A little Research on creation

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The Learner

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CREATION EX NIHILO, PHILOSOPHY
TIME, THE SUCCESSION OF MOMENTS, AND AN ACTUAL INFINITE
MARCH 26, 2010 DARRELL 0 COMMENTS
Post Author: Darrell

I recently did a couple of posts regarding the incoherence of an actual infinite and how, as a result, the eternality of matter as taught in Mormonism is impossible. These posts can be found here and here.

I want to address another way of analyzing the concept of “eternal matter” as taught in the Mormon Church. Let’s assume for a moment that an actual infinite is possible; could matter have always existed, i.e., could it be eternal? Unfortunately for Mormons who hold to creation ex materia, the answer is a resounding “no.”

According to Einstein’s Theory of Relativity if matter has always existed, time has always existed, for time and matter are relative, i.e., you can’t have one without the other. In addition, if time has always existed, the past is actually infinite. In otherwords, prior to today there have existed an actually infinite number of moments (see the above referenced posts which discussed this fact). However, time is a series of events or moments formed by successive addition, and it is impossible to form an actual infinite through successive addition.

In successive addition, the collection is instantiated sequentially. For example, if I am given one M&M at a time, no matter how many M&M’s I receive it is always possible for me to be given “one more.” Thus, one could never say that I have an actually infinite number of M&M’s.

In the same sense, since time is formed through successive addition, i.e., one moment followed by another, no matter how much time has passed, more time is always possible. You can always have “one more moment.” As a result, it is never possible to say that prior to today there has been an actually infinite amount of time.

There are additional philosophical issues with eternal matter and the succession of moments in a beginningless/eternal universe. Paul Copan and William Lane Craig share some of their thoughts in The New Mormon Challenge.

In order for us to have “arrived” at today, existence has, so to speak, traversed an infinite number of prior events. But before the present event could arrive, the event immediately prior to it would have to arrive; and before that event could arrive, the event immediately prior to it would have to arrive; and so on ad infinitum. No event could ever arrive, since before it could elapse there would always be one more event that had to have happened first. Thus, if the series of past event were beginningless, the present event could not have arrived, which is absurd! (Copan and Craig, The New Mormon Challenge, Zondervan, 2002, 135)

The temporal series of events we call time cannot be actually infinite, and as a result, the universe, time, and matter all had to have a beginning. The universe could not have been created ex materia, for eternal matter is impossible. In addition to the the philosophical arguments, there is a wealth of scientific data to support the finite nature of matter, time, and the universe. It can easily be said that nearly all signs point towards creation ex nihilo just as traditional Christianity has been declaring for nearly 2000 years.

God Bless!

Darrell
 

The Learner

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In Norse mythology, Odin and his brothers Vili and Vé used the corpse of the giant Ymir to create Midgard, the realm of humans, and the rest of the world:
Earth: From Ymir's flesh
Oceans and seas: From Ymir's blood
Mountains: From Ymir's bones
Rocks: From Ymir's teeth
Trees and vegetation: From Ymir's hair
Sky: From Ymir's skull
Clouds: From Ymir's brain
Midgard's wall: From Ymir's eyebrows

 

The Learner

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Holy Scripture utterly and unequivocally condemns Mormon teaching about their "Father God" and how he begot their "Jesus Christ." It is yet another teaching from ancient paganism - the idea of male gods having intercourse with human women, which in Mormon teaching is possible because all gods were once mortal humans.

When we consider the Mormon view of God and the traditional Christian view of God, Mormonism seems a bit more like Hinduism, or maybe even Greco-Roman paganism. They have more gods than we would even count in Hinduism, with an infinite array of gods going back eternally and, presumably, forward eternally as well. Additionally, their understanding of these gods is not unlike the anthropomorphic deities—with hands and fingernails and toes and eyeballs—of the Romans and the Greeks. Both these ideas are incompatible with the God of the Bible.
 

The Learner

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This refers to centuries after the time of Jesus:
It is essential to note that the “philosopher” insists that God, though a great craftsman, was “assisted” by five materials, all of which had a cosmogonic function in pagan mythology.

