I gave your words back to you to eat…
You thought your own words meaningless, ha, so did I, and why I gave them back to you.
A heretical teaching dismantled with the help of Paul the Evangelist.
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I gave your words back to you to eat…
You thought your own words meaningless, ha, so did I, and why I gave them back to you.
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
I have already explained in detail why you are bearing false witness.
But you preach his false ideas, and not even aware of it.
“One of the most glaring problems with Illuminator is on the authority of the Bible: how do we know which Books are sacred Scripture? How can a Christian possibly know which Books belong in the Christian Holy Book without learning this from the Christian Church? It's your problem, not mine. We know for certain it was the historic CHURCH that determined what books belong in the Bible, the CHURCH you despise. Your anti-church mentality is self defeating.
Notice how Taken avoids the original question and tries to turn the tables. He has no answer to the original question: One of the most glaring problems with Taken is on the authority of the Bible: how do we know which Books are sacred Scripture? How can a Christian possibly know which Books belong in the Christian Holy Book without learning this from the Christian Church? To run and deflect, he must repeat the same false insulting accusation of statue worship. What a liar.
Do Catholics Worship Statues?
Do Catholics violate God's prohibition of idolatry by worshiping statues? We put this bogus claim to rest once and for all.
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That's how the devil rolls... deceived people into accepting deception, and they don't even know it!
It's too bad so many put more trust in ther books men write... rather than THE Book Jesus wrote!
BreadOfLife
Well-Known Member
- Jan 2, 2017
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An other than the few times in the Gospel that Jesus interpres a few lines of Scripture - show me where the BIBLE teaches the nonsense you just spouted.
Show me where it teaches that Jesys is our "interpreter" of Scripture - and WHY so many different interpretations and man-made doctrines have jave come to be, given YOUR explanation.
According to YOUR fallacy - onlu YOU and a dew other "Lone Ranger" believers will be saved.
Scripture CONDEMNS this brand of "Christianity" (Luke 10:16, Heb. 10:25). . .
I have already explained in detail why you are bearing false witness.
But you preach his false ideas, and not even aware of it.
“One of the most glaring problems with Illuminator is on the authority of the Bible: how do we know which Books are sacred Scripture? How can a Christian possibly know which Books belong in the Christian Holy Book without learning this from the Christian Church? It's your problem, not mine. We know for certain it was the historic CHURCH that determined what books belong in the Bible, the CHURCH you despise. Your anti-church mentality is self defeating.
Notice how Taken avoids the original question and tries to turn the tables. He has no answer to the original question: One of the most glaring problems with Taken is on the authority of the Bible: how do we know which Books are sacred Scripture? How can a Christian possibly know which Books belong in the Christian Holy Book without learning this from the Christian Church? To run and deflect, he must repeat the same false insulting accusation of statue worship. What a liar.
Something is wrong with this forum when they make proven liars into staff members.Do Catholics Worship Statues?
Do Catholics violate God's prohibition of idolatry by worshiping statues? We put this bogus claim to rest once and for all.www.catholic.com
LOL…you calling someone a liar doesn’t prove them a liar.
LOL…you being ignored does not make someone a liar.
Something is WRONG when grown men act like little bratty children because an other does not agree with them. It is comical once or twice…but come on, man up….
Scripture says do not bow down before statues….I could care less if you are or are not worshiping….(as you repeatedly attempt to defend)….Don’t care. You bow down before statues. Your silly attempts to deflect with silly questions…irrelevant and my prerogative to ignore your elementary nonsense.
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
I haven't done that. I have proven repeatedly that you are a liar You just deny everying I post.
A lie you keep repeating. Whatever rare "bowing" does occur, is not to the statue. You are blind to the evidence provided and keep repeating the same lie over and over again.
Catholics do not pray to or worship statues. Catholics are Christians and, as such, do not worship anything or anyone but God. Praying to statues would constitute idolatry, something that every Catholic authority condemns. Catholics do venerate images and statues, just as Orthodox Christians venerate icons. Veneration, however, is a way of respecting the truth that lies behind the image. Taken still doesn't get it, but keeps on lying.
To venerate a statue of Mary is to respect and honor her. The Catholic Catechism teaches that “The honor paid to sacred images is a ‘respectful veneration,’ not the adoration due to God alone.” Taken flatly denies this.
