A Popular, Modern View of Righteousness

[haz]

Hi Axehead, seekandfind, Epi and dragonfly,

I might as well address all of you together since your all out to nail me at once :wacko:
Being on the top end of the planet B) put's us in very different time zones. I see a lot of back-slappping and "Amen brother" has been going on between you all whilst I was asleep.

First an apology to Axehead. After re-reading his post it seems that he was not saying the same as Epi, that the 10 commandments must be obeyed perfectly to determine righteousness. As Epi and Axehead have been praising each other so much I assumed Axehead might agree with Epi on his doctrine that unless you are perfectly obeying 10 commandments you are not abiding in Christ.

Below are a couple of quotes from Epi which I think Axehead and seekandfind do not agree with.

"If one is not able to bring EVERY thought to be in Christ then that one is not abiding in Christ yet"
"So then if we are not able to keep the commandments of God perfectly then we either are not walking in grace or indeed have fallen from it. Sin proves that we are not abiding in Christ. The law is simply revealing who we are."

So, from the doctrines I see here amongst you all, it is Epi who is not abiding in Christ. But the other 3 of you are abiding in Christ but at least you're trying to keep the 10 commandments perfectly. Is this correct so far?

I admit I tend to agree with Epi on this. Whilst I disagree with his understanding on scriptures, his reading of them is a more accurate take on scriptures than what Axehead, seekandfind and dragonfly are drawing who all claim that they fail to perfectly keep the 10 commandments yet are still abiding in Christ in spite of this.

Can Axehead, seekandfind and dragonfly explain their position in regards to the following scriptures? I find that Epi seems to be one of the few who are willing to accept these scriptures for exactly what they say.

John 8:34
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin".

1John 3:6
"Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him."

1John 3:8
"[sup] [/sup]He who sins is of the devil"

 

[dragonfly]

Hi haz,

May I remind you again, that it is you who has brought the 10 commandments into a series of discussions. I did not answer your questions to me because I've already stated that the requirements of the New Covenant are higher.

Also, I asked you to share how you understand the New Covenant. Please do so.

But the other 3 of you are abiding in Christ but at least you're trying to keep the 10 commandments perfectly. Is this correct so far?

I'm not 'trying' to keep the 10 commandments, but neither do I 'think' it is okay to sin. I am walking in the Holy Spirit which the Lord gives to those who obey Him. (I may have said this already somewhere.) The Holy Spirit keeps me in fellowship with my Saviour.

 

[Axehead]

Hi haz,

May I remind you again, that it is you who has brought the 10 commandments into a series of discussions. I did not answer your questions to me because I've already stated that the requirements of the New Covenant are higher.

Also, I asked you to share how you understand the New Covenant. Please do so.



I'm not 'trying' to keep the 10 commandments, but neither do I 'think' it is okay to sin. I am walking in the Holy Spirit which the Lord gives to those who obey Him. (I may have said this already somewhere.) The Holy Spirit keeps me in fellowship with my Saviour.

I agree with Dragonfly. My desire is to walk after the Spirit because much of the Shepherd's leading and instructions are not written down. To be sure, what He tells me does not contradict Scripture (He does not lead me into sin). For instance, if I am at an intersection in life and have 2 choices before me, none of which are sinful on the surface (for instance 2 job offers) and I pray through and seek the Lord regarding which one to take and then follow His leading, that particular guidance/commandment from Him is not found in a written letter. If I don't follow His instruction to me and I know it clearly, then I am walking in the flesh.

Walking in the Spirit is a much higher law (The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus - Romans 8) than the letter of the Law and while the Holy Spirit leads me to put to death "the deeds of the flesh", He has also circumcised my heart and taken out the stony heart which was legalistic and satisfied with only following stony tablets (just enough to get by) and rationalizing that I was really following them (which I never could).

The Holy Spirit goes much deeper into an individual's life than just requiring obedience to stony tablets.

Jesus did say, "Ye have heard that it was said .... but I say unto you".

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

This is not just the written Word of God to me, but the Living Word of God (Jesus Christ). I don't worship the Bible and I don't practice Bibliolatry

If I walk after the Spirit, I don't concern myself with the 10 commandments, because my heart's orientation is not toward a list of regulations but rather towards a PERSON. Jesus Christ.

Just like my marriage to my wife. I don't consult the 10 rules for a successful marriage. It is a relationship and as such, it is best maintained if all my motives and actions and thoughts toward her are based on loving her as Christ loves me. He is not only my example how to love my wife and others but He is my example on how to love the Father.

