A heretical teaching dismantled with the help of Paul the Evangelist.

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Illuminator

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No I do not agree, NOR support, erecting a mans IDEA of an image and bowing down before that image.
It's not the image that is being venerated, it's the prototype, and thouroughly biblical. Sadly, your hyper-literalism of one verse results in a stupid, ridiculous conclusion.

THE INCARNATION PRINCIPLE

There is, in the Catholic vision of reality, a profound understanding of the impenetration of matter by grace which we call the Incarnational principle. The Incarnation of God the Son as Jesus Christ is the bedrock which underlies the Christian vision of the relationship between God and man. In assuming a human nature, God demonstrates at once that creation, including human nature, is not only good but is capable of being further elevated through the impenetration of the Divine life.

This is the basis of the entire sacramental system, which uses outward (material) signs to transmit to us a share of God’s life, from the initiation of the believer’s journey in Baptism to its conclusion in Anointing of the Sick. It is the basis of the Church, a visible society which itself serves as a living connection between God and man, a sort of meta-sacrament for the transmission and embodiment of grace. It is even the basis for all of society, which begins with a proper understanding of matrimony, which St. Paul tells us is a model for the relationship of Christ and the Church. For in matrimony a man and a woman join in a profound sanctifying union of both body and spirit, a union which is both faithful and fecund, generating new life.

This understanding of the goodness of creation, of matter, of humanity and of human joys and aspirations—and the lesson that this goodness is designed to be further filled, animated and elevated by the love of God—is so central to God’s plan that Christianity begins and ends with it. It begins with God’s self-emptying of glory as He takes on human flesh and it ends in the Resurrection of the glorified Christ, who henceforth forever retains His identity as man.

It ought to be obvious to just about everybody that no other religion incorporates this particular (and particularly profound) understanding of the relationship of nature to nature’s God. Every human philosophy inevitably makes too much of nature or too little, and sometimes both at once, as in modern secularism which sees nature as all and so ignores that to which it points. What may be surprising, however, is that even among Christians those who have doctrinally fallen away from Rome have largely lost the unique and special wholeness of this Christian vision. Thus, from its beginning, Protestantism has been preoccupied with what it regards as the depravity of human nature, its radical incapacity for goodness, its reliance on grace as on something which supplants man’s nature rather than penetrates it.

Here we find the cause of Protestantism’s inability to understand the importance of works to salvation, which led Luther to revise Scripture and declare the letter of St. James to be apocryphal. Here also we have the root of Calvin’s notion that some are predestined for heaven and others for hell by nothing but the arbitrary will of God. Nor are we surprised to find Protestant sects which have outlawed the celebration of Christmas itself, distrusting the human values and human joy which Christmas both represents and fulfills. Indeed, from the point of view of nature, Protestantism must be described as a very thin, a very incomplete religion.

By contrast, Catholicism flowers in nature, transforming and elevating not only man himself but man’s culture. The astonishing achievements of Catholic culture over two millennia—in art and literature, sculpture and architecture, education and government, work and play, fast and feast—are one and all rooted in the Incarnational principle. The sense that the human body is itself a repository of grace, a temple of the Holy Spirit, fosters a unique Catholic mode of being in which the mind and spirit are never alone, never cut off. Rather man worships God in his body, and carries all of nature beyond itself in the quest to fulfill the very end of religion, which is for all creation to give glory to God.

Not in the abstract, then, is Catholic salvation worked out, but in the concrete; not in the general, but in the particular. The Catholic vision is not one of being “attached” to Christ, but of “putting on” Christ (Gal 3:27), not one of merely receiving an external gift, but of living the Christ life deep within—so that I live, no not I, but Christ lives in me (Gal 2:20). Each virtue is cultivated, each habit transformed and elevated, each relationship purified, each work ennobled. And the power for this continuous transformation is nourished—no, actually ingested—and formed into community through the Eucharist, the Word quite literally made Flesh, the Body and Blood really and actually present, not in figure or even in grace alone, but in its very substance.

