the Word of God and the error of the lies of the devil. He had to learn to abide only in the thoughts and the words of God and to obey without listening to the enemy. Jesus said: "He who keeps my Word has eternal life".

Although Adam and Eve had no knowledge of the heavenly places yet, they were not to be excused for what they did. Their insight into the natural world should have drawn their attention to the fact that a serpent who spoke with a human voice was a lawless creature. Adam and Eve knew the substance and the nature of all living creation and the way in which it was to behave. It was their duty to protect the garden from lawless intrusions. What should they have done? They should have seized the reptile and thrown it out of Eden. Instead, they allowed the dark evil forces to do their work in this animal and which successfully turned it into a tool of the devil.

The serpent had put itself at the service of the Evil One and opened itself up for him. Now it was cursed and surrendered to the demonic powers. These turned it into an outcast, a pariah of the animal world, whose purpose it is to injure and oppress creation.

The Evil One had taken possession of the serpent in much the same way as the demons later went into the herd of swine in the country of the Gadarenes. In allowing this the serpent had also elevated itself above its natural, earthly limitations and made itself available to the world of the occult. For this reason it was humiliated among the animals and pushed back to the earth where it belonged. The verdict was: "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all cattle, and above all wild animals; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat, all the days of your life".

The way things went with Adam and Eve was no different from what happens to so many Christians of our days: they were seduced 'by the activity of Satan with all power and with pretended signs and wonders', (2Thess 2:9).

People assume that all supernatural things are from God. We hear many Christians boasting about miraculous healings take place at some evangelistic meeting, about phenomenal forces which are at work where even strong men are thrown onto the floor. Whether these things are in accordance with the Bible, such a question is of minor importance to them. The masses are attracted by the miracles. People who are attracted by the tree of the knowledge of good and evil will be mesmerized by the powers of magic. They see forks and spoons being bent by mysterious forces and old watches start to tick again by means of the lawless powers of the kingdom of darkness All who seek miracles outside the confines of the faithful church will be deceived in the end.

In paradise the serpent opened a door into the kingdom of heaven by which man was enabled to 'climb in by another way'. By this we can recognize the 'thief and the robber'. In the mass healing campaigns, for instance, miracles are the main thing. The disappointments people have, become reasons to reject the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Lord taught us that healing and restoration of man will follow the preaching of the gospel.

The words Balaam's ass spoke were true, somebody may object. The animal was used by God. The words the slave girl cried after Paul and his companions were good words. With a loud voice she cried: "These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaims to you the way of salvation." (Acts 16:17). But Paul was annoyed by this seemingly positive interference of the Evil One, and in the name of Jesus he commanded the demon to depart. Balaam's ass had served its master throughout its life, and this had created such strong bonds between it and the occult world of the sorcerer that it spoke with a human voice, just as the serpent, and saw more clearly even than the double-hearted prophet.

Adam and Eve should have chased the serpent from the garden. This is a rule in the Kingdom of heaven. For a few moments only Eve refuted the tempting lies of the Evil One, but then she gave in to his subtle message. The first human couple did not obey the words of God precisely, and that is why they were removed from the garden. In our days let us be watchful that we do not sin in the same way as our ancestors by listening to the fantastic and dangerous lies of the Evil One. If we listen to. him we, too, will surely lose our contact with the Father and die. Let us instead eat of the tree of life in faith and obedience, and thus have eternal life.

The words of God in Genesis 3:19 could be paraphrased as follows: "As you now prove to, be dust, so you will return to dust". Carnal, natural man cannot enter the eternal Kingdom of God. He will not be changed in a moment; but die and enter into Hades, the realm of the dead. God now prevented man from further developing in the spiritual world.

Before, we saw that eating the fruits of both trees would stimulate man to become a spiritual being. Now God did not want this to happen any longer, for the Evil One was able to claim man for himself. Thus God sent the man and the woman forth from the garden of Eden, the image of the Kingdom of heaven, to return to the soil from which they had been taken.

As far as achieving His purpose was concerned, God thus abandoned the old creation. Henceforth, the best thing for man was to lead an ordinary natural life after the law. For man it would be best to use his spirit in understanding and developing the visible creation. His spirit was no longer allowed to rise up to share in the life of the heavenly places because of the grave dangers threatening there.

For that reason God placed cherubim at the east of the garden who had flaming swords which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life. The flaming blade is the image of the word of God which expresses His thoughts and commands. In the Old Covenant man, these words now applied: "The heavens are the Lord's heavens, but the earth He has given to the sons of men", (Psalm 115:16); Deutoronomy 29:29 also says; "The secret things belong to the Lord our God; but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law".

After Adam and Eve were sent out of Paradise, heaven became a closed region for men. For that reason Old Testament worship concerned itself with the visible natural things instead of with the invisible spiritual things. The Old Covenant had an earthly sanctuary and high priest and ceremonies. However, the law could not address the real causes of sin; the unseen evil spirits. By observing the law, one achieved righteousness by means of outward effort. On the other hand, the New Covenant revealed the things which had been "hidden since the foundation of the world", (Matt 13:35).