After I became a Christian and received the Holy Spirit, as the days went by and I was reading God's Word, I remember finding out that I was already doing some of the things (attitudes of my heart) that I was reading. He really does give us a new heart with His laws (His ways) on them.

Now, I am a son and as such life has become for me the "school of the Spirit" and God is at work maturing me and conforming me to the image of Christ. It is not without chastisement and correction (Heb 12), to bring me to maturity and perfect me in love, but it is also full of rest (from my own works of righteousness) and peace (with God and man).

Axehead

 

[haz]

Hi Axehead and dragonfly,

Getting one's message across clearly on forums is not easy. Maybe we are sharing a similar understanding but the wording we each use and pre-conceptions etc causes misunderstandings

It seems, like I asked you previously, that you 2 do not agree with Epi that perfect obedience to the 10 commandments determines righteousness and whether you even abide in Christ. Below are a couple of quotes from Epi just to clarify what he believes.

""If one is not able to bring EVERY thought to be in Christ then that one is not abiding in Christ yet"
"So then if we are not able to keep the commandments of God perfectly then we either are not walking in grace or indeed have fallen from it. Sin proves that we are not abiding in Christ. The law is simply revealing who we are."

The agreement you all were showing with Epi originally had me thinking you might follow his doctrine that one must keep the 10 commandments perfectly to be righteous/abiding in Christ.

Regarding the NT Phil 3 compares the old covenat with the new as described by Paul. This is how I see it.

"concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
[sup] [/sup]But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. [sup] [/sup]Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ [sup] [/sup]and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; [sup] [/sup]that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, [sup] [/sup]if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead"

 

[seekandfind]

Walking in the Spirit is a much higher law (The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus - Romans 8) than the letter of the Law and while the Holy Spirit leads me to put to death "the deeds of the flesh", He has also circumcised my heart and taken out the stony heart which was legalistic and satisfied with only following stony tablets (just enough to get by) and rationalizing that I was really following them (which I never could).

The Holy Spirit goes much deeper into an individual's life than just requiring obedience to stony tablets.

Jesus did say, "Ye have heard that it was said .... but I say unto you".

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

This is not just the written Word of God to me, but the Living Word of God (Jesus Christ). I don't worship the Bible and I don't practice Bibliolatry

If I walk after the Spirit, I don't concern myself with the 10 commandments, because my heart's orientation is not toward a list of regulations but rather towards a PERSON. Jesus Christ.


Axehead

Hi Axehead,

You stated that what HE tells you does not contradict scriptures. Without the scriptures how would one know this?

Jesus said that His sheep hear His voice and they will not follow another. I've learned that when I'm talking with another believer whether they use scripture or not, we can hear His voice in what they say and it does line up with scriptures. God would never go against what is written. Just like in your original message here, I could see the scriptural references that you used, but the Lord brought other scriptures to mind that confirm those things as well. I agree with dragonfly in that I use scriptures when I share because the scriptures say it all much better than I do.

If we study the word without Him, and without the right heart then we won't get much out of them.

That is contained in the verse that you posted:

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Even when we study the scriptures our thoughts and our hearts are discerned by the spirit.

I do not agree with the term, “ Bibliolatry.” This is a man-made term. There simply isn't one example of anyone in the bible who was called an idolater because they studied too much. Throughout the bible when the scriptures were neglected or rejected, that is when different people went into idolatry.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi haz,

I am 99.9% sure that if Episkopos mentioned the 10 commandments, it was because you had put them in a question. You quoted him:

"If one is not able to bring EVERY thought to be in Christ then that one is not abiding in Christ yet"
"So then if we are not able to keep the commandments of God perfectly then we either are not walking in grace or indeed have fallen from it. Sin proves that we are not abiding in Christ. The law is simply revealing who we are."

Do you understand that Jesus gave commandments which are not in the Mosaic law? Obeying Him is a separate challenge.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

 

[Axehead]

Hi Axehead,

You stated that what HE tells you does not contradict scriptures. Without the scriptures how would one know this?

Jesus said that His sheep hear His voice and they will not follow another. I've learned that when I'm talking with another believer whether they use scripture or not, we can hear His voice in what they say and it does line up with scriptures. God would never go against what is written. Just like in your original message here, I could see the scriptural references that you used, but the Lord brought other scriptures to mind that confirm those things as well. I agree with dragonfly in that I use scriptures when I share because the scriptures say it all much better than I do.