Every Catholic is called to a life-long process of incorporating (I choose the word advisedly) his whole self, body and soul, into Christ, and not only his self but his loves, his labors, his own small creations, and the entire world over which he has been given dominion. This project, in which no detail is neglected or flattened, and no element lost or discarded, is unique to Catholicism. As I have said, it is a project rooted in the Incarnational principle. But even the Incarnational principle is not so much explained as demonstrated, not so much taught as lived. It was lived first by Christ Himself, born of Mary and protected by Joseph, in Bethlehem, in a stable, in a manger—and so at length in us.
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Illuminator

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The artist, image of God the Creator

1. None can sense more deeply than you artists, ingenious creators of beauty that you are, something of the pathos with which God at the dawn of creation looked upon the work of his hands. A glimmer of that feeling has shone so often in your eyes when—like the artists of every age—captivated by the hidden power of sounds and words, colours and shapes, you have admired the work of your inspiration, sensing in it some echo of the mystery of creation with which God, the sole creator of all things, has wished in some way to associate you.

That is why it seems to me that there are no better words than the text of Genesis with which to begin my Letter to you, to whom I feel closely linked by experiences reaching far back in time and which have indelibly marked my life. In writing this Letter, I intend to follow the path of the fruitful dialogue between the Church and artists which has gone on unbroken through two thousand years of history, and which still, at the threshold of the Third Millennium, offers rich promise for the future.

In fact, this dialogue is not dictated merely by historical accident or practical need, but is rooted in the very essence of both religious experience and artistic creativity. The opening page of the Bible presents God as a kind of exemplar of everyone who produces a work: the human craftsman mirrors the image of God as Creator. This relationship is particularly clear in the Polish language because of the lexical link between the words stwórca (creator) and twórca (craftsman).

What is the difference between “creator” and “craftsman”? The one who creates bestows being itself, he brings something out of nothing—ex nihilo sui et subiecti, as the Latin puts it—and this, in the strict sense, is a mode of operation which belongs to the Almighty alone. The craftsman, by contrast, uses something that already exists, to which he gives form and meaning. This is the mode of operation peculiar to man as made in the image of God. In fact, after saying that God created man and woman “in his image” (cf. Gn 1:27), the Bible adds that he entrusted to them the task of dominating the earth (cf. Gn 1:28). This was the last day of creation (cf. Gn 1:28-31). On the previous days, marking as it were the rhythm of the birth of the cosmos, Yahweh had created the universe. Finally he created the human being, the noblest fruit of his design, to whom he subjected the visible world as a vast field in which human inventiveness might assert itself.

God therefore called man into existence, committing to him the craftsman's task. Through his “artistic creativity” man appears more than ever “in the image of God”, and he accomplishes this task above all in shaping the wondrous “material” of his own humanity and then exercising creative dominion over the universe which surrounds him. With loving regard, the divine Artist passes on to the human artist a spark of his own surpassing wisdom, calling him to share in his creative power. Obviously, this is a sharing which leaves intact the infinite distance between the Creator and the creature, as Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa made clear: “Creative art, which it is the soul's good fortune to entertain, is not to be identified with that essential art which is God himself, but is only a communication of it and a share in it”.(1)

That is why artists, the more conscious they are of their “gift”, are led all the more to see themselves and the whole of creation with eyes able to contemplate and give thanks, and to raise to God a hymn of praise. This is the only way for them to come to a full understanding of themselves, their vocation and their mission.

The special vocation of the artist

2. Not all are called to be artists in the specific sense of the term. Yet, as Genesis has it, all men and women are entrusted with the task of crafting their own life: in a certain sense, they are to make of it a work of art, a masterpiece.

It is important to recognize the distinction, but also the connection, between these two aspects of human activity. The distinction is clear. It is one thing for human beings to be the authors of their own acts, with responsibility for their moral value; it is another to be an artist, able, that is, to respond to the demands of art and faithfully to accept art's specific dictates.(2) This is what makes the artist capable of producing objects, but it says nothing as yet of his moral character. We are speaking not of moulding oneself, of forming one's own personality, but simply of actualizing one's productive capacities, giving aesthetic form to ideas conceived in the mind.