Catholics commonly have statues in their churches and chapels as a way of reminding members of the congregation of the person depicted by the statue. This has been compared by many Catholics to looking at a picture of a beloved family member, like a mother, in order to remember her. No one believes that the mother is actually sitting in a tiny frame on a desk. Looking at the picture of the mother, however, serves as a reminder to call her or evokes happy times together. Catholic statues are used in much the same way. No Catholic believes that a stone statue depicting Jesus carrying the cross is Christ himself standing on a small ledge in a chapel. Instead, the statue serves as a reminder of what he did for his people.
In addition to helping Catholics remember and think about various biblical characters and events, statues and paintings serve as teaching tools in the Catholic Church. Stained glass windows, statues, carvings, and paintings in Catholic churches almost always depict some important event from the Bible or from one of the saints. A statue of Mary holding the infant Jesus, for example, might be a way of showing Jesus’s birth. Similarly, a stained-glass window might show Jesus ascending into heaven after his resurrection, and a series of carvings might depict Christ’s long walk through Jerusalem on the way to his crucifixion. Such artwork is meant to help those who are unfamiliar with the Bible or unable to read visualize the story of Christ. Protestants and other denominations do this with pictures and children’s books during Sunday school and at home. These things are not idols; they are teaching tools. For most of history, the average person could neither read nor write, and copies of the Bible were rare. They could, however, look at a series of stained-glass windows and “read” the story there.
Taken arrogantly claims that Catholics worship statues by pointing to examples of Catholics kneeling before statues, lighting candles in front of them, or decorating the statues with flowers. These are simply devotional practices that help the faithful express their devotion. It is not unlike the common practice of lighting candles or laying flowers in front of pictures of famous people who have died tragically. Many Catholics will kneel and pray in front of a statue, but they are not praying to the statue. The statue is simply affording them a visual reminder of unseen realities.
Why Do Catholics Pray To Statues?
Catholics do not pray to statues. Catholics are Christians and, as such, do not worship anything or anyone but God.
www.patheos.com
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Illuminator
Well-Known Member
People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: “And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be” (Ex. 25:18–20).
David gave Solomon the plan “for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all” (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple included statues of angels.
Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, “On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim.”
David gave Solomon the plan “for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all” (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple included statues of angels.
Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, “On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim.”
So?
I said Catholics bow down before statues.
You keep blathering on and on and on and on
About prayer and worship….
Why keep commenting with your snarky remarks to me, regarding what you repeatedly say?
Sorry to hear your inference that Catholics have memory problems without a visual reminder.
Perhaps that is your problem in understanding what a person does and does not say on this forum without having art work to remind you.
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
According to you, Moses has memory problems.Sorry to hear your inference that Catholics have memory problems without a visual reminder.
Perhaps that is your problem in understanding what a person does and does not say on this forum without having art work to remind you.
Deut. 4:15 – from this verse, Protestants say that since we saw “no form” of the Lord, we should not make graven images of Him.
Deut. 4:16 – of course, in early history Israel was forbidden to make images of God because God didn’t yet reveal himself visibly “in the form of any figure.”
Deut. 4:17-19 – hence, had the Israelites depicted God not yet revealed, they might be tempted to worship Him in the form of a beast, bird, reptile or fish, which was a common error of the times.
Exodus 3:2-3; Dan 7:9; Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32; Acts 2:3- later on, however, we see that God did reveal himself in visible form (as a dove, fire, etc).
Deut. 5:8 – God’s commandment “thou shall not make a graven image” is entirely connected to the worship of false gods. God does not prohibit images to be used in worship, but He prohibits the images themselves to be worshiped.
Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31 – for example, God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim. This heavenly image, of course, is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God.
Num. 21:8-9 – God also commands the making of the bronze serpent. The image of the bronze serpent is not an idol to be worshiped, but an article that lifts the mind to the supernatural.
I Kings 6:23-36; 7:27-39; 8:6-67 – Solomon’s temple contains statues of cherubim and images of cherubim, oxen and lions. God did not condemn these images that were used in worship.
2 Kings 18:4 – it was only when the people began to worship the statue did they incur God’s wrath, and the king destroyed it. The command prohibiting the use of graven images deals exclusively with the false worship of those images.