If we study the word without Him, and without the right heart then we won't get much out of them.

That is contained in the verse that you posted:

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Even when we study the scriptures our thoughts and our hearts are discerned by the spirit.

I do not agree with the term, “ Bibliolatry.” This is a man-made term. There simply isn't one example of anyone in the bible who was called an idolater because they studied too much. Throughout the bible when the scriptures were neglected or rejected, that is when different people went into idolatry.

Hi seekandfind,

To be clear. I do love the Scriptures. But Christianity is not a book religion as many have made it (such as Islam and their Koran). We serve a living, dynamic God who wants to lead us daily by His Word and His Spirit. The Spirit gives the Scriptures life - the letter without the Spirit, kills. I drew an example of knowing things by the Spirit in my early walk and then later having them confirmed by the Word when I actually got around to reading that portion of scripture for the first time.

You don't have to agree with bibliolatry, but I see it all the time and so have some famous Christian thinkers.

The Pharisees were a classic example of "Biblicists", engaging in Bibliolatry.

Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Here are some quotes:

"One of the dangers from which the Church should pray to be delivered is idolatry of the letter of Scripture. The letter exists for the spirit, not the spirit for the letter. Literalism is the grave in which spiritual religion is buried. The New Testament is a book which is to be spiritually interpreted. It has no greater enemy than the thorough-going literalist who would fetter its free thought by confining it within obsolete forms. It has no greater friend than the teacher who can give to its time-worn metaphors freshness and power by translating them into the language of the present." (James M. Campbell - The Heart of the Gospel: A Popular Exposition of the Doctrine of the Atonement.Fleming H. Revell Co. 1907. pg. 19)

"We are not to make the Torah into God Himself, nor the Bible into a "paper pope." The Bible is only the result of the Word of God. We can experience the return of the Word of God in the here and now, the perpetual return of the actual, living, indisputable Word of God that makes possible the act of witnessing, but we should never think of the Bible as any sort of talisman or oracle constantly at our disposal that we need only open and read to be in relation to the Word of God and God Himself." (Jacques Ellul - Living Faith: Belief and Doubt in a Perilous World.Harper and Row San Francisco, 1983. pg. 191)

"The Bible is not an end in itself, but a means to bring men to an intimate and satisfying knowledge of God, that they may enter into Him, that they may delight in His Presence, may taste and know the inner sweetness of the very God Himself in the core and center of their hearts." (A. W. Tozer, The Pursuit of God. Christian Publications. 1948. pg. 10).

"The Bible is the written word of God, and because it is written it is confined and limited by the necessities of ink and paper and leather. The Voice of God, however, is alive and free as the sovereign God is free. 'The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.' The life is in the speaking words. God's word in the Bible can have power only because it corresponds to God's Word in the universe. It is the present Voice which makes the written word powerful. Otherwise it would lie locked in slumber within the covers of a book." (A. W. Tozer, The Pursuit of God. Christian Publications. 1948. pg. 74).

"We must stop using the Bible as though it were a potpourri of inerrant proof-texts by which we can bring people into bondage to our religious traditions. (For in practice the only inerrancy we ever defend is the inerrancy of our religious traditions and our way of reading the Bible.) We must no longer use the Bible as the Pharisees used the Torah when they gave it absolute and final status. Christian biblicism is no different from Jewish legalism. It is the old way of the letter, not the new way of the Spirit (Rom. 7:6)." (Brinsmead, Robert D. "A Freedom from Biblicism" in The Christian Verdict, Essay 14, 1984. Fallbrook: Verdict Publications. Pg. 14).

Haz,
Regarding Epi, I have seen other statements by him regarding God's grace and forgiveness. I don't believe that he espouses "sinless perfection", but I do think he believes that God requires holiness and maturity and why shouldn't He? We now have His Spirit indwelling us. But, I will let Epi speak. And, according to Heb 12, if one is without chastisement, one just may not be a true son but a false son.


Axehead

 

[seekandfind]

Hi seekandfind,

To be clear. I do love the Scriptures. But Christianity is not a book religion as many have made it (such as Islam and their Koran). We serve a living, dynamic God who wants to lead us daily by His Word and His Spirit. The Spirit gives the Scriptures life - the letter without the Spirit, kills. I drew an example of knowing things by the Spirit in my early walk and then later having them confirmed by the Word when I actually got around to reading that portion of scripture for the first time.