The New Covenant mentions the opened heavens. Paul wrote: "For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God", (Cor 2:10). He added: "Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God". So Paul here mentioned the depths of God, a walk, a struggle and a victory in the heavenly places. To us the Word of God says: "Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth", (Col 3:2).

At the east of Eden lies the land of Nod, (Gen 4:16). The word Nod means 'exile' or 'sojourn'. This is the place where Adam and Eve were sent. They were doomed to live as sojourners in a strange country. Their own soil, their proper place in the heavenlies, was closed for them. They could not return to the Garden of Eden, and similarly their inner beings (spirit) could not rise up to the regions for which they had been created.

The events in Garden of Eden is an image of the whole of mankind in which two figures play a central role. In the allegory of the Garden, they are called the "tree of life" and the "tree of knowledge of good and evil". To take away the claim of Sin and Death and the sins of the world, blood would have to be spilled. In fact, the whole offspring of the first man would have to be sacrificed in order to meet the claim of Death.

Jesus was to later tell the parable of the merchant and the pearls, (Matt 13:45,46), to illustrate the necessary heavenly transaction. After the Fall, all the pearls became "sold under the power of sin" and had fallen under the claim of Death through the sin of Adam, (Rom 5:12-14; 7:14). As the merchant of beautiful pearls, the devil has misled people and brought them under the claim of Death. He was fixated on having man cut off from his godly destiny.

However, the lustful merchant (the devil) was confronted with a very precious pearl, he became obsessed with it. In exchange of all the other pearls in his possession, the Pearl of exceeding value was handed over to him. The devil thought he had won because he recognized that he had encountered the sinless and therefore legal heir of God; the man who is called the "Son of the Almighty", (Luke 1:32-35).

Obtaining this Man would enable the devil to capture the throne of God and make him equal to the Almighty, ... or so he thought, (Isaiah 14:14). Blinded by passion, he did not understand that the death of the first man would cause his own demise. Neither he himself, nor his servants knew this. Otherwise, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory Who was utterly central in the "hidden wisdom of God", (1Cor 2:6-9).

On the other hand, the Lord Jesus was completely aware of this plan and surrendered Himself to it; even if it would lead to His death. Such was His love for the plan of God towards man!

The great secret of the natural or first man is that every separate human being carries within themselves a core of life, (akin to every natural seed) from which springs forth the new man which the Creator had originally intended. While it's true that through sin and it's consequence of coming under the claim of Death, this core is hindered in man, it is not perished.

The Fall of man caused his inner being to enter into a darkness. Yet, man did not lose his ability to be faithfully directed towards God; although this was now being pursued with a darkened mind and the help of shadowy images and parables. Man had remained with opportunity to consciously ponder and acquaint himself with the will of God. The Bible is an unbroken narrative of how, by His spirit, God lovingly kept directing Himself to man through the patriarchs and the prophets. He always took care to constantly inform man about His plan. In this context, we have the crucial Covenants, laws, ceremonies and promises which all relate to the revelation of the Savior, (Rom 9:4,5).

Ever since the glorification of the son as the First Born of the new creation, the (Re)creator works toward a new goal of perfection: the revelation of the many sons of God, who as the Body of Christ has the task of bringing about the true healing and restoration of the creation. The whole creation waits for this with a visible and audible eager longing, (Romans 8). According to His being, the (Re)creator continually provides the man He loves a hope for redemption. Man himself has to remain steadfast in this hope. To help man, God gave His Spirit who mightily pleads on behalf of the believer, (Romans 8:26).

We can now answer the question about who the true ruler is: He is the new man of whom our Lord Jesus is the First, (1Cor 15:20,23). This new man arises the moment he gives heed to the call of the gospel of Jesus Christ to awake from the sleep of death and to arise from among the dead. Christ will shine His light over this reborn or new born man because He is filled with the Holy Spirit of God which, in turn, enables him to rule in righteousness and authority over the works of God's hands, (Eph 5:14).

The final goal of the gospel of the kingdom is the completion of the plan of God concerning the whole creation. In this respect the Re-creator made a statement that says: "See, I make all things new!", (Rev 21:5).
 

Strat

Active Member
Mar 25, 2012
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How difficult it is for man to accept the absolute authority of God,search the bible and not a single statment can be found to "placate" man in any way,we accept absolute authority from the Boss at work,the police officer,commanders if you are in the military,we accept man's authority and question God's authority and judge it based on our own concepts of fairness....God put all issues of fairness to rest when he put Jesus on the cross....completely sinless and innocent his crucifixtion was the most unfair act that evere happened in human history.

The man or woman who wishes to use fairness as an excuse has no grounds to do so and is simply refusing to give up their pride and desire to have all things on their own terms and any emotion driven attempts to placate them regardless of intent or motives will fail....there is no answer for them except the words of Bible....repent or perish.

The modern church is looking for many answers that don't exist,among them answers for the man or woman who rejects God's terms in favor of their own.