1 Chron. 28:18-19 – David gives Solomon the plan for the altar made of refined gold with a golden cherubim images. These images were used in the Jews’ most solemn place of worship.
2 Chron. 3:7-14 – the house was lined with gold with elaborate cherubim carved in wood and overlaid with gold.
Ezek. 41:15 – Ezekiel describes graven images in the temple consisting of carved likenesses of cherubim. These are similar to the images of the angels and saints in many Catholic churches.
Col. 1:15 – the only image of God that Catholics worship is Jesus Christ, who is the “image” (Greek “eikon”) of the invisible God.
source
I apologize for proving you to be a liar. But you are an extreme literalist, taking one verse out of context, robbing scripture of it's meaning. Catholics have been using visual aids since the 2nd century, as proven by the Paleo-Christian art in the Roman Catacombs. Sadly, you have nothing to do with that Church. Actually, we don't even need them. There are no statues on the battlefield or in bomb shelters.
Bringing the Blessed Sacrament to the Battlefield
To combat the growing darkness of the world, we need to bring the Blessed Sacrament into it. Click here to read about how we can do that.
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Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Rome’s Catacombs art was created to encourage fellow Christians
Rome’s Catacombs art was created to encourage fellow Christians
Imagine a vast, underground series of zigzagging passageways covering an area several miles in length, 590 acres in size. Ponder the amount of work that was required to dig down between 2 and 60 feet deep into volcanic tuff rock in order to create these passageways and the loculi (burial niches)...
reformedperspective.ca
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
that's your response to 15+ verses? Could you run any faster? Your excessive literalism and radical iconoclasm is not biblical nor historical.
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Eyesight problem?
I responded to your false accusation.
Your gaslighting is old and boring.
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
I made no false accusation with 15+ verses in post #651 that you failed to respond to. For example, I Kings 6:23-36; 7:27-39; 8:6-67 – Solomon’s temple contains statues of cherubim and images of cherubim, oxen and lions. God did not condemn these images that were used in worship, but you do.
Then stop running from the scriptural evidence I present with evasions and denials. You say you responded to post #651, and no one can see where. This is one reason why discussion with you is impossible. You are giving "staff member" a bad reputation.
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Illuminator
Well-Known Member
WHAT ARE THE ROMAN CATACOMBS?
The catacombs are underground tunnels that were forged out of soft rock. They are long, marrow winding corridors. The dead were buried in the walls on either side. From time to time, going through these corridors, one comes to a wider space like a room. In these rooms the Christians would gather for the sacrifice of the Mass so as to worship free from the pagans persecutions.
Burial in the catacombs stopped when the barbarians plundered Rome. The popes removed the relics of the saints and martyrs from the catacombs. The catacombs, once abandoned, were gradually forgotten and not discovered again until the end of the sixteenth century. Most famous of the catacombs is that of St. Callistus, where many of the popes were buried after they were martyred for the faith.
HOW THE CATACOMBS BEAR WITNESS TO THE TRUE CATHOLIC FAITH TODAY
An authentic Catholic catechism, containing to true Catholic teachings, could be composed from the pictures and inscriptions on the tombs and walls of ancient catacombs of the first three centuries. Pictures, medals, and inscriptions in the catacombs identify the faith of the early Christians with the Catholic faith.
The catacombs prove that the first Christians believed that Jesus Christ is true God and true Man. They also believed in the Real Presence of Jesus in the holy Eucharist, the divine institution of the papacy, the dignity of the mother of God, the intercession of the saints, purgatory, prayers for the deceased.
The emblem of the fish, ichthys, was frequently used in the catacombs. It is a symbol of the Lord Jesus, for the Greek word ichthys means fish and its letters are the initials for Jesus Christ, Gods Son, Savior. When Christians spoke of receiving the fish, they meant to receive Jesus in Holy communion.
Frequently, pictures of our Savior in the catacombs reveal him as the Good Shepherd., carrying the lost sheep on his shoulders. This is the ancient biblical form which reveals the same message as our modern devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. A number of people are sitting around a table on which is bread and fish.
Death and resurrection were often in the minds of the early Christians, as indicated by the pictures of Noah and the ark, Jonah and the whale, Daniel in the lions den, and the raising of Lazarus. Their faith in resurrection and eternal life gave them courage in facing death under persecution. There is also the famous account of Tarsicius being martyred a he took the holy Eucharist, the bread of life, to Christian prisoners.