You don't have to agree with bibliolatry, but I see it all the time and so have some famous Christian thinkers.

The Pharisees were a classic example of "Biblicists", engaging in Bibliolatry.

Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Here are some quotes:

"One of the dangers from which the Church should pray to be delivered is idolatry of the letter of Scripture. The letter exists for the spirit, not the spirit for the letter. Literalism is the grave in which spiritual religion is buried. The New Testament is a book which is to be spiritually interpreted. It has no greater enemy than the thorough-going literalist who would fetter its free thought by confining it within obsolete forms. It has no greater friend than the teacher who can give to its time-worn metaphors freshness and power by translating them into the language of the present." (James M. Campbell - The Heart of the Gospel: A Popular Exposition of the Doctrine of the Atonement.Fleming H. Revell Co. 1907. pg. 19)

"We are not to make the Torah into God Himself, nor the Bible into a "paper pope." The Bible is only the result of the Word of God. We can experience the return of the Word of God in the here and now, the perpetual return of the actual, living, indisputable Word of God that makes possible the act of witnessing, but we should never think of the Bible as any sort of talisman or oracle constantly at our disposal that we need only open and read to be in relation to the Word of God and God Himself." (Jacques Ellul - Living Faith: Belief and Doubt in a Perilous World.Harper and Row San Francisco, 1983. pg. 191)

"The Bible is not an end in itself, but a means to bring men to an intimate and satisfying knowledge of God, that they may enter into Him, that they may delight in His Presence, may taste and know the inner sweetness of the very God Himself in the core and center of their hearts." (A. W. Tozer, The Pursuit of God. Christian Publications. 1948. pg. 10).

"The Bible is the written word of God, and because it is written it is confined and limited by the necessities of ink and paper and leather. The Voice of God, however, is alive and free as the sovereign God is free. 'The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.' The life is in the speaking words. God's word in the Bible can have power only because it corresponds to God's Word in the universe. It is the present Voice which makes the written word powerful. Otherwise it would lie locked in slumber within the covers of a book." (A. W. Tozer, The Pursuit of God. Christian Publications. 1948. pg. 74).

"We must stop using the Bible as though it were a potpourri of inerrant proof-texts by which we can bring people into bondage to our religious traditions. (For in practice the only inerrancy we ever defend is the inerrancy of our religious traditions and our way of reading the Bible.) We must no longer use the Bible as the Pharisees used the Torah when they gave it absolute and final status. Christian biblicism is no different from Jewish legalism. It is the old way of the letter, not the new way of the Spirit (Rom. 7:6)." (Brinsmead, Robert D. "A Freedom from Biblicism" in The Christian Verdict, Essay 14, 1984. Fallbrook: Verdict Publications. Pg. 14).

Axehead,

That passage is so often taken out of context.

Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

He was not telling them not to search the scriptures not in any way, if He was then Paul would be contradicting Jesus and Paul didn't contradict HIM.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Let's go further into the same chapter that you referenced:

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
John 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

All of the other examples that you gave are opinions of men. We have a personal responsibility to know what the scriptures actually say with God revealing them to us, just like Jesus did when He had risen from the dead and opened up the scriptures to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus, and later to the other disciples when he ate with them. Luke Ch.24
We may not always understand the scriptures but we wait on Him to reveal His truth.

The problem isn't with studying the bible friend, the problem involves not studying the word.

Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

We are not to be blind followers, and although I will not speak against any of the references that you made by men who support your belief, they are references made by men. Do we follow men or God?

You gave no biblical references to support the idea of "Bibliolatry" but you referenced a lot a lot of opinions.

 

[Axehead]

seekandfind,

I don't know how you missed my point, but you certainly did.

We know there are Biblicists and "Scholars" today that nullify the Word of God with their textual criticism and "scholarship" and they show that they have absolutely no relationship with the Spirit of God by their "wresting" of the Scriptures. They twist, pervert and mangle them.


1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Axehead

 

[seekandfind]

I do not disagree that there are those who live by the letter, and that is no different from the Pharisees.

They hear the word only, and they don't do what it say to do.

There has been so much division in the church since the beginning of the early church, and different denominations teach set doctrines that many times, if a person steps out of those set doctrines and digs deeper into the word they are put out of churches. I know several people who have experienced this first hand.