Now that we got that out of the way here are 4 fundamental differences between Paganism and Christianity:

ONE GOD VS. MANY GODS
In Christianity there is belief in one true god. Those that believe in this God will ascend to heaven and those that believe in either multiple deities or a different singular God are incorrect and they must be “saved” or else they will not ascend to heaven. In Paganism we believe in multiple Gods.

Creatio ex materia is the idea that the universe was created from pre-existing, eternal matter. This is in contrast to creatio ex nihilo, which is the idea that the universe was created from nothing


Greek philosopher Plato believed that objects come into existence when form is introduced to prime matter. He believed in a world of forms that existed independently of matter, and that real knowledge came from knowing these forms. Plato believed that our souls existed in heaven before our bodies, and that we became acquainted with the forms there. He believed that what we seem to learn is actually just remembering our initial experience with these forms
google plato
 

The Learner

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A source of LDS creation nonsense:

TIMAEUS: Why did the Creator make the world?...He was good, and therefore not jealous, and being free from jealousy he desired that all things should be like himself. Wherefore he set in order the visible world, which he found in disorder. Now he who is the best could only create the fairest; and reflecting that of visible things the intelligent is superior to the unintelligent, he put intelligence in soul and soul in body, and framed the universe to be the best and fairest work in the order of nature, and the world became a living soul through the providence of God.
...
When the Father who begat the world saw the image which he had made of the Eternal Gods moving and living, he rejoiced; and in his joy resolved, since the archetype was eternal, to make the creature eternal as far as this was possible.

Plato lacks the knowledge of Genesis 1:1 Beka
Timaeus and Genesis in Counterpoint is a 1997 book by Jaroslav Pelikan

Plato’s Cosmology: The Timaeus
The Forms vs. the Cosmos
The world of Forms
The world of being; everything in this world “always is,” “has no becoming,” and “does not change”(28a).
It is apprehended by the understanding, not by the senses.
The physical world (= the Cosmos)
The world of becoming; everything in this world “comes to be and passes away, but never really is” (28a).
It is grasped by opinion and sense-perception.
The cosmos itself came into being, created using as its model the world of Forms.
The Demiurge (Creator)
Literally, “craftsman.” The creator of Plato’s physical world is not a divine intelligence or a personal ruler, but (as it were) a manual laborer. Cf. Vlastos, Plato’s Universe (pp. 26-27):
 

The Learner

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That the supreme god of Plato’s cosmos should wear the mask of a manual worker is a triumph of the philosophical imagination over ingrained social prejudice. ... But this divine mechanic is not a drudge. He is an artist or, more precisely, what an artist would have to be in Plato’s conception of art: not the inventor of new form, but the imposer of pre-existing form on as yet formless material.
The Elements
The physical world must have bodily form; it must be visible and tangible (31b).
Hence, its ingredients must include fire and earth.
Since fire and earth will have to be combined, there must be at least one other ingredient that serves to combine them.
But since fire and earth are solids, we require two intermediates to combine them.
Hence, the demiurge created air and water, and arranged all four elements proportionally: as fire is to air, air is to water; as air is to water, water is to earth.
As we will see below, we have not reached the bottom with these four elements: there are (geometrical) atoms of which these elements are composed.

Some Muslim scholars have different views on creation out of matter:
Emanation
Scholars like Al-Farabi and Ibn Sina believe that the world was created from God and has an eternal essence.
Creation out of primordial matter
Scholars like Ibn Taimiyya believe that God created the world from primordial matter, smoke, and waters.
Evolutionary ideas
Some Muslim philosophers, like Ibn Khaldun, have defended evolutionary ideas based on the Great Chain of Being. Khaldun's theory proposed that life originated from minerals, evolved into plants, and then into animals
False Doctrine begats going the wrong place after death.

Aristotle famously contends that every physical object is a compound of matter and form. This doctrine has been dubbed “hylomorphism”, a portmanteau of the Greek words for matter (hulê) and form (eidos or morphê). Highly influential in the development of Medieval philosophy, Aristotle’s hylomorphism has also enjoyed something of a renaissance in contemporary metaphysics.
Reality is created by the mind, we can change our reality by changing our mind.
Plato
Be kind. Every person you meet
is fighting a difficult battle.
Plato


“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” From this and other passages, the Bible tells us that God created all things ex nihilo (out of nothing) and orthodox Christianity has always interpreted these verses this way. In other words, God did not use any pre-existing material, but rather the space/time universe came into being simply by divine fiat.


