"All Israel shall be saved" According to Postponement Theology

[texian]

"All Israel shall be saved" According to Postponement Theology

Before postponement theology took over most of the
evangelical denominations Protestants taught that scripture must
interpret scripture.
This means that Romans 11: 26 is to be interpreted to be consistent
with what Paul said in Romans 2: 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8, Galatians 4: 25-26 and
Galatians 3: 16-18, 28-29. To say that all physical
Israel will be saved contradicts his distinction between the two Israels he
consistently distinguishes between. The postponement people try to wiggle
out of this by using the argument from contexts, or they simply try to
ignore what Paul said
in those texts, Romans 2: 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8 and in Galatians 4:
25-26.

Paul says in these three scriptures that there are two different Israels. And
when he says "all Israel shall be saved" in Romans 11: 26 which Israel is he
talking about? He does not repeat Romans 2: 28-29 or Romans 9: 6-8 in
Romans 11,
but assumes the reader already knows there is a physical Israel who
are not the children
of God and an Israel that is the children of God. The Israel who is
the children
of God is the Israel which is saved, and so "all Israel shall be saved."

So postponement theology argues from its theology, in effect, because
it interprets Romans 11: 26 to be consistent with its theology rather
than New Testament scripture.

Its another Gospel.

Postponement theology people will
insist that the Old Testament prophecies on the restoration of
physical Israel must
have their fulfillment during the tribulation when God, they say, will
save "all Israel." At least for this doctrine, they will not accept
the Protestant use of the New Testament to interpret the Old
Testament, when there is a New Testament text that does so.

Amos 9: 11, for example, as one of the restoration of Israel prophecies, says
"In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen,
and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and
I will build it as in the days of old:"

Postponement people will say this, among other Old Testament
prophecies, predicts
that "all Israel" shall be saved during the tribulation. But James in
Acts 15: 7-9 and 13-17 quotes and
interprets Amos 9: 11, as an example of the Old Testament restoration
of Israel prophecies. "Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and
brethren, ye know how that
a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my
mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them
the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9. And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts
by faith....And after they had held their peace, James answered,
saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14. Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles,
to take out of them a people for his name.
15. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16. After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of
David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof,
and I will set it up: 17. That the residue of men might seek after the
Lord, and all the
Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all
these things."

James says "to this agree the words of the prophets." Meaning all the
prophets who wrote about the restoration of physical Israel, including
Hosea 3: 5, Amos 9: 11, Micah 5: 3, and Zechariah 12: 10, and other
prophecies that talk about some restoration of Israel.

The postponement follower might deal with Acts 15 by giving a literal
interpretation
of Amos 9: 11, and perhaps bringing in other Old Testament prophecies on the
restoration and imply that this rules over what is said in Acts 15. He may try
also to limit Acts 15 somehow to the context of the crisis of the
conflict between the
Pharisees
who believed saying all Christians must be circumcised to be saved,
and Paul's teaching among the Gentiles that circumcision was done away with.

The literal postulate of postponement theology and its other postulate
that "all Israel" must be honored leads the followers of this theology
to refuse to see the meaning of what James says in Acts 15: 15, that
the prophets, not just Amos in 9: 11, all agree with what Peter said,
that God has taken out some from the Gentiles to make them his people
and puts no difference in the New Covenant between them and the
Christians who were formerly Jews or Israelites. There is no more
chosen people by race under the New Covenant. Find a New Testament
text which says God still chooses his people based upon race.

The literal bent of the postponement crowd causes them to try to limit
what James said to Amos 9: 11, and in addition, to just the literal
sentence James is said to have spoken, "Simeon hath declared how God
at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for
his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is
written..." In other words, their wiggling out of Acts 15 is to say
that James was only talking about Amos 9: 11, and that there are other
Old Testament prophecies like it on the restoration of physical
Israel, and these still apply, and in addition James was only talking
about bringing in the Gentiles, while the people who are Israelites by
race remain God's people. The New Testament does not say this
anywhere. You have to deal with John 1: 11, " He came unto his own,
and his own received him not," and Matthew 8: 11-12, "And I say unto
you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down
with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the
children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there
shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

In effect, postponement theology raises up the Old Testament
prophecies as having authority over the New Testament scriptures and
this is a subtle and deceptive way of mixing the Old with the New
Covenant, which is false doctrine. Since the majority of physical
Israelites rejected Christ and were cut off because of this unbelief
(Romans 11: 20), to honor them as "all Israel " is to bring in the
spirit of anti-Christ. To say this is not indicating hatred for the
physical Israelites who rejected Christ, but it is to protect and
support the New Covenant, into which they could have joined. Read Paul
in I Thessalonians 2: 14-16, and in Philippians 3: 2-9.

