Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,458
1,295
113
68
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
“Keep always in mind the rule of faith which I profess and by which I bear witness that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and then you will understand what is meant by it. Observe now that I say the Father is other [distinct], the Son is other, and the Spirit is other. This statement is wrongly understood by every uneducated or perversely disposed individual, as if it meant diversity and implied by that diversity a separation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” (ibid., 9).

“Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent persons, who are yet distinct one from another. These three are, one essence, not one person, as it is said, ‘I and my Father are one’ [John 10:30], in respect of unity of being not singularity of number” (ibid., 25).

Origen
“For we do not hold that which the heretics imagine: that some part of the being of God was converted into the Son, or that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existent substances, that is, from a being outside himself, so that there was a time when he [the Son] did not exist” (The Fundamental Doctrines 4:4:1 [A.D. 225]).

“For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds every sense in which not only temporal but even eternal may be understood. It is all other things, indeed, which are outside the Trinity, which are to be measured by time and ages” (ibid.).
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,458
1,295
113
68
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hippolytus
“The Word alone of this God is from God himself, wherefore also the Word is God, being the being of God” (Refutation of All Heresies 10:29 [A.D. 228]).

Pope Dionysius
“Next, then, I may properly turn to those who divide and cut apart and destroy the most sacred proclamation of the Church of God, making of it [the Trinity], as it were, three powers, distinct substances, and three godheads. . . . [Some heretics] proclaim that there are in some way three gods, when they divide the sacred unity into three substances foreign to each other and completely separate” (Letter to Dionysius of Alexandria 1 [A.D. 262]).

“Therefore, the divine Trinity must be gathered up and brought together in one, a summit, as it were, I mean the omnipotent God of the universe. . . . It is blasphemy, then, and not a common one but the worst, to say that the Son is in any way a handiwork [creature]. . . . But if the Son came into being [was created], there was a time when these attributes did not exist; and, consequently, there was a time when God was without them, which is utterly absurd” (ibid., 1–2).

“Neither, then, may we divide into three godheads the wonderful and divine unity. . . . Rather, we must believe in God, the Father Almighty; and in Christ Jesus, his Son; and in the Holy Spirit; and that the Word is united to the God of the universe. ‘For,’ he says, ‘The Father and I are one,’ and ‘I am in the Father, and the Father in me’” (ibid., 3).
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,458
1,295
113
68
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gregory the Wonderworker
“There is one God. . . . There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged. Wherefore there is nothing either created or in servitude in the Trinity; nor anything superinduced, as if at some former period it was non-existent, and at some later period it was introduced. And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever” (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]).
What the Early Church Believed: The Trinity

Clement of Rome, AD 95-96
By [Jesus] the Lord has willed that we should taste of immortal knowledge, "who, being the brightness of His majesty, is by so much greater than the angels, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they" [Heb. 1:3-4]. For it is thus written, "Who maketh His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire" [Ps. 104:4; Heb. 1:7]. But concerning His Son the Lord spoke thus: "Thou art my Son, to-day have I begotten Thee. Ask of Me, and I will give Thee the heathen for Thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for Thy possession" [Ps. 2:7-8; Heb. 1:5]. (1 Clement 36)
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,458
1,295
113
68
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ignatius of Antioch, AD 110
Our God, Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Spirit. (Letter to the Ephesians 18)

Do ye all come together in common, and individually, through grace, in one faith of God the Father, and of Jesus Christ His only-begotten Son, and the first-born of every creature" [Col. 1:15] but of the seed of David according to the flesh, being under the guidance of the Comforter. (Letter to the Ephesians 20)

Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that willeth all things which are according to the love of Jesus Christ our God. (greeting to the Letter to the Romans)

Ignatius … to the church of God the Most High Father and his beloved Son, Jesus Christ, … I glorify God, even Jesus Christ, who has given you such wisdom … (Letter to the Smyrneans intro-ch. 1)

Anonymous, Letter to Diognetus, AD 80 - 130
This is he who was from the beginning, who appeared as if new, and was found old, and yet who is ever born afresh in the hearts of the saints. This is he who, being from everlasting, is today called the Son. (Letter to Diognetus 11)
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,458
1,295
113
68
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Justin Martyr, c. AD 150
Jesus Christ is the only proper Son who has been begotten by God, being His Word and first-begotten, and power; and, becoming man according to His will, He taught us these things for the conversion and restoration of the human race. (First Apology 23)

And that God the Father of all would bring Christ to heaven after He had raised Him from the dead, and would keep Him there until He has subdued His enemies the devils, and until the number of those who are foreknown by Him as good and virtuous is complete, on whose account He has still delayed the consummation—hear what was said by the prophet David. These are his words: "The Lord said unto My Lord, Sit Thou at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool. The Lord shall send to Thee the rod of power out of Jerusalem; and rule Thou in the midst of Thine enemies. With Thee is the government in the day of Thy power, in the beauties of Thy saints: from the womb of morning have I begotten Thee" [Ps. 110:1-3, LXX]. (First Apology 45)

