Actually Jesus returns twice...

[Davy]

I would think if Jesus left on a white horse...they would have written about it.

My turn to use your faulty logic...

'I would think if Jesus intended you to be saved He would have mentioned your name in written Scripture'.

How's that for fair use of YOUR silly logic?

 

[rwb]

Actually Jesus returns twice...

No, this is not what Scripture teaches. The Bible shows us that Christ has come ONCE and that He shall come AGAIN when the seventh/last trumpet sounds that time shall be no longer.

Isaiah 7:14 (KJV) Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Luke 2:7 (KJV) And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

Matthew 1:21-23 (KJV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:15 (KJV) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

My turn to use your faulty logic...

'I would think if Jesus intended you to be saved He would have mentioned your name in written Scripture'.

How's that for fair use of YOUR silly logic?

Now, here's something we can agree on. His logic, which is typical of pre-trib logic, is ridiculous and this was a good way to illustrate that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How many people do you think watched the ascention event?

Now, if you want to go the "symbolic" route....Jesus didn't leave with that symolism.

What are you intending to say here exactly? Be more specific if you want people to understand what you're saying. I have no idea of what your point is here.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You say Revelation 19 doesn't describe Jesus coming to the earth and that the sword from His mouth is symbolic of judgment through His word.

If that's your view, what do you make of 2 Thessalonians 2:8? And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

What do you understand 'the brightness of his coming' to refer to?

Notice the parallels with Revelation 19

'And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth...'

Paul says the Lord destroys the lawless one with 'the spirit of his mouth.' John says the sword proceeds from Christ's mouth. Ephesians 6:17 identifies the sword of the Spirit as the word of God.

So I agree that the sword is symbolic of Christ's word. But that doesn't remove the coming---it actually accompanies it.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:8, the lawless one is destroyed by His word--and by the brightness of His coming. Likewise, in Revelation 19, Christ judges with the sword from His mouth while He is visibly revealed as the rider on the white horse.

If the sword is symbolic in both passages, why would the coming in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 suddenly become symbolic or disappear altogether?

The strongest point is actually the grammar of 2 Thessalonians 2:8. Paul uses two coordinated means of judgment.

1. consume with the spirit of his mouth
2. destroy with the brightness of his coming

Even if someone understands the first as symbolic (His word), they still have to explain the second. The verse doesn't present the coming as identical to the word---it presents Christ's word and Christ's (coming/presence) as distinct but concurrent aspects of the same event.


Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


Why should anyone think that--the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth--is not the same thing meant here---whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth?

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Then if we consider the following

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Therefore, the spirit of his mouth and the sword which proceeded out of his mouth = the word of God.

So, IOW---And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the word of God, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

And the remnant were slain with the word of God of him that sat upon the horse, which proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

And that you need to explain the coming meant 2 Thessalonians 2:8 and why, in your view, Revelation 19 is not involving this same coming?

I agree with this reasoning. I believe there is a definite direct relation between 2 Thessalonians 2:8 and Revelation 19:11-21 and they are clearly the same event, which is the future second coming of Christ.

 

[CrowCross]

No, this is not what Scripture teaches. The Bible shows us that Christ has come ONCE and that He shall come AGAIN when the seventh/last trumpet sounds that time shall be no longer.

Where is this verse???

 

[CrowCross]

What are you intending to say here exactly? Be more specific if you want people to understand what you're saying. I have no idea of what your point is here.

I was saying Jesus didn't leave in a symbolic manner. The angels in Acts 1 said Jesus would return in the same way He left.
In Acts Jesus didn't leave on a white horse nor with the symbolism you presented.

 

[Douggg]

Where is this verse???

The thread topic can be complicated to talk about. There are no two comings of Jesus back to live on earth.

There is will be a coming, i.e. one coming, of Jesus to live on earth again, the day of His return, in Revelation 19:19 and Ezekiel 39:21-29.

Differently, and earlier, Jesus coming for the resurrection/rapture event of 1Thessalonians 4:14-18 is expressed as appearing the "second time" for persons who are looking for Him... in Hebrew 9:28. Jesus does not touch down on earth again for that coming.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

In 1Thessalonians5:9-11, we read...

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Those verses are talking about Jesus's coming for the resurrection/rapture event.

Salvation is two part.
1. the redemption of our soul - i.e. when we believe upon Jesus's death on the cross for atonement of our sins.
2. the redemption of our bodies - i.e. receiving our eternal life, everlasting, incorruptible bodies.

 

[rwb]

Where is this verse???

Repost #22

No, this is not what Scripture teaches. The Bible shows us that Christ has come ONCE and that He shall come AGAIN when the seventh/last trumpet sounds that time shall be no longer.

Isaiah 7:14 (KJV) Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Luke 2:7 (KJV) And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

Matthew 1:21-23 (KJV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:15 (KJV) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[CrowCross]

The thread topic can be complicated to talk about. There are no two comings of Jesus back to live on earth.

There is will be a coming, i.e. one coming, of Jesus to live on earth again, the day of His return, in Revelation 19:19 and Ezekiel 39:21-29.

Differently, and earlier, Jesus coming for the resurrection/rapture event of 1Thessalonians 4:14-18 is expressed as appearing the "second time" for persons who are looking for Him... in Hebrew 9:28. Jesus does not touch down on earth again for that coming.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

In 1Thessalonians5:9-11, we read...

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Those verses are talking about Jesus's coming for the resurrection/rapture event.

Salvation is two part.
1. the redemption of our soul - i.e. when we believe upon Jesus's death on the cross for atonement of our sins.
2. the redemption of our bodies - i.e. receiving our eternal life, everlasting, incorruptible bodies.

You didn't provide the verse.