 

[veteran]

You're confused.


Rom 11:25-32
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

Paul is quoting from OT Scripture like Isaiah 59...


Isa 59:20-21
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21 As for Me, this is My covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and My words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.
(KJV)

Paul is specifically talking about the natural seed of Israel, not the idea of spiritual Israel. The difference with the 'all' idea, is that God is going to remove that blindness Paul mentioned away from all the unbelievers of Israel, a blindness that God Himself has put upon them so Salvation could go also to the Gentiles! And after that blindness is removed which has caused unbelieving Israel to refuse Christ, and then IF some still... refuse Christ Jesus as God's Promised Saviour, those will still be cut off. Problem is though, no one knows who all that includes yet.


Rom.11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

As Paul says, concerning The Gospel, those among Israel that refuse Christ are enemies for the Gentiles' sakes. But for the purposes of God's election, they are beloved to God.


Rom.11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.
(KJV)

God has blinded many of the seed of Israel so that His Salvation would go also to the Gentiles. That's specifically WHY those have been blinded away from The Gospel of Jesus Christ. As Gentiles were once strangers away from God's promises and covenants, and have now become 'nigh' to them through Christ (as per Eph.2), the Gentiles have become 'Ammi' (My people) to God. And through God's mercy for Gentiles that would believe, these also are to obtain mercy. They were put in unbelief so that God might have mercy upon all.

 

[texian]

veteran: "Paul is specifically talking about the natural seed of Israel, not the idea of spiritual Israel. The difference with the 'all' idea, is that God is going to remove that blindness Paul mentioned away from all the unbelievers of Israel, a blindness that God Himself has put upon them so Salvation could go also to the Gentiles! And after that blindness is removed which has caused unbelieving Israel to refuse Christ, and then IF some still... refuse Christ Jesus as God's Promised Saviour, those will still be cut off. Problem is though, no one knows who all that includes ye"

To interpret Romans 11: 26, "all Israel shall be saved," as the "natural seed of Israel," is following postponement theology, and not what Paul says
in Romans 2: 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8 and Galatians 4: 25-26. The "context" of quoting Isaiah 59: 20-21 on the coming of the Redeemer, Christ, to Zion does not make Romans 11: 26 say that "All Israel: is all physical Israel. In fact, when you look at what the Gospel in the New Testament says about Christ's pruning of physical Israel (John 15: 6) and the cutting off of unbelieving physical Israel in Romans 11: 20, the appearance of the Redeemer and the doctrines of his truth (John 14: 6) and Paul's division of Israel into two Israels, Isaiah 59: 20-21, if interpreted by the New Testament, would support "all Israel" as being that Israel reborn in Christ and all Israel is saved.

Again, until a follower of postponement theology changes his interpretative authority from the theology to scripture interpreting scripture, there can be no change for that follower.

And in Romans 11: 25, "blindness in part has happened to Israel," does not say that God caused a large part of Israel to be blinded so that the Gentiles could be brought in. He simply says blindness has happened to a part of Israel.

But in II Thessalonians 2: 10-11 the inspired scripture does say "God shall send them strong delusion." Who is 'them?" Its those who are caught in the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3, which includes the followers of postponement theology.

Nowhere in the New Testament does it say that God will remove the blindness from physical Israel as a group, though he has done it for a very small remnant. To cause "all Israel" to be saved would mean God would repent of having pruned down physical Israel so that as a remnant it would bear spiritual fruit, would repent of his transformation of physical Israel into Israel reborn in Christ (John 3: 1-6), and of Matthew 8: 11-12, which says "The children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness;"

 

[prism]

Again, until a follower of postponement theology changes his interpretative authority from the theology to scripture interpreting scripture, there can be no change for that follower.

We find that as we do allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, we see that the Prophecies have been fulfilled literally, so why should we now begin to take a figurative/'spiritual' approach to the future fulfillment of prophecies?

 

[texian]

"We find that as we do allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, we see that the Prophecies have been fulfilled literally, so why should we now begin to take a figurative/'spiritual' approach to the future fulfillment of prophecies? "

What prophecies have been fulfilled literally? This statement is ambiguous and just confuses the issue, which is what the dialectic method of argument sometimes tries to do.

