Anti-Creation = Anti-Christian = Anti-Semetism

[KingJ]

Of course not, but the point is....if you take any of them as 100% complete, literal timelines for the history of humanity, then the others are necessarily wrong.

The differences were well known when the bible was compiled. There are valid reasons / detailed explanations for them. They don't require faith and we can see their honest reasoning http://www.borderofinsanity.com/hosted/genesis-5-analysis.pdf.

You just move the goal posts further, you don't remove the fact that actual / literal years are given.

Fair enough .... but if you rely 100% on the literal scientist timelines that man evolved over 43 million years you could be wrong too

You appear to question the bible timeline but readily accept your own timeline .

Something not adding up here River.

It is around 1500 years. That is all we have to play with 4000 bc / 5500 bc.

Whenever I have seen a denomination insist that we must accept the creation stories (there are 2 seperate stories) of Genesis as a literal event, I remember 2 ministers whom I met in the 1960's. One insisted that I must accept the creation stories as literal, accept The Great Flood as literal, and accept The Tower of Babel as literal. It culminated with his insisting that I must accept the curse of Ham (Genesis 9:24-27) as literal, and also accept that it now applies to all who are of African descent. As a result I was to accept that the Ku Klux Klan was a Christian organization doing God's work. Needless to say, we parted company quickly.

The other minister who insisted that I must accept the creation stories as a literal event also insisted that I accept the founding of the Christian church as taking place not at Pentecost, but on Mt. Sinai with Moses. I was also to accept that we were still bound by the laws of Torah as interpreted by their hierarchy. This included my worshiping on Saturday rather than Sunday, as well as obeying not only the law against working on that day, but also all of the other laws which they had added to that 'no work' law in order to make it 'more holy'. We also departed company quickly.

So you will forgive me if I immediately become very suspicious of the true motives of anyone who insists that in order to be a Christian I need to turn off my intellect and instead accept blindly whatever they tell me. In my 68 years I've seen that ploy used enough times in the 'real world' to believe that it's anything other than an attempt to intimidate the people they've targeted by using Scripture itself as a smokescreen to hide their own agenda, namely, lust for power.

You have just learnt the importance of studying scripture properly. It is silly to throw the baby out with the bath water.

I agree in that we must always look to see beyond the smoke screen!!! Now only a little lateral thought is needed to deduce what evolution is hiding.

 

[Madad21]

Why is the creation story so hard to believe?
Do people really think that God could not create everything in 6 days?

I know its not a scientific account but does it have to be to be true?

The Bible is the whole counsel of God, I would assume that any doubts a Christian has in regard to any biblical event would soon be reconciled as we develop a closer relationship with God?

Im not insinuating that one should simply follow blindly, but why close yourself off to the possibility altogether?

I personally dont think that disbelief in the creation story jeopardises a person salvation, but I do think there needs to be a little more faith in what God is capable of. who are we to question him, were we there?

It just seems silly.

 

[River Jordan]

river Jordan isn't God more of a reliable source than people ...?God said Adam lived how long?

now if the days were millions of years and Adam was created on the 6th day and lived at least through day 7 then you got a real problem..

ESPECIALY WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT EVEYTHING JESUS HIMSELF SAYS ABOUT ADAM ..

But people also wrote the Bible. So if people are so unreliable, why do we believe what they wrote about God?

The differences were well known when the bible was compiled. There are valid reasons / detailed explanations for them. They don't require faith and we can see their honest reasoning http://www.borderofinsanity.com/hosted/genesis-5-analysis.pdf.

You just move the goal posts further, you don't remove the fact that actual / literal years are given.

If they're actual literal years, then the different genealogies contradict each other.

Why is the creation story so hard to believe?
Do people really think that God could not create everything in 6 days?

I know its not a scientific account but does it have to be to be true?

The Bible is the whole counsel of God, I would assume that any doubts a Christian has in regard to any biblical event would soon be reconciled as we develop a closer relationship with God?

Im not insinuating that one should simply follow blindly, but why close yourself off to the possibility altogether?

I personally dont think that disbelief in the creation story jeopardises a person salvation, but I do think there needs to be a little more faith in what God is capable of. who are we to question him, were we there?

It just seems silly.

Sure, God could have created everything 6,000 years ago, just like God could have created everything last Thursday. No one's saying He can't do those things.

 

[Madad21]

Sure, God could have created everything 6,000 years ago, just like God could have created everything last Thursday. No one's saying He can't do those things.

doesn't answer my question

if you say No one's saying He can't do those things.

then why all the doubt, why reject it?

 

[KingJ]

If they're actual literal years, then the different genealogies contradict each other.

Did you even bother with the link?