 

[CrowCross]

Repost #22

No, this is not what Scripture teaches. The Bible shows us that Christ has come ONCE and that He shall come AGAIN when the seventh/last trumpet sounds that time shall be no longer.

Isaiah 7:14 (KJV) Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Luke 2:7 (KJV) And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

Matthew 1:21-23 (KJV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:15 (KJV) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

You're verses didn't even mention trumpets.

 

[rwb]

You're verses didn't even mention trumpets.

You must have missed this passage, I've highlighted in red the mention of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound. Put this passage together with the other verses I listed and we learn that we are given a limited time to be eternally saved. Time which ends with the second and only coming again of Christ.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[CrowCross]

You must have missed this passage, I've highlighted in red the mention of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound. Put this passage together with the other verses I listed and we learn that we are given a limited time to be eternally saved. Time which ends with the second and only coming again of Christ.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

I have no clue as to where your going...but you still didn't mention a trumpet in your post.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I was saying Jesus didn't leave in a symbolic manner.

No one has said that He did. So, why did you feel the need to say that?

The angels in Acts 1 said Jesus would return in the same way He left.

Exactly. No one has said otherwise. The way He left was visibly and physically.

In Acts Jesus didn't leave on a white horse nor with the symbolism you presented.

He will not return literally on a white horse. But, even if He did, that would not contradict what is written in Acts 1:11. If He returned on a white horse that would still mean He is returning visibly and physically as He left. Acts 1:11 is not saying He left not riding on a white horse and He will return not riding on a white horse. The text indicates He was literally seen ascending towards heaven, so He will be literally seen descending from heaven when He returns. That's all it is saying.

But, how can you not recognize the symbolism in Revelation 19? Do you think He will be literally slaying people with a literal sword coming out of His mouth when He returns? Do you think He will be literally treading people in a winepress when He returns?

 

[Douggg]

You didn't provide the verse.

I was addressing the thread topic of "Actually Jesus returns twice..."

Your are correct that I did not give a verse of Jesus's return to live on this earth based on the thinking of some (not me) that the "last" trumpet of 1Corinthians15:52 as being the 7th trumpet of Revelation.

1Corinthians 15:52 is referring to the resurrection/rapture event - not Jesus's return to live again on the earth. The resurrection/rapture event will happen long before the 7th trumpet of Revelation sounds.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The thread topic can be complicated to talk about.

It's not complicated at all. The person who created this thread is making it very complicated for no good reason. And you also make it more complicated than it is.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have no clue as to where your going...but you still didn't mention a trumpet in your post.

You don't think that Revelation 10:5-7 mentions a trumpet? Is refers to the seventh trumpet. Please try to read what people are saying more carefully.

 

[rwb]

I have no clue as to where your going...but you still didn't mention a trumpet in your post.

The seventh angel is given a trumpet to sound, and the passage in Rev 10 I showed you says when the seventh angel begins to sound "time shall be no longer." In this passage below we read that when the seventh angel sounded the kingdoms of this world become of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever. And the time for wrath is come, time of the dead that they should be judged. The dead are judged at the great white throne after the thousand years (time) is finished. There shall be no more time given for man to be saved after the seventh angel begins to sound. The only time left then shall be Satan's little season after he is loosed out of his prison.

Revelation 11:15 (KJV) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 11:18 (KJV) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 20:7 (KJV) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Marty fox]

You say Revelation 19 doesn't describe Jesus coming to the earth and that the sword from His mouth is symbolic of judgment through His word.

If that's your view, what do you make of 2 Thessalonians 2:8? And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

What do you understand 'the brightness of his coming' to refer to?

Notice the parallels with Revelation 19

'And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth...'

Paul says the Lord destroys the lawless one with 'the spirit of his mouth.' John says the sword proceeds from Christ's mouth. Ephesians 6:17 identifies the sword of the Spirit as the word of God.

So I agree that the sword is symbolic of Christ's word. But that doesn't remove the coming---it actually accompanies it.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:8, the lawless one is destroyed by His word--and by the brightness of His coming. Likewise, in Revelation 19, Christ judges with the sword from His mouth while He is visibly revealed as the rider on the white horse.

If the sword is symbolic in both passages, why would the coming in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 suddenly become symbolic or disappear altogether?

The strongest point is actually the grammar of 2 Thessalonians 2:8. Paul uses two coordinated means of judgment.

1. consume with the spirit of his mouth
2. destroy with the brightness of his coming

Even if someone understands the first as symbolic (His word), they still have to explain the second. The verse doesn't present the coming as identical to the word---it presents Christ's word and Christ's (coming/presence) as distinct but concurrent aspects of the same event.


Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


Why should anyone think that--the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth--is not the same thing meant here---whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth?

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Then if we consider the following

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Therefore, the spirit of his mouth and the sword which proceeded out of his mouth = the word of God.

So, IOW---And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the word of God, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

And the remnant were slain with the word of God of him that sat upon the horse, which proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

And that you need to explain the coming meant 2 Thessalonians 2:8 and why, in your view, Revelation 19 is not involving this same coming?

They are the same and symbolic for the same thing.

The sword of Jesus mouth is His word which judges, saved and convicts. We agree on this

The brightness of His coming is that Jesus is the light that overcomes darkness

John 1
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Light destroys darkness. Jesus is the light and evil is the darkness, the light distinguishes the darkness.

 

[ewq1938]

I was saying Jesus didn't leave in a symbolic manner. The angels in Acts 1 said Jesus would return in the same way He left.
In Acts Jesus didn't leave on a white horse nor with the symbolism you presented.

It doesn't say returning in the same exact way, or same exact details. It just says he will return in the same manner. He rose up into heaven from Earth, so he will descend from heaven to Earth at the second coming.

He left alone but he returns with many.
He left without horse or mouth sword and multiple crowns but returns with all of them
He left in peace but returns for war.