Jesus said this to the scribes and Pharisees,

Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

We need to be disciples of Jesus and make sure that any doctrine lines up with HIS word.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

The words that HE spoke are written.

Forgive me if I misunderstood your original meaning, I've dealt with many who deny the scriptures all-together and it is a snare especially for a new believer and can cause one to stumble. There is no such thing as "bibliolatry." I will stand by that.

Terms like that only bring doubt to someone who might be studying, I know this because I dealt with this myself. Early on when I began studying the word, I heard a preacher teaching against studying. It really shook me up. Of course it would, who would ever want to be considered and idolater?

I prayed about this, and Jesus revealed the answer through His word, and He continues to reveal the importance of the written word. Each time I study I see more on the subject.

 

[Axehead]

I do not disagree that there are those who live by the letter, and that is no different from the Pharisees.

They hear the word only, and they don't do what it say to do.

There has been so much division in the church since beginning of the early church, and different denominations teach set doctrines that many times, if a person steps out of those set doctrines and dig deeper into the word they are put out of churches. I know several people who have experienced this first hand.

Jesus said this to the scribes and Pharisees,

Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

We need to be disciples of Jesus and make sure that any doctrine lines up with HIS word.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

The words that HE spoke are written.

And what about His commandments to you, personally? Of course, they do not contradict Scripture or lead one into sin. That would not be His voice, would it?
The Spirit gives the written letter, life and the Spirit leads us into all truth?

Christianity is not a belief system, it is a relationship with a Person through the Spirit and the Word. That is true. Men have taken the Bible and tried to codify it and created various belief systems. The problem is that you cannot codify a dynamic relationship.

Peace,
Axehead

 

[seekandfind]

And what about His commandments to you, personally? Of course, they do not contradict Scripture or lead one into sin. That would not be His voice, would it?
The Spirit gives the written letter, life and the Spirit leads us into all truth?

Christianity is not a belief system, it is a relationship with a Person through the Spirit and the Word. That is true. Men have taken the Bible and tried to codify it and created various belief systems. The problem is that you cannot codify a dynamic relationship.

Peace,
Axehead

I don't disagree with that at all. However, we can't separate the two. I am still learning and still maturing, but I see that even Peter who walked with Jesus had to be corrected in one scriptural example. Paul corrected him when he separated himself from the gentiles when they were eating because he was more interested in being pleasing in the sight of men. There are many, many things in the scriptures that I do not understand. One thing I do know is that even the things that we don't understand, if we ask HIM and wait. He will reveal it when we are ready to receive it. How can we walk in something if it hasn't been revealed yet?

I owe you an apology Axehead, I can be very overly zealous at times, and there are things that should be brought to a person privately. Forgive me for my error.

I don't like to debate much at all, yet I do it.

 

[Axehead]

I don't disagree with that at all. However, we can't separate the two. I am still learning and still maturing, but I see that even Peter who walked with Jesus had to be corrected in one scriptural example. Paul corrected him when he separated himself from the gentiles when they were eating because he was more interested in being pleasing in the sight of men. There are many, many things in the scriptures that I do not understand. One thing I do know is that even the things that we don't understand, if we ask HIM and wait. He will reveal it when we are ready to receive it. How can we walk in something if it hasn't been revealed yet?

I owe you an apology Axehead, I can be very overly zealous at times, and there are things that should be brought to a person privately. Forgive me for my error.

I don't like to debate much at all, yet I do it.

Not a problem seekandfind. Everything's cool. I much rather prefer fellowship and opening of God's Word to debate, any day. Looking forward to conversing with you in other discussions.

Axehead

 

[haz]

Hi haz,

I am 99.9% sure that if Episkopos mentioned the 10 commandments, it was because you had put them in a question. You quoted him:

[/i]

Do you understand that Jesus gave commandments which are not in the Mosaic law? Obeying Him is a separate challenge.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Hi dragonfly and Axehead,

I'm sure you agree that misunderstandings can easily occur on forums. We may not always use clear enough wording and then there are our own pre-concieved views etc that also hinder full understanding of another.

Initially I asked Epi questions to clarify as best as possible if he was really saying that perfect obedience to the 10 commandments determined whether one was abiding in Christ or not.
Eventually I concluded from his own words (as per quotes provided) that in fact Epi was claiming that perfect obedience to the 10 commandments was a must.
He even admitted his own likely condemnation as he himself failed to keep them perfectly at this point of his life. He claimed that (his understanding of) "truth", even though it made Christ harder to attain and thus resulted in condemnation, was more important than following favourable/fantasy doctrines that offered easy salvation.

