Apostasy:

[musterion]

Are you asking if leaving the Catholic Church would save me?

No. The question is, if I can be saved totally apart from the RCC - as you and Vale insist - then why can't you? I asked him this question but he never answered.
And please don't forget to answer the question of how people who aren't saved yet can receive the Holy Spirit, thanks!

 

[Selene]

No. The question is, if I can be saved totally apart from the RCC - as you and Vale insist - then why can't you? I asked him this question but he never answered.

The only ones who can truly say that they are saved are those who are already in Heaven. Catholics know that we have been saved by Jesus Christ through His death and resurrection, and we are in the process of being saved. We have the hope of being saved while we work out our salvation with fear and trembling like St. Paul (See Philippians 2:12). In other words, being saved is not a one time event, but rather an ongoing process.

 

[musterion]

The only ones who can truly say that they are saved are those who are already in Heaven.

You are mistaken on that but we'll let it go for now since it wasn't my question.

We have the hope of being saved while we work out our salvation with fear and trembling like St. Paul (See Philippians 2:12). In other words, being saved is not a one time event, but rather an ongoing process.

And that's where the works come in?

So, again, why can't you be saved via the same means as a non-Catholic? What makes them, or their salvation, different from you?

 

[Selene]

The only ones who can truly say that they are saved are those who are already in Heaven.

You are mistaken on that but we'll let it go for now since it wasn't my question.

We have the hope of being saved while we work out our salvation with fear and trembling like St. Paul (See Philippians 2:12). In other words, being saved is not a one time event, but rather an ongoing process.

And that's where the works come in?

So, again, why can't you be saved via the same means as a non-Catholic? What makes them, or their salvation, different from you?

Because as I said, being saved is an ongoing process. When a person says that they are already saved.....they are actually committing a sin. It is the sin of presumption. The sin of presumption is relying on God's mercy and power without doing anything to deserve it or without repenting from his/her sins.

One wonders how sincere a person’s love for God is when he is so readily willing to sin simply because God is forgiving. God cannot be fooled. He reads hearts and knows our sincerity. To decide to sin is to offend God. To decide to sin because one knows that he can be forgiven is to sin twice. It is to use God, reducing him to a utility at the service of our whim. To say that one is already saved is putting himself/herself as God being the judge of his own salvation without the need of repentance.

We have been saved by Christ, but we are still in the process of being saved because there is something that needs to be done on our part. Christ already did His part on the cross by redeeming us so that we have access to Heaven. Our part is to persevere in our faith and to continue to run the race so that we can reach our goal as St. Paul says (See 1 Corinthians 9:24-27).

 

[musterion]

Because as I said, being saved is an ongoing process. When a person says that they are saved.....they are actually committing a sin. It is the sin of presumption. The sin of presumption is relying on God's mercy and power without doing anything to deserve it or without repenting from his/her sins.

Interesting. What of the many Bible verses that promise believers, in the context of salvation, that they can know here and now that they are forever safe in Christ? How can it be sin to stand in faith upon such promises made by God Himself?

One wonders how sincere a person’s love for God is when he is so readily willing to sin simply because God is forgiving.

Who are you speaking of?

God cannot be fooled. He reads hearts and knows our sincerity. To decide to sin is to offend God. To decide to sin because one knows that he can be forgiven is to sin twice. It is to use God, reducing him to a utility at the service of our whim.

Still confused...who are you speaking of?

To say that one is already saved is already putting himself/herself as God being the judge of his own salvation without the need of repentance.

Not if God has pronounced him not only forgiven of all sin in Christ but has given him Christ's righteousness as well. That in no way excuses sin and I know no one who would say it does, but that is a biblical factor you are either unaware of or are choosing to ignore. I will be happy to point out such verses for you, in context. Would you respond to them if I do?

So once again, Selene, since I suspect you're not wanting to answer the question:

How is the salvation of a non-Catholic different from that of a Catholic?

To decide to sin is to offend God. To decide to sin because one knows that he can be forgiven is to sin twice. It is to use God, reducing him to a utility at the service of our whim.

It just now occurs to me to ask...if Catholics never decide to sin, why do priests do confession and why is there pennance and purgatory?

 

[Selene]

So once again, Selene, since I suspect you're not wanting to answer the question:

How is the salvation of a non-Catholic different from that of a Catholic?

As Vale and I have been saying....as long as one sincerely seeks God (regardless of whether they are Catholic or not), it is possible for them to receive salvation. The key statement here is "sincerely seeks God." A person who sincerely seeks God can find salvation because salvation comes only from God. A person does not have to be Catholic to sincerely seek God. Any Protestant Christian who sincerely seeks God can also find salvation.

 

[musterion]

As Vale and I have been saying....as long as one sincerely seeks God (regardless of whether they are Catholic or not), it is possible for them to receive salvation. The key statement here is "sincerely seeks God." A person who sincerely seeks God can find salvation because salvation comes only from God. A person does not have to be Catholic to sincerely seek God.

I agree 100% that salvation comes only from God, amen to that. But you said the key is to "sincerely seek God." Do you not mean to say, "to sincerely seek CHRIST"? I'm not nitpicking; you undestand how vitally important that distinction is so we must be crystal clear on it.

 

[Selene]

You said, "Seek God." Do you not mean to say, "Seek CHRIST"? I'm not nitpicking; you undestand how vitally important that distinction is so we must be crystal clear on it.

Are you saying that Christ is NOT God?

 

[musterion]

Are you saying that Christ is NOT God?

Of course not. But while we agree salvation is of God alone, the Bible is abundantly clear that Christ alone is the only mediator between God and man. Christ alone is the door, the way, etc. to the Father and no other means will avail.