The eucharistic sacrifice of the Mass was offered in the catacombs on the altars under which rested the bodies of martyrs. Catholic altars even today have altar stones in which the relics of saints and martyrs were placed by bishops when they consecrated the altar stones.
SOURCE
FURTHER READING: Catacombs of Rome - Wikipedia
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STOP….gaslighting!
I said NOTHING about Moses
PERIOD.
I said NOTHING about a memory problem.
PERIOD.
YOU made a FALSE ACCUSATION…
OWN IT!
I addressed your FALSE ACCUSATION…
READ IT!
I said NOTHING about the Scriptures you POSTED…
I HAVE a BIBLE of Scriptures…
NOT ONCE Does God Revoke His Word…
Your FAILURE to comprehend…
God Himself can INSTRUCT MEN to carve, make, mold PARTICULAR IMAGES…
Men were NOT given Gods AUTHORITY to carve, make, set up, “to” BOW DOWN before such ANY IMAGES.
You (a man From your own IDEAS) want carved, molded IMAGES, of who or whatever……WHO CARES?
Catholics (men from their OWN IDEAS) want carved, molded IMAGES, of angels, men, fake guesswork who what they “think” would represent MARY, call the image MARY, make Umpteen such IMAGES, Line their churches, line their streets, their homes, their whatever…..who cares?
EXCEPT for the FACT, those particular IMAGES ARE EXPRESSLY set up “TO” bow down before THAT “Image”.
Not ONCE did God instruct such an IMAGE to be MADE…(EVER) thus Certainly “Making” of such IMAGES….WERE NOT Traditions God taught to STICK WITH.
Those are Catholic devised Images, those are expressly to bow down before. Those ARE Catholic “Traditions” to be present IN every Catholic Church….and the IMPLIED power and authority the Catholic Church TEACHES is vested IN MARY, prompts Catholics, to put replicas of mini-images in their homes, yards, vehicles, carry beads to Call on Mary’s Name (a dead woman) and make repetitive requests TO HER.
Not ONCE does Scripture teach, nor did the Apostles do…..call on the Name of Dead people to Hear their prayers.
Not only is that CORRUPT teaching, it is CORRUPT doing….and CORRUPT doing IS NOT the WAY of the Lord God.
In no way, shape or form can you JUSTIFY According to scripture, that which you support and do AS BEING Gods WAY.
Gods WAY is NOT your way.
Gods wants images of cherubs covering the ARK that holds HIS WORD……Gods Authority to instruct men according to HIS WORD.
Catholic men want images of Mary…SO?
Not Gods instruction.
Catholic men want to bow before those images? So? Definitely NOT Gods instruction.
Not taught of God, not blessed by God, fruitless works, that shall be burned.
And you trying to defend your chosen behavior AS God Sanctioned, is ridiculous on its face…You can copy and paste the entire Bible and NOT ONCE will there be a single scripture of the Lord God instructing men to build images of Mary to bow down before.
Catholics DO….I have said so….it is not a lie as you falsely accuse.
You choose to DO fruitless works, and falsely accuse other people who NOTICE and call out your fruitless works.
Men have FREEWILL…you choose to do Fruitless works FOR EONS…who cares?
That only effects YOU.
You teaching, peaching to encourage OTHERS to join up in YOUR organization, and DO WHAT YOU DO….OR….
ME “not” participating IN WHAT YOU DO……but SUPPORTING, and jumping on board, in AGREEING what YOU DO, is NOW you entering into an advanced realm of encouraging other to DO Fruitless works….OR support fruitless works….which garners that individual stiffer Consequences….
BECAUSE if a man busy’s himself doing Fruitless works….that man is thus NOT DOING Gods Fruitful works…
Its the same concept of “non-homosexuals”, supporting “homosexual” behavior.
Rom 1:
[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
No I do not agree, NOR support, erecting a mans IDEA of an image and bowing down before that image.
Doesn’t matter IF you agree with me or like it or not.
If I dig some non-catholic tunnels in my backyard, that should help others understand that one cannot get to Heaven by being a catholic
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Of course you said nothing about the Scriptures I posted. You just rant and think it's a repy.
Agreed. Catholics don't make that claim.