Both Epi and I believe those scriptures about "sinless perfection" (e.g 1John 3:6-9, 1Pet 4:1). BUT we each have different understandings of them.

Epi believed in physical proof in this life, now, for one to be abiding in Christ.

However, my understanding is somewhat similar to yours (but we disagree in wording) in that we won't see physical proof of perfection in this life. But we are in "sinless perfection" regardless, as our body is dead because of sin (Rom 8:10). It was crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6). As our life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3) we are thus righteous, holy (Rom 11:16), sanctified (Heb 10:10) and perfected (Heb 10:14). This is providing we continue in Christ and do not fail the grace of God turning back to unbelief (e.g works of the law).

And as Christians we do those things that are pleasing in His sight, as described in 1John 3:22-24

"[sup] [/sup]And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. [sup] [/sup]And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us"

 

[dragonfly]

Hi haz,

Both Epi and I believe those scriptures about "sinless perfection" (e.g 1John 3:6-9, 1Pet 4:1). BUT we each have different understandings of them.

I still think that your questions to Episkopos at the start, were a kind of entrapment, and if you hadn't asked those questions, he would not have given those answers.

I also think that 'sinless perfection' as a term of reference, is a dead horse, as its originator had moved away from it by the time he died. It is far more help and of edification to the body of Christ, to look at what the scriptures actually say, and then provoke one another to faith in God's word.

 

[haz]

Hi haz,
I still think that your questions to Episkopos at the start, were a kind of entrapment, and if you hadn't asked those questions, he would not have given those answers.

I also think that 'sinless perfection' as a term of reference, is a dead horse, as its originator had moved away from it by the time he died. It is far more help and of edification to the body of Christ, to look at what the scriptures actually say, and then provoke one another to faith in God's word.

Hi dragonfly,

It seems we won't agree on this one.
Epi's doctrine was one of making Christ harder to attain and about perfect obedience to the commandments as proof of abiding in Christ, which he himself falied to do hence he was not abiding in Christ himself (hence Epi admitted that his doctrine possibly would condemn himself). My asking questions to clarify if this was in fact what he was saying is far from entrapment.
Either you missed or don't understand what Epi is saying or you agree with his false gospel and make false allegations to support him.

I agree with your point about the edification of the body but, when works of the law are being preached as part of the gospel then scriptures makes it very clear that such are not part of the body.

Your claim that we "look at what the scriptures actually say," is valid but it requires understanding which only comes through the Spirit within us.
Scriptures say that in Christ we cannot sin and anyone who sins is not abiding in Christ.

Epi accepted these scriptures for exactly what they said but misunderstood them believing in physical evidence of perfect obedience to the 10 commandments.

You seem to be saying Christians can sin whilst abiding in Christ (which contradicts scripture).

My understanding is that Christians cannot sin whilst abiding in Christ, but I do not refer to the physical as it is dead because of sin (Rom 8:10).

 

[dragonfly]

Hi dragonfly,

It seems we won't agree on this one.
Epi's doctrine was one of making Christ harder to attain and about perfect obedience to the commandments as proof of abiding in Christ, which he himself falied to do hence he was not abiding in Christ himself (hence Epi admitted that his doctrine possibly would condemn himself). My asking questions to clarify if this was in fact what he was saying is far from entrapment.
Either you missed or don't understand what Epi is saying or you agree with his false gospel and make false allegations to support him.

I agree with your point about the edification of the body but, when works of the law are being preached as part of the gospel then scriptures makes it very clear that such are not part of the body.

Your claim that we "look at what the scriptures actually say," is valid but it requires understanding which only comes through the Spirit within us.
Scriptures say that in Christ we cannot sin and anyone who sins is not abiding in Christ.

Epi accepted these scriptures for exactly what they said but misunderstood them believing in physical evidence of perfect obedience to the 10 commandments.

You seem to be saying Christians can sin whilst abiding in Christ (which contradicts scripture).

My understanding is that Christians cannot sin whilst abiding in Christ, but I do not refer to the physical as it is dead because of sin (Rom 8:10).

Hi haz,

The key is 1 John 1:7. Very clear. Very simple. Walk in the light as He is in the light and you are being cleansed from sin 24/7.