So given that fact, does not our hypothetical sincerely searching non-Catholic need to sincerely seek Christ if he/she has any hope of salvation? That is what the Bible teaches, do you agree with it?

 

[Selene]

Of course not. But while we agree salvation is of God alone, the Bible is abundantly clear that Christ alone is the only mediator between God and man. Christ alone is the door, the way, etc. to the Father and no other means will avail.

So given that fact, does not our hypothetical sincerely searching non-Catholic need to sincerely seek Christ if he/she has any hope of salvation? That is what the Bible teaches, do you agree with it?

Catholics believe that Jesus Christ is God. Christ is a Savior, and so is God the Father. So, when I say that a Protestant Christian who sincerely seeks God can also have salvation......that is not an error. After all, both Catholics and mainstream Protestants believe that Jesus is God. Do you know of any Christian who seeks a different God other than the Christian God?? The Christian God is the Triune God........Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.......three persons in one God.

 

[musterion]

Catholics believe that Jesus Christ is God. Christ is a Savior, but so is God the Father. So, when I say that a Protestant Christian who sincerely seeks God can also have salvation......that is not an error. After all, both Catholics and mainstream Protestants believe that Jesus is God. Do you know of any Christian who seeks a different God other than the Christian God??

So are you saying a sincere seeker can be saved without knowingly and deliberately coming to Christ, or maybe could even ignore Him, if they sincerely come to God to have their sins forgiven?

As to your question, YES, there are professing Christians who not only seek but worship and preach a demonstrably different God than the God of the Bible. Oh yeah...believe it.

 

[Selene]

So are you saying a sincere seeker can be saved without knowingly and deliberately coming to Christ, or maybe could even ignore Him if they sincerely come to God?

As to your question, YES, there are professing Christians who not only seek but worship and preach a demonstrably different God than the God of the Bible. Oh yeah...believe it.

Christ is not separated from God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. He is one with them. Anyone who does not believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God is not a Christian. In other words, a person who only worships Jesus, but not the Father or the Holy Spirit is not a Christian. A Christian worships all three persons because there are three persons in one God.

 

[musterion]

So because you believe in the Trinity (as do I), merely believing in the triune God who forgives sin is enough to save a sincere seeker? They need not come to Christ - expressly to Him alone - to have their sins forgiven?

 

[Selene]

So because you believe in the Trinity (as do I), merely believing in the triune God who forgives sin is enough to save a sincere seeker? They need not come to Christ - expressly to Him alone - to have their sins forgiven?

Of course, Catholics believe in the Holy Trinity. In the Nicene Creed and Apostles Creed, we say all three....Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Christ is part of the Holy Trinity. A person who only believes in God the Father, but does not believe that Jesus is God is also not a Christian. The Jews are an example. Jews believe in only God the Father, but not in Jesus Christ. The Jews are not Christians and do not know the true nature of God as three divine persons in one God.

 

[musterion]

Christ is not separated from God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. He is one with them. Anyone who does not believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God is not a Christian. In other words, a person who only worships Jesus, but not the Father or the Holy Spirit is not a Christian. A Christian worships all three persons because there are three persons in one God.

There are people I bet you've met or have heard of, who you'd probably accept as fully Christian, who sincerely love and praise God, believe in Christ's payment for their sins and are FULL of good works, but who flatly deny the Trinity as of Satan. I'd be curious to see how you'd classify them.

 

[Selene]

There are people I bet you've met or have heard of, who you'd probably accept as fully Christian, who sincerely love and praise God, believe in Christ's payment for their sins and are FULL of good works, but who flatly deny the Trinity as of Satan. I'd be curious to see how you'd classify them.

Those who do not believe in the Holy Trinity are classified as non-Christians. These non-Christians include Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, and other pagans. The Roman Catholic Church does not classify these non-Christians as those belonging to Satan, but simply ignorant.....not knowing the true nature of the one true God. It is the duty of Christians to spread the Gospel to non-Christians and to pray for them. It is not our place to judge them.

 

[musterion]

The only ones who can truly say that they are saved are those who are already in Heaven. Catholics know that we have been saved by Jesus Christ through His death and resurrection, and we are in the process of being saved. We have the hope of being saved while we work out our salvation with fear and trembling like St. Paul (See Philippians 2:12). In other words, being saved is not a one time event, but rather an ongoing process.

Those who do not believe in the Holy Trinity are classified as non-Christians. These non-Christians include Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, and other pagans. The Roman Catholic Church does not classify these non-Christians as those belonging to Satan, but simply ignorant.....not knowing the true nature of the one true God. It is the duty of Christians to spread the Gospel to non-Christians and to pray for them. It is not our place to judge them.

From what you know of me, do you consider me to be right with God?

 

[Selene]

From what you know of me, do you consider me to be right with God?

Actually, I don't know you at all. However, you are a Christian because you believe in the Holy Trinity. You are a child of God and part of the Body of Christ.

 

[musterion]

Actually, I don't know you at all. However, you are a Christian because you believe in the Holy Trinity. You are a child of God and part of the Body of Christ.

AHH, I finally got the direct answer on what I must do to be saved. My patience paid off. Thanks for your honesty. So long.

 

[Selene]

AHH, I finally got the direct answer on what I must do to be saved. My patience paid off. Thanks for your honesty. So long.

Don't misconstrue what I said. I stated that you are Christian only because of what you believe. Nowhere did I say that you are saved. God is the only one to judge who is saved and who is not. According to the Bible, not everyone who believes are saved.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

You are the only one who believes that ONLY Christians are saved.