For Stoic, Platonist, and
Peripatetic alike matter imposed the natural necessity of corruption upon the body
lite reading Theologies of Creation: Creatio Ex Nihilo and Its New Rivals
more Is An Actual Infinite Coherent? Part 1

1)Ex Nihilo - Something from Nothing (time began when something formed out of nothing) Once matter is present time can be recorded. God is both Something and Nothing, since everything formed out of Nothing. This is beyond understanding, because there are no opposites.

If Gerhard May is correct in his presentation and analysis of the historical data, the formulation of the dogma of the creatio ex nihilo required faith’s confrontation with Platonic emanationism, Stoic pantheism, and Gnostic cosmogony; and this confrontation did not occur until the middle of the second century A.D. Even the great Jewish philosopher Philo did not explicitly assert the creatio ex nihilo, though he seems to have come closer than May acknowledges. “[Philo] is not entirely consistent,” writes Janet Martin Soskice, “but the basic tenets of creatio ex nihilo are already present in his writings: God has created the world out of non-being, creating as well as moulding formless matter” (“Creatio ex Nihilo,” in Creation and the God of Abraham, pp. 33-34). Soskice also cites an exchange between a Greek philosopher and Rabbi Gamaliel: “Your God was indeed a great artist,” states the philosopher, “but surely he found good pigments which assist him.” The rabbi replies, “God made the colours, too!” (Genesis Rabah 1:9).
*** Creatio ex nihilo: A Critique of the Mormon Doctrine of Creation | Reasonable Faith

It is associated with early Greek cosmology, such as is in the works of Homer and Hesiod. An alternative to creation ex materia is creation ex deo, meaning creation from a God.
 

Kabone

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Time is a human construct. We created the concept of time to help us explain and predict what happens in the universe. The universe does what the universe does. It cares nothing for time.
Infinity is also a human construct. The infinite sequence of time was first proposed as the infinite sequence of motion. To go from A to B, you first had to get halfway to B. To get halfway, you first had to get halfway to there, and so on. This infinite amount of half distances points to the impossibility of motion, which obviously is not true.
The conservation of matter and energy is a universal law. Einstein may have been the most brilliant mind ever, but that correlation is nonsensical.
 
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Pyreaux

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It kills me to see Christians argue about Mormon belief, when they are defending something Catholics innovated and not a shred of awareness of ancient Jewish belief. The doctrine of Creato Ex Nihilo (Creation from Nothing) hss no ancient context.

This idea was not evident in Early Christian writers before Tatian and Theophilus, and Creato Ex Nihlio derives from Apocryphal texts like the Shepherd of Hermas and 2 Maccabees using the terms to describe creation as the creation of a piece of art, like a painter or potter. But a potter creates things from non-being, not nothing. He uses clay to form a bowl, where a bowl didn’t exist. The art piece didn't exist, but the clay existed, so being "created" like art does not mean to be made from nothing. They ignore that ancient Jews interpreted Genesis as a creation out of water or 'hyle', the primeval element, "formless matter" which God made the heavens and earth (Gen 1:1; Job 37:6; Wisdom of Solomon 11:17; 2 Enoch 28 v2).

There is nothing in the Bible that was created from nothing. Nowhere in the seven-day creation scheme of Genesis 1 does God create; the planet which was “without form (in chaos)", the waters, and the void, the wind, the angels, the throne, the abyss, all preexisting things and uncreated materials in which the uninhabitable world was made habitable.

In other Biblical Creation accounts, on the first day the light was created, not from nothing but was forged out of pre-existent darkness. The psalmist says that God took existing light and stretched it out (Ps 104:2). Isaiah says God “formed [yotzer] light and create [borei] darkness” (Isaiah 45:7). The Hebrew is saying the light was formed out of the darkness. If you form something from something that already exists means that what you created already existed inside of it.