 

[snr5557]

doesn't answer my question

if you say No one's saying He can't do those things.

then why all the doubt, why reject it?

Well when we find evidence that says otherwise then we must reject the literal translation of that particular scripture. Why would God have all of these things here to trick us? I don't think that He would have all of this evidence laying around for us to find to try and turn us away from Him, because I believe that He wants us close to Him.

 

[Madad21]

Well when we find evidence that says otherwise then we must reject the literal translation of that particular scripture. Why would God have all of these things here to trick us? I don't think that He would have all of this evidence laying around for us to find to try and turn us away from Him, because I believe that He wants us close to Him.

Your argument is "Well when we find evidence that says otherwise then we must reject the literal translation of that particular scripture".

Okay do we have evidence that proves all the supernatural occurrences and miracles mentioned in the Word are impossible.
The answer is yes. There is literally a mountain of evidence against all of these things barring the possibility of natural disasters.
On top of that are the 332 listed miracles Jesus performed himself and speaking of Jesus, evidence also proves that a man can not be raised from the dead, so there goes the resurrection.

So in light of this my original question still remains
"Why is the creation story so hard to believe?" or "why is the creation story itself so hard to believe?

 

[Quantrill]

But people also wrote the Bible. So if people are so unreliable, why do we believe what they wrote about God?


If they're actual literal years, then the different genealogies contradict each other.


Sure, God could have created everything 6,000 years ago, just like God could have created everything last Thursday. No one's saying He can't do those things.

God wrote the Bible. And thus the people He used were not unreliable in the transmission of what was written.

Well, if God can do those things, and Scripture says He did do those things, then those things were done.

Quantrill

Well when we find evidence that says otherwise then we must reject the literal translation of that particular scripture. Why would God have all of these things here to trick us? I don't think that He would have all of this evidence laying around for us to find to try and turn us away from Him, because I believe that He wants us close to Him.

Why do you believe God wants you close to Him? Whats the basis of your believe? You?

Quantrill

 

[snr5557]

Your argument is "Well when we find evidence that says otherwise then we must reject the literal translation of that particular scripture".

Okay do we have evidence that proves all the supernatural occurrences and miracles mentioned in the Word are impossible.
The answer is yes. There is literally a mountain of evidence against all of these things barring the possibility of natural disasters.
On top of that are the 332 listed miracles Jesus performed himself and speaking of Jesus, evidence also proves that a man can not be raised from the dead, so there goes the resurrection.

Here's the thing Madad21, what we're talking about is Genesis. When we find direct evidence of something that we can either test or observe, if we purposefully ignore what we find what are we saying about our faith? That if we find something here, that it means our faith is not right? If we purposefully ignore what is shown, then we are saying that yes, our faith it too weak to even look at the world He has given us. Now if you could answer my questions:

Why would He leave so much evidence behind to confuse us? Why would He purposefully leave things on Earth to try to make people turn away from Him?

Jesus was the Son of God, so He was capable of doing great things outside of science. But when we see things in science that we can observe or test, it is within science.

Why is learning about how the world works so threatening to your faith? It only makes mine stronger, which is why I feel confused when others want me to ignore what makes my faith stronger.

God wrote the Bible.

God did not hand write the Bible, give it to people and say, "Here, go make some copies." I think someone would have mentioned God coming to the Earth with paper in His hand, asking them to copy what He had written. If you actually have a Bible verse that says that tell me.

And thus the people He used were not unreliable in the transmission of what was written.

You are putting too much faith in humanity again.


Why do you believe God wants you close to Him? Whats the basis of your believe? You?

We have already been over this, if you cannot even come up with new questions why do I have to keep answering the same ones over and over from you? From now on if you ask a question like this I'll just ignore it, but respond to other things in the post okay? Okay.

 

[IBeMe]

snr5557 : Here's the thing Madad21, what we're talking about is Genesis. When we find direct evidence of something that we can either test or observe, if we purposefully ignore what we find what are we saying about our faith? That if we find something here, that it means our faith is not right? If we purposefully ignore what is shown, then we are saying that yes, our faith it too weak to even look at the world He has given us. Now if you could answer my questions:

There's a vague "Theory of Evolution" undefined belief system that devoted followers are emotionally attached to; faithfully accepting as unquestionable scientific fact without even understanding what it really is.

In the real world of science, there's zero workable theories of how Life could exist without God creating it.

Not only, the real working evolutionary scientist don't have a clue of where to look, or what they're looking for.

There used to be tons, considered infallible, of theories of how Life began.

As research moved forward, all these theories turned out to be real stupid ignorant goofy assumptions.

You talk about "Theory of Evolution"; do you even know what it is?

Are you just a blind faith believer because they wear white cloaks and you were trained as a child that if you question the white cloaks; you'll be ridiculed?