For they who are called devils attempt nothing else than to seduce men from God who made them, and from Christ His first-begotten. (First Apology 58)
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,458
1,295
113
68
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"No one knows the Father but the Son, nor the Son but the Father, and those to whom the Son will reveal him" [Matt. 21:27]. The Jews, accordingly, being are throughout of the opinion that it was the Father of the universe who spoke to Moses [in the burning bush], though the One who spoke to him was the Son of God. … They are justly charged, both by the Spirit of Prophecy and by Christ himself, with knowing neither the Father nor the Son. Those who affirm that the Son is the Father are proven neither to be acquainted with the Father nor to know that the Father has a Son. The Son, being the first-begotten Word of God, is God. Of old he appeared in the shape of and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and other prophets, but now in the time of your reign [i.e., during the Roman empire] … he became man by a virgin … for the salvation of those who believe in him. (First Apology 63).

There is then brought to the president of the brethren [I think this refers to whoever is presiding at a meeting, but no one knows for certain] bread and a cup of wine mixed with water. He takes them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at his hands. (First Apology 65)
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,458
1,295
113
68
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Leningrad Codex of the Hebrew Scriptures
Leningrad Codex of the Hebrew Scriptures
For all things with which we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through his Son Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit. (First Apology 67)

But to the Father of all, who is unbegotten, there is no name given. .. And His Son, who alone is properly called Son, the Word who also was with him and was begotten before the works, when at first He created and arranged all things by Him, is called Christ, in reference to His being anointed and Godís ordering all things through him. (Second Apology 6)

Our Saviour Jesus Christ … being the Word of God, inseparable from Him in power, having assumed [the form of] man, who had been made in the image and likeness of God, restored to us the knowledge of the religion of our ancient forefathers. (Hortatory Address to the Greeks 38)

Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts and Jacob in parable by the Holy Spirit. (Dialogue with Trypho 36)

[Trypho the Jew speaking to Justin about Christians in general] Trypho said, " … You utter many blasphemies. You're attempting to persuade us that this crucified man was with Moses and Aaron, spoke to them in the pillar of the cloud, became crucified, ascended up to heaven, will come again to earth, and ought to be worshiped!"
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,458
1,295
113
68
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Then I answered, "I know that, as the word of God says, this great wisdom of God, the Maker of all things, and the Almighty, is hidden from you." (Dialogue with Trypho 38)

In the fourty-fourth Psalm [LXX, in our Masoretic text, it's the 45th], these words are … referred to Christ: "My heart has brought forth a good Word" [v. 1, considered by the early Christians to be a reference to the birth of the Son/Word in eternity past]. (Dialogue with Trypho 38)


God begat before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father’s will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will; just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word; yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word [which remains] in us, when we give it out: and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter, will bear evidence to me, when He speaks by Solomon the following: "If I shall declare to you what happens daily, I shall call to mind events from everlasting, and review them. The Lord made me the beginning of His ways for His works. From everlasting He established me in the beginning, before He had made the earth, and before He had made the deeps, before the springs of the waters had issued forth, before the mountains had been established ... (Dialogue with Trypho 61)
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,458
1,295
113
68
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Since we find it recorded in the memoirs of the apostles that he is the Son of God, and since we call him the Son, we have understood that he proceeded before all creatures from the Father by his power and his will ... and that he became man by the virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same way in which it derived its origin. (Dialogue with Trypho 100)

For I have already proved that he was the only-begotten of the Father in everything, being begotten, in a unique way, Logos and Power by him, and afterwards become man through the virgin, as we have learned from the memoirs [of the apostles]. (Dialogue with Trypho 105)

Hermas, AD 100 - 160
"First of all, sir," I said, "Explain to me what is the meaning of the rock and the gate?"
"This rock," he answered, "and this gate are the Son of God."
"How, sir?" I said. "The rock is old, and the gate is new."
"Listen," he said, "and understand, O ignorant man. The Son of God is older than all his creatures, so that he was a fellow counselor with the Father in his work of creation. For this reason he is old."
"And why is the gate new, sir?" I said.
"Because," he answered, "he became manifest in the last days of the dispensation. For this reason the gate was made new, that they who are to be saved by it might enter into the kingdom of God." (Shepherd of Hermas III:9:12)
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,458
1,295
113
68
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Tatian, c. AD 165
God was in the beginning, but the beginning, we have been taught, is the power of the Logos. For the Lord of the universe … since no creature was yet in existence, was alone. But, since he is all power, himself the necessary ground of things visible and invisible, with him were all things. With him, by Logos-power, the Logos Himself … subsists. By His simple will the Logos springs forth; and the Logos … becomes the first-begotten work of the Father.

Him we know to be the beginning of the world. But He came into being by participation, not by abscission [cutting off]. For what is cut off is separated from the original substance, but that which comes by participation … does not render him deficient from whom it is taken.

For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Logos, coming forth from the Logos-power of the Father, has not divested [the Father] of the Logos-power.