Romans 11: 26 "all Israel shall be saved" is not a prophecy. Its a statement about the saved nature of all who belong to that Israel that Paul defines in Romans 9: 6-8 and in Galatians 4: 25-26. Postponement theology cannot accept Paul's division of Israel into two Israels because this theology starts from a foundation of honoring all Israel.

Followers of postponement theology - or dispensationalism - have no idea of what position they have got themselves into as far as
faith in the Gospel of Christ is concerned by honoring "all Israel."

The concern with the "figurative/spiritual approach" by dispensationalism is one key to understanding what the blindness was that happened
to most of physical Israel, that Paul mentions in Romans 11: 25. A good part of that same blindness has happened to dispensationalism, and in great part its because of its focus on "all Israel," rather than that saved Israel Paul distinguishes from physical Israel not reborn in Christ.

It can be said that the blindness that happened to physical Israel was their belief that their acceptance by God was secure in their being literal physical descendants of Abraham. God changed the rules and its very hard for dispensationalists to see this in the encounter between Nicodemus the Pharisee and Christ in John 3: 1-6. Christ told this Pharisee that he had to be born again.

But there is more to the blindness of physical Israel - and of dispensationalism - than an insistence on the continuation of the chosen people status into the New Covenant.

Physical Israelites understood their covenant to be in the physical. Entry was by literal physical descent from Abraham, circumcision was in the literal, physical flesh, and a literal temple building was their central place of worship. They thought that when their Messiah appeared he would set up a physical kingdom on earth. Right before Christ departed his disciples asked him in Acts 1: 6:

"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" They meant the physical kingdom like that of David's time.

Christ came and talked about parables and metaphors and his kingdom was a spiritual one. So part of their blindness was due to that literal bent, that fixation on the physical of Israel after the flesh..

. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." I Corinthians 2: 14

Dispensationalism - or postponement theology - continues that very same blindness, which is a continuation of the doctrine of the chosen people based upon race and of the doctrine that scripture must always be literal and that the physical has not been replaced by the spiritual.

 

[veteran]

In below Scripture, Apostle Paul is speaking TO Gentiles, but ABOUT Paul's flesh brethren of the seed of Israel. It cannot be twisted around to point to anyone else.

Rom 11:25-32
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
(KJV)


In the Scripture in bold, Paul quoted from Isaiah 59 which is ONLY about the flesh seed of Jacob.

 

[texian]

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
(KJV)


In the Scripture in bold, Paul quoted from Isaiah 59 which is ONLY about the flesh seed of Jacob"

Because the follower of postponement theology cannot change his view - due to the strong delusion of II Thessalonians 2: 10-11 - he gets into endless debate, using interpretations of Old and New Testament scripture by his theology.

"For this is my covenant with them, when I shall take away their sins," is talking about the New Covenant, not the old. Isaiah 27: 9 , "By this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged," is with the verses before it in this chapter, a prophecy for the coming of the New Covenant. Referring to Jacob rather than Israel does not necessarily mean Isaiah is talking about unredeemed physical Israel, the children of the flesh.

Hebrews 8: 12 is also about the New Covenant and agrees with Romans 11: 27,

"For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more."

Verse 10 of this chapter in Hebrews quotes Jeremiah 31: 31-33.

The danger of postponement theology is not only that its followers have another Gospel and do not have full faith in the New Testament. and are in a position of some unbelief, but Paul says of the Judaizers in Galatians 4: 29 that "...he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so is is now."

Paul is referring to Genesis 4: 8 where Cain killed Abel. Paul is saying that Cain followed the flesh, while Abel followed the spirit. Cain being a carnal man killed his spiritual brother.



Judaizers

 

[veteran]

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
(KJV)


In the Scripture in bold, Paul quoted from Isaiah 59 which is ONLY about the flesh seed of Jacob"

Because the follower of postponement theology cannot change his view - due to the strong delusion of II Thessalonians 2: 10-11 - he gets into endless debate, using interpretations of Old and New Testament scripture by his theology.

You're so Biblically illiterate, you don't even know the difference between OT and NT Scripture, nor how to recognize when OT Scripture is being quoted within the New Testament, like Aposlte Paul did there in Rom.11, as in all of his Epistles.