The distinction between the moral and artistic aspects is fundamental, but no less important is the connection between them. Each conditions the other in a profound way. In producing a work, artists express themselves to the point where their work becomes a unique disclosure of their own being, of what they are and of how they are what they are. And there are endless examples of this in human history. In shaping a masterpiece, the artist not only summons his work into being, but also in some way reveals his own personality by means of it. For him art offers both a new dimension and an exceptional mode of expression for his spiritual growth. Through his works, the artist speaks to others and communicates with them. The history of art, therefore, is not only a story of works produced but also a story of men and women. Works of art speak of their authors; they enable us to know their inner life, and they reveal the original contribution which artists offer to the history of culture.
 

BreadOfLife

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According to me, I said no such thing.

Gaslighter.
Ahhhh - there it is again.
EVERY time you get schooled by a Catholic, you cry our, "
Gaslighter!", instead of giving an educated response.
 
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BreadOfLife

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If I dig some non-catholic tunnels in my backyard, that should help others understand that one cannot get to Heaven by being a catholic
And I suspect that if YOU were living in 2md century Rome, you would have pledged eternal allegiance to Caesar to save your hide rather that profess Christ as courageously as those early Catholics, who had to hide in the catacombs to worship and deliver the Christian faith to later generations. Many of them were butchered for their faith.

You have no concept of that kind of faith . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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And then the catholics popes claim theyu speak FOR God to mankind and what THEY say is more truth than scripture.... which is laughable! View attachment 38025
And unless you can prove that false teaching from the Catechism of the Catholic Church - you're just another pathetic liar.
Do you know what the Bible says about liars?


Rev. 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and ALL LIARS—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Ummmm, you might wanna wear something
light . . .
 
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Illuminator

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And then the catholics popes claim theyu speak FOR God to mankind and what THEY say is more truth than scripture.... which is laughable! View attachment 38025
Of course it's laughable, because it isn't true. It's another slogan invented by "Bible Christians" who are so prejudiced they can't think straight.
 

Big Boy Johnson

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Of course it's laughable, because it isn't true. It's another slogan invented by "Bible Christians" who are so prejudiced they can't think straight.

Wow! So, on one hand you agree that it's not true that the catholic church claims what their popes say is more true than God's Word.

And then you post a link so to some friar dude guy who in his article claims the popes word actually IS more true than God's Word. Not sure which McDonald's this guy is a friar at, but his fries contains lies!

Like maybe the Lord calls the catholic pope to see what truth is!
laughing2.gif

And when do the catholic peoples admit they were wrong to go around murdering people for not agreeing with their doctrine??? clueless-scratching.gif

When do you think the jesuits are going to start up the killing up since they are sword to world domination of the catholic church?
 

Illuminator

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Wow! So, on one hand you agree that it's not true that the catholic church claims what their popes say is more true than God's Word.
Let me try to explain:
7. In His gracious goodness, God has seen to it that what He had revealed for the salvation of all nations would abide perpetually in its full integrity and be handed on to all generations. Therefore Christ the Lord in whom the full revelation of the supreme God is brought to completion (see 2 Cor. 1:20; 3:13; 4:6), commissioned the Apostles to preach to all men that Gospel which is the source of all saving truth and moral teaching, (1) and to impart to them heavenly gifts. This Gospel had been promised in former times through the prophets, and Christ Himself had fulfilled it and promulgated it with His lips. This commission was faithfully fulfilled by the Apostles who, by their oral preaching, by example, and by observances handed on what they had received from the lips of Christ, from living with Him, and from what He did, or what they had learned through the prompting of the Holy Spirit. The commission was fulfilled, too, by those Apostles and apostolic men who under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit committed the message of salvation to writing. (2)

But in order to keep the Gospel forever whole and alive within the Church, the Apostles left bishops as their successors, "handing over" to them "the authority to teach in their own place."(3) This sacred tradition, therefore, and Sacred Scripture of both the Old and New Testaments are like a mirror in which the pilgrim Church on earth looks at God, from whom she has received everything, until she is brought finally to see Him as He is, face to face (see 1 John 3:2).