Are you an independent thinker, or just a blind faith follower afraid to question the central power figures?

.

 

[River Jordan]

doesn't answer my question

if you say No one's saying He can't do those things.

then why all the doubt, why reject it?

Reject what?

Did you even bother with the link?

First, it didn't work (the page just comes up blank), and second I'm not really too curious what some place titled "border of insanity" has to say.

God wrote the Bible. And thus the people He used were not unreliable in the transmission of what was written.

I know that's what you believe, but I don't. I don't believe God was deceptively using people as robots, like "Oh, you thought Moses wrote that? Hah, hah, hah! That was really me!!!"

Well, if God can do those things, and Scripture says He did do those things, then those things were done.

What "things" are you talking about?

Why do you believe God wants you close to Him? Whats the basis of your believe? You?

Why do you?

 

[Madad21]

Thanks for cluing me in

Here's the thing Madad21, what we're talking about is Genesis.

Thanks for cluing me in





I did answer your question, you just either did not read my answer or you didnt like it.
What I said relates directly to the topic
So I will say it again "Evidence proves that all the supernatural events that happened in the Bible including miracles cant have happened"
This includes the creation account, the point I was making was obvious.


Snr5557 Have you ever seen anyone die, go in to the grave and sometime later come back to life, can science prove that it is impossible for this to happen?.. of course
Then why do you still believe it if science has proved with evidence it cant happen.

Why would He leave so much evidence behind to confuse us?
God can make a seed or he can make a 2000 year old tree, he can do both at the same time.
He formed a full grown man from the dust of the ground and breathed his life in to him, and then a short time later he made a full grown woman.
There is no reason to believe that dinosaurs and fossils prove creation wrong or even things like carbon dating.
These things need to be reconciled recognising that God is the author of life, to say that we evolved rules God out.
And by that statement I mean this Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, If evolution is right then this is a lie.

Peace

Reject what?

Whats the topic of the thread?
Is it ok if I have my say commenting on Arnies thread or do I need your permission first?

 

[River Jordan]

If evolution is right then this is a lie

A lot of Christians disagree.

Is it ok if I have my say commenting on Arnies thread or do I need your permission first?

????????? Um.....please proceed. :huh:

 

[aspen]

I belong on that list you provided, River

 

[Madad21]

A lot of Christians disagree.

Then it saddens me to say, those Christians need to exercise some real faith.

What troubles me is that you guys will spend all this time digging around for this evidence backing a man made theory and even take the time to post it up as your personal belief on a Christian forum where you know the majority of members will back the Genesis account, Just to spend your efforts making a stand for a theory you dont even know is true except for the evidence you saw on the net or in a book written by a scientist.

I want to appeal to your Spirits.

As Christians we have faith in the Word that God spoke, every word in it is spoken by God. .

Everything we see had a beginning made by a Being that had no beginning, and so did our plan for redemption. What is written about in Genesis echoes throughout the entire bible and it is the thread that holds our salvation in place, as the creation account is the beginning to the means, and the arrival of our Savior forever blessed.

God spoke all of creation into existence through his Word, and those who believe this will also believe in his Word.

Not as blind fools but as people devoted to their God in search of higher things and deeper understanding which when put in to practice yields the fruit of the Spirit and oneness with God the Father and his authority as our creator.

Man made theories constantly change none of them are grounded because they are without understanding and so they will continue to be jostled too and fro before man finally comes to realize that he comes after his creator and not before.

For a Christian to spend ones time searching for evidence against what Gods says he spoke into existence in the order it happened is time wasted on cultivating two minds, one of which is God's enemy and sparks into flame the flicker of doubt.

Isaiah 40:6-8
The Word of God Stands Forever

[SIZE=.75em]6 [/SIZE]A voice says, “Cry!”
And I said,[SIZE=.65em][a][/SIZE] “What shall I cry?”
[SIZE=.65em](A)[/SIZE]All flesh is grass,
and all its beauty[SIZE=.65em][b][/SIZE] is like the flower of the field.
[SIZE=.75em]7 [/SIZE]The grass withers, the flower fades
when the breath of the Lord blows on it;
surely the people are grass.
[SIZE=.75em]8 [/SIZE][SIZE=.65em](B)[/SIZE]The grass withers, the flower fades,
but the word of our God will stand forever.



With the same inquiring we need to bring our thoughts in line with Gods purpose, seek for answers in the Spirit of faith, not to disprove what was spoken but to reaffirm that which is written on our hearts and has been since the beginning of time.
There will be things no man will know for sure until the day he dies, so why not spend the time in ore of Gods beautiful creation instead of trying to break it in to tiny little human sized chunks. Gods wisdom goes beyond our understanding.
If creation did not happen this way then Genesis would read differently.