"For this is my covenant with them, when I shall take away their sins," is talking about the New Covenant, not the old. Isaiah 27: 9 , "By this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged," is with the verses before it in this chapter, a prophecy for the coming of the New Covenant. Referring to Jacob rather than Israel does not necessarily mean Isaiah is talking about unredeemed physical Israel, the children of the flesh.

Paul stated in Rom.11 that for many of flesh Israel they have been put under blindness until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That fullness time is not yet complete today. Paul contrasted 2 different groups of flesh Israel in that Romans 11 chapter, the first Israelites as the remnant according to the election of grace which are manifested under the New Covenant, and then the rest of Israel as still under blindness, and thus unbelief.

Hebrews 8: 12 is also about the New Covenant and agrees with Romans 11: 27,

"For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more."

Verse 10 of this chapter in Hebrews quotes Jeremiah 31: 31-33.

The danger of postponement theology is not only that its followers have another Gospel and do not have full faith in the New Testament. and are in a position of some unbelief, but Paul says of the Judaizers in Galatians 4: 29 that "...he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so is is now."

Paul is referring to Genesis 4: 8 where Cain killed Abel. Paul is saying that Cain followed the flesh, while Abel followed the spirit. Cain being a carnal man killed his spiritual brother.


Judaizers

You're listening to FALSE PROPHETS OF THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN.

And it's clear you're on men's doctrines of Replacement Theology, with the intent to disregard God's promises to the people of Israel, and to even try and wipe out the name Israel apart from The New Covenant Jesus Christ. Try as you may, but you can't do it, for God will be against you in that. So all you're doing is kicking against the pricks like Saul did before Christ converted him.

Like Paul said, God has not cast away His people which He did foreknow (Rom.11:2).

Further, if you had studied the Old Testament Books as we Christians are also... to do, you would have known the section of Isaiah Paul was quoting from gets into the time of Salvation with Christ's return.

Isa 59:18-20
18 According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay, fury to His adversaries, recompence to His enemies; to the islands He will repay recompence.
19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and His glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
(KJV)

The time of God's recompense upon His adversaries has not yet come. That specific enemy that shall come in like a flood is about the final antichrist/false messiah of our near future. NOR IS OUR REDEMPTION YET COMPLETED BY CHRIST, FOR HE HAS NOT RETURNED TO ZION YET PER THAT TIMING.


Jer 3:17-18
17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.
(KJV)

Like Paul Harvey says, "the rest of the story"...

Jer 31:31-40
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the LORD, Which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.
(KJV)

Couple of MAJOR time events given with that originally, 1- the joining of the two separate houses of Israel once again, which has yet to occur to this day, and 2 - those parts in blue bold which apply to specific places in the holy land which God gave to Israel, forever. The timing for that part is still expecting, JUST AS CHRIST'S SECOND COMING IS STILL EXPECTING.

It's actually the Judaizers that are on the false doctrines you follow, because they're actually the ones behind the Preterism ideas you're trying preach, ideas that Christ's Salvation is now completed and that we can now try to build His one-world kingdom over al the earth WITHOUT HIS RETURN TO THIS EARTH.

When Jesus died on the cross, His SPIRITUAL Kingdom became manifest through those who would believe, but NOT HIS LITERAL PHYSICAL KINGDOM ON EARTH YET, which HE will manifest at His RETURN. And THAT FUTURE TIME is when HE as The Redeemer will gather His elect to Zion on earth!

 

[texian]

"Because the follower of postponement theology cannot change his view - due to the strong delusion of II Thessalonians 2: 10-11 - he gets into endless debate, using interpretations of Old and New Testament scripture by his theology." And "veteran" fires off his guns in all directions claiming that following the Protestant procedure before postponement theology took over so much of Christianity that scripture should interpret scripture instead of man-made theology is replacement theology, Preterism, and that it is following Revelation 3: 9, the synagogue of Satan, implying this position is somehow in accord with the Jews who say they are Jews but are not. Unless, someone else on this forum has something new to say, its time to close this endless debate.

 

[veteran]

You don't even know what the "strong delusion" Paul mentioned in 2 Thess.2 is even about. And that especially if you're on Preterist doctrines from men.

You have blatantly denied that Apostle Paul was specifically pointing to his flesh brethren of Israel in the Romans 11 chapter, so there's probably not much you say that would be believable, since you REFUSE the Romans 11 chapter as written!!

Thus, the only working that leaves for you, is that you're telling lies, and you 'know' you're telling lies. May God rebuke you.