8. And so the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved by an unending succession of preachers until the end of time. Therefore the Apostles, handing on what they themselves had received, warn the faithful to hold fast to the traditions which they have learned either by word of mouth or by letter (see 2 Thess. 2:15), and to fight in defense of the faith handed on once and for all (see Jude 1:3) (4) Now what was handed on by the Apostles includes everything which contributes toward the holiness of life and increase in faith of the peoples of God; and so the Church, in her teaching, life and worship, perpetuates and hands on to all generations all that she herself is, all that she believes.

This tradition which comes from the Apostles develop in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. (5) For there is a growth in the understanding of the realities and the words which have been handed down. This happens through the contemplation and study made by believers, who treasure these things in their hearts (see Luke, 2:19, 51) through a penetrating understanding of the spiritual realities which they experience, and through the preaching of those who have received through Episcopal succession the sure gift of truth. For as the centuries succeed one another, the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine truth until the words of God reach their complete fulfillment in her.
And then you post a link so to some friar dude guy who in his article claims the popes word actually IS more true than God's Word.
You don't quote from the link, you make stuff up out of anger.
Not sure which McDonald's this guy is a friar at, but his fries contains lies!

Like maybe the Lord calls the catholic pope to see what truth is!
View attachment 38036

And when do the catholic peoples admit they were wrong to go around murdering people for not agreeing with their doctrine??? View attachment 38037

When do you think the jesuits are going to start up the killing up since they are sword to world domination of the catholic church?
One reason there is so much anti-Catholicism on the internet is there is money in it and main stream media knows it.
Please, tell your doctor about "sword to world domination of the catholic church". He has medications that can help you.

Bearing False Witness: Debunking Centuries of Anti-Catholic History

As we all know, and as many of our well-established textbooks have argued for decades, the Inquisition was one of the most frightening and bloody chapters in Western history, Pope Pius XII was anti-Semitic and rightfully called "Hitler's Pope", the Dark Ages were a stunting of the progress of knowledge to be redeemed only by the secular spirit of the Enlightenment, and the religious Crusades were an early example of the rapacious Western thirst for riches and power. But what if these long-held beliefs were all wrong?

In this stunning, powerful, and ultimately persuasive book, Rodney Stark, one of the most highly regarded sociologists of religion and the best-selling author of The Rise of Christianity, (is NOT a Catholic) argues that some of our most firmly held ideas about history, ideas that paint the Catholic Church in the least positive light, are in fact fiction. Why have we held these wrongheaded ideas so strongly and for so long? And if our beliefs are wrong, what is the truth? In each chapter Stark takes on a well-established anti-Catholic myth, gives a fascinating history of how it became the conventional wisdom, and presents a startling picture of the real truth.

1699936594031.png
 
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BreadOfLife

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Wow! So, on one hand you agree that it's not true that the catholic church claims what their popes say is more true than God's Word.

And then you post a link so to some friar dude guy who in his article claims the popes word actually IS more true than God's Word. Not sure which McDonald's this guy is a friar at, but his fries contains lies!

Like maybe the Lord calls the catholic pope to see what truth is!
View attachment 38036

And when do the catholic peoples admit they were wrong to go around murdering people for not agreeing with their doctrine??? View attachment 38037

When do you think the jesuits are going to start up the killing up since they are sword to world domination of the catholic church?
YOU might want to get fitted for an asbestos suit . . .

Rev. 21:8

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and ALL LIARS—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
 
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Big Boy Johnson

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You don't quote from the link, you make stuff up out of anger.

I'm just amazed that anyone would take catholicism seriously since it's teachings are extra biblical and are not of the Lord which is obvious since many practices of the catholic church are not even in scripture much taught by the Lord or thru His teaching ministry thru His Apostles He used to write the New Testament.

Not angry at all...... I'd say I was as happy as a pig in the sunshine... but that ain't kosher!