Genesis 1 gives the impression that the earth existed but was covered in water until the third day, when the water was drained to expose dry land. Psalm 104 states the waters already existed when God created his heavenly palace, before God created the heaven and the earth. The doctrine of creation ex nihilo (creation out of nothing) might had some foundation only if one translates its first verse as "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" and understands it to refer to some comprehensive creative act on the first day. Instead, the heavens were created on the second day to restrain the pre-existing waters, and the earth came forth from the waters on the third day, “Let the water below the sky be gathered into one area, that the dry land may appear” (Gen 1:9).

Other Jewish sources say the water itself was the material that the land was made from, that the water solidified to become earth. As the first century Jewish Scholar Philo says the “earth and water being mingled together and kneaded like a mass of dough, into a single element, without shape or distinction of its parts” (Philo, On Creation 38). This seems to be what the Apostle Peter believed, that the waters preexisted the creation and that this preexisting material was utilized to make everything. God created "the heaven and earth" by "forming" them out of the pre-existing matter of "water" (2 Peter 3:5).

My point is that if Jews and Apostles believed God made the earth out of matter, then much later Christians came to believe the earth was made out of nothing, then what Mormonism teaches contradicts only the later doctrine is getting a negative reaction without a coherent reason. Why? Protestants who should not be beholden to any Catholic doctrines and dogma, who on one side claim to reject Catholic traditions they disagree with, then proudly hold tight to other Catholic traditions when confronted by Mormonism's new and ancient Jewish doctrines. Why can't you just shrug it off? I mean, just because Mormonism is right about one thing doesn't mean Joseph was a Prophet. Agreeing with Mormons doesn't make you a Mormon.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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CREATION EX NIHILO, PHILOSOPHY
TIME, THE SUCCESSION OF MOMENTS, AND AN ACTUAL INFINITE
MARCH 26, 2010 DARRELL 0 COMMENTS
Post Author: Darrell

I recently did a couple of posts regarding the incoherence of an actual infinite and how, as a result, the eternality of matter as taught in Mormonism is impossible. These posts can be found here and here.

I want to address another way of analyzing the concept of “eternal matter” as taught in the Mormon Church. Let’s assume for a moment that an actual infinite is possible; could matter have always existed, i.e., could it be eternal? Unfortunately for Mormons who hold to creation ex materia, the answer is a resounding “no.”

According to Einstein’s Theory of Relativity if matter has always existed, time has always existed, for time and matter are relative, i.e., you can’t have one without the other. In addition, if time has always existed, the past is actually infinite. In otherwords, prior to today there have existed an actually infinite number of moments (see the above referenced posts which discussed this fact). However, time is a series of events or moments formed by successive addition, and it is impossible to form an actual infinite through successive addition.

In successive addition, the collection is instantiated sequentially. For example, if I am given one M&M at a time, no matter how many M&M’s I receive it is always possible for me to be given “one more.” Thus, one could never say that I have an actually infinite number of M&M’s.

In the same sense, since time is formed through successive addition, i.e., one moment followed by another, no matter how much time has passed, more time is always possible. You can always have “one more moment.” As a result, it is never possible to say that prior to today there has been an actually infinite amount of time.

There are additional philosophical issues with eternal matter and the succession of moments in a beginningless/eternal universe. Paul Copan and William Lane Craig share some of their thoughts in The New Mormon Challenge.

In order for us to have “arrived” at today, existence has, so to speak, traversed an infinite number of prior events. But before the present event could arrive, the event immediately prior to it would have to arrive; and before that event could arrive, the event immediately prior to it would have to arrive; and so on ad infinitum. No event could ever arrive, since before it could elapse there would always be one more event that had to have happened first. Thus, if the series of past event were beginningless, the present event could not have arrived, which is absurd! (Copan and Craig, The New Mormon Challenge, Zondervan, 2002, 135)

The temporal series of events we call time cannot be actually infinite, and as a result, the universe, time, and matter all had to have a beginning. The universe could not have been created ex materia, for eternal matter is impossible. In addition to the the philosophical arguments, there is a wealth of scientific data to support the finite nature of matter, time, and the universe. It can easily be said that nearly all signs point towards creation ex nihilo just as traditional Christianity has been declaring for nearly 2000 years.

God Bless!

Darrell
The Mormon church is more like a bothersome gnat in regards to the creation argument. It is the secular "sciences" with their false evolution of matter and life that is teh big issue. all modern religious concepts have sprung from this massive lie!