Exercise faith in the whole counsel of God for your own sakes and move on to higher things and a deeper connection. or you run the risk of turning away as many will do before the end.

The only thing true in this world is the way of death or the way of God which is life through his Word.

Peace and love to you
Mike

 

[River Jordan]

Then it saddens me to say, those Christians need to exercise some real faith.

I would counter that "real faith" is that which is secure and strong enough to be compatible with reality.

What troubles me is that you guys will spend all this time digging around for this evidence backing a man made theory and even take the time to post it up as your personal belief on a Christian forum where you know the majority of members will back the Genesis account,

All science is "man made", yet you don't seem to have any trouble with it when it suits you, such as using your computer and the internet. Suddenly "man made" isn't quite the pejorative, is it?

Also, most Christians world-wide agree with me on this. This anti-science brand of Christianity is largely confined to Protestant fundamentalism in the US.

Just to spend your efforts making a stand for a theory you dont even know is true except for the evidence you saw on the net or in a book written by a scientist.

How do you know what I have or haven't seen, done, or studied on my own?

As Christians we have faith in the Word that God spoke, every word in it is spoken by God.

What do you mean "every word in it is spoken by God"? Do you mean that you believe God used the authors of the Bible as mindless robots?

Everything we see had a beginning made by a Being that had no beginning, and so did our plan for redemption.

Yep.

What is written about in Genesis echoes throughout the entire bible and it is the thread that holds our salvation in place, as the creation account is the beginning to the means, and the arrival of our Savior forever blessed.

God spoke all of creation into existence through his Word, and those who believe this will also believe in his Word.

Genesis also says God "let the earth bring forth" the various forms of life. That sounds an awful lot like evolution to me.

Man made theories constantly change none of them are grounded because they are without understanding and so they will continue to be jostled too and fro before man finally comes to realize that he comes after his creator and not before.

So you think it's likely that tomorrow scientists will say the earth is really flat and is orbited by the sun, matter is made up of jelly, diseases are caused by bad juju, and 2+2=5? IOW, if some things in science change as new information is gained, then we can't trust any of it?

For a Christian to spend ones time searching for evidence against what Gods says he spoke into existence in the order it happened is time wasted on cultivating two minds, one of which is God's enemy and sparks into flame the flicker of doubt.

So Christians should not be doing science or paying attention to it? We should just pretend it doesn't exist?

If creation did not happen this way then Genesis would read differently.

Genesis says God let the earth bring forth life.

Exercise faith in the whole counsel of God for your own sakes and move on to higher things and a deeper connection. or you run the risk of turning away as many will do before the end.

So I just just stop studying biology, give back my degrees, forget everything I've learned, seen, and studied, and......do what? Become a Nun?

 

[Madad21]

I would counter that "real faith" is that which is secure and strong enough to be compatible with reality.


All science is "man made", yet you don't seem to have any trouble with it when it suits you, such as using your computer and the internet. Suddenly "man made" isn't quite the pejorative, is it?

Also, most Christians world-wide agree with me on this. This anti-science brand of Christianity is largely confined to Protestant fundamentalism in the US.

How do you know what I have or haven't seen, done, or studied on my own?


What do you mean "every word in it is spoken by God"? Do you mean that you believe God used the authors of the Bible as mindless robots?


Yep.

Genesis also says God "let the earth bring forth" the various forms of life. That sounds an awful lot like evolution to me.

So you think it's likely that tomorrow scientists will say the earth is really flat and is orbited by the sun, matter is made up of jelly, diseases are caused by bad juju, and 2+2=5? IOW, if some things in science change as new information is gained, then we can't trust any of it?


So Christians should not be doing science or paying attention to it? We should just pretend it doesn't exist?


Genesis says God let the earth bring forth life.

So I just just stop studying biology, give back my degrees, forget everything I've learned, seen, and studied, and......do what? Become a Nun?

Your very combative, don't be upset by my words, I wasn't just speaking to you.
I hope you find your answers, sincerely.

All glory to God and grace and peace to you.

Mike

 

[River Jordan]

Your very combative, don't be upset by my words, I wasn't just speaking to you.

I wasn't trying to be combative, honestly. And I figured since you were responding to my post, you were responding to me.

I hope you find your answers, sincerely.

All glory to God and grace and peace to you.

Thanks! You too!

 

[Madad21]

I wasn't trying to be combative, honestly. And I figured since you were responding to my post, you were responding to me.

Thanks! You too!

it was my mistake. God bless

 

[aspen]

you say 'nun' like it is a bad thing......
every commentary on the Bible is a theory - scientists are observing and thinking about the material world just like theologians observe and think about scripture. really, all theology is a theory