Pic1__JPEG.jpg
One reason there is so much anti-Catholicism on the internet is there is money in it and main stream media knows it.

Actually the reason is... it's false doctrine! agree.gif

and presents a startling picture of the real truth.

No, he's not presenting the truth if he claims catholicism is true.

Sorry pal.
 

Illuminator

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I'm just amazed that anyone would take catholicism seriously since it's teachings are extra biblical and are not of the Lord which is obvious since many practices of the catholic church are not even in scripture much taught by the Lord or thru His teaching ministry thru His Apostles He used to write the New Testament.
Many authentic practices were well in place before the Bible came into being. Not all of it made it into Scripture, as the Bible states. "Every single authentic practice must be explicit in Scripture" is a man made tradition. The Bible doesn't say that anywhere.
Not angry at all...... I'd say I was as happy as a pig in the sunshine... but that ain't kosher!

View attachment 38055


Actually the reason is... it's false doctrine! View attachment 38057



No, he's not presenting the truth if he claims catholicism is true.

Sorry pal.
You said:
Wow! So, on one hand you agree that it's not true that the catholic church claims what their popes say is more true than God's Word.
How is this a reply to post #630? To clarify, no pope ever said their words are more true than God's word. The notion is absurd. You assert "false doctrine" without proof. All Catholic doctrine is derived directly or indirectly from Scripture. I don't think you understand what "doctrine" means.

It is important to share the fullness of Christian truth (as we Catholics believe it to be), so that all others may also share in its blessings. The motive is love, not a sort of “we know everything and you are stupid” mentality. Catholics believe that Protestants are brothers in Christ, part of the Body of Christ, and in possession of much Christian truth indeed.

Individual Protestants often put Catholics to shame in many respects. I love and greatly respect Protestants. I used to be in their number (an evangelical) and I know what was in my own heart, and the high spiritual quality of serious Protestants.

Should we not go and spread the gospel to those who do not know Christ’s love?

Both are important. I do both, as an apologist and evangelist. I don’t see why we have to pit them against each other.

How sad is the Father that his children fight over semantics?

It’s not just semantics. It’s about one of the central rites of the Christian faith (i.e., baptism), which in the Bible is directly connected to regeneration and salvation itself. Paul in the Bible assumes that all of the faith is very important.

Why is there not room to agree to disagree?

We can disagree charitably. But what no one can do is rejoice that there is contradiction among Christians, because that means that there is necessarily falsehood somewhere, and we all agree that that is not a good thing. Atheists (with whom I have had scores of dialogues) bring this problem and difficulty up all the time, believe me. Paul speaks of “one Lord, one faith, one baptism.” Our task is to discover what that one faith is, in all its particulars, rather than be complacent about massive contradictions among competing Christian groups.

All Christians have beliefs. If we truly believe what we do, we will want to share it with others, and we are commanded to do so. The problem today is that folks too often believe there is no one truth, or that truth is relative; thus, one belief is as good as another, and if we dare to say someone is wrong, we are supposedly automatically “intolerant.”

That’s not the biblical view; nor the historic Christian view (Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox).
source
 

Big Boy Johnson

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Many authentic practices were well in place before the Bible came into being. Not all of it made it into Scripture, as the Bible states. "Every single authentic practice must be explicit in Scripture" is a man made tradition. The Bible doesn't say that anywhere.

That's a trick of the devil to bring in pagan rituals that opens the doors of people's lives to demonic oppression leading to demonic possession.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

1 Corinthians 4:6
Now I have applied these things, brothers, to myself and Apollos, on account of you, so that in us you may learn, "not beyond what has been written,"



no pope ever said their words are more true than God's word.

The catholic "church" claims when their pope speaks... he speaks ex cathedra
Papal infallibility

Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church which states that, in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope when he speaks ex cathedra is preserved from the possibility of error on doctrine "initially given to the apostolic Church and handed down in Scripture and tradition"

This of course is all false doctrine and not biblical.


All Christians have beliefs.

And some "christians" have beliefs that did not come from the Lord and are not acceptable to the Lord