I myself, for instance, talk, and you hear. Yet I certainly do not become destitute of speech by the transmission of speech, but by the utterance of my voice I endeavour to reduce to order the unarranged matter in your minds. And as the Logos, begotten in the beginning, begat in turn our world, having first created for himself the necessary matter, so also I, in imitation of the Logos, being born again, and having become possessed of the truth, am trying to reduce to order the confused matter which is kindred with myself. (Address to the Greeks 5)
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,458
1,295
113
68
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Theophilus, AD 168
You will say ... to me: "You said that God cannot to be contained in one place; how do you now say that he walked in Paradise?"

Hear what I say: The God and Father of all truly cannot be contained, and is not found, in a place ... but his Word, through whom he made all things, being his power and his wisdom, assuming the person of the Father and Lord of all, went to the garden in the person of God and conversed with Adam.

For the divine writing itself teaches us that Adam said that he had heard the voice. What else is this voice but the Word of God, who is also his Son? [He is] not [a son] in the way the poets and writers of myths speak of sons of gods begotten from intercourse, but as truth expounds, the Word, who always exists, residing within the heart of God. For before anything came into being [God] had him as a counselor, being his own mind and thought.
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,458
1,295
113
68
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But when God wished to make all that he determined, he begot this Word, uttered, the firstborn of all creation, not himself being emptied of the Word [or Reason], but having begotten Reason, and always conversing with his Reason.

And this is what the holy writings teach us, as well as all the Spirit-bearing men, one of whom, John, says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God" [Jn. 1:1], showing that at first God was alone, and the Word in him. Then he says, "The Word was God; all things came into existence through him, and apart from him not one thing came into existence."

The Word, then, being God, and being naturally produced from God, then whenever the Father of the universe wills, he sends him anywhere, and he is both heard and seen, being sent by Him, and is found in a place. (To Autolycus II:22)

Hermas, c. AD 170
I wish to explain to you what the Holy Spirit that spoke with you in the form of the Church showed you, for that Spirit is the Son of God. (Shepherd of Hermas. Similitude 9th. Ch. 1.)

Athenagoras, c. AD 177
We acknowledge ... a Son of God. Don't let anyone think it ridiculous that God should have a Son. ... The Son of God is the Logos of the Father ... He is the first product of the Father, not as though he was being brought into existence, for from the beginning God, who is the eternal Mind, had the Logos in himself. (A Plea for the Christians 10)

What then? Because the multitude, who cannot distinguish between matter and God, or see how great is the interval which lies between them, pray to idols made of matter, are we therefore, who do distinguish and separate the uncreated and the created, that which is and that which is not, that which is apprehended by the understanding and that which is perceived by the senses, and who give the fitting name to each of them,—are we to come and worship images? If, indeed, matter and God are the same, two names for one thing, then certainly, in not regarding stocks and stones, gold and silver, as gods, we are guilty of impiety. But if they are at the greatest possible remove from one another—as far asunder as the artist and the materials of his art—why are we called to account? (A Plea for the Christians 15)

We acknowledge a God, and a Son, his Logos, and a Holy Spirit, united in essence—the Father, the Son, the Spirit—because the Son is the Intelligence, Reason, and Wisdom of the Father, and the Spirit an effluence, as light from fire. (A Plea for the Christians 24)
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,458
1,295
113
68
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Irenaeus, AD 183 - 186
Learn then, foolish men [i.e., the gnostics], that Jesus who suffered for us, and who dwelt among us, is himself the Word of God. … He, the only-begotten Son of the only God, who, according to the good pleasure of the Father, became flesh for the sake of men. (Against Heresies I:9:3)

[The Gospel] according to John relates [Jesus Christ's] original, effectual, and glorious generation from the Father, thus declaring, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" [John 1:1]. (Against Heresies III:11:8)

How is Christ the end of the Law if he is not also the final cause of it? For he who has brought in the end himself also made the beginning. And it is he who says to Moses, "I have surely seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt, and I have come down to deliver them" [Ex. 3:7-8]. It was customary from the beginning for the Word of God to ascend and descend for the purpose of saving those who were in affliction. (Against Heresies IV:12:4)

Clement of Alexandria, c. AD 190
Though despised as to appearance, [Jesus] was in reality adored, the expiator of sin, the Savior, the clement, the Divine Word; he that is truly most apparently Deity. He is made equal to the Lord of the universe because he was his Son, and the Word was in God. (Exhortation to the Heathen 10)

The Lord is the hierophant [interpreter of sacred mysteries] and seals while illuminating him who is initiated. He presents to the Father him who believes to be kept safe for ever. Such are the reveries of my mysteries. If it is your wish, be also initiated, and you shall join the choir along with angels around the unbegotten and indestructible and the only true God, the Word of God, raising the hymn with us. This Jesus, who is eternal, the one great High Priest of the one God, and of His Father, prays for and exhorts men. (Exhortation to the Heathen 12)

I call on the whole race of men, whose Creator I am, by the will of the Father. Come to Me, that you may be put in your due rank under the one God and the one Word of God … for to you of all mortals I grant the enjoyment of immortality. For I want to … confer on you both the Word and the knowledge of God, my complete self. This am I, this God wills … this [is] the harmony of the Father; this is the Son, this is Christ, this the Word of God, the arm of the Lord, the power of the universe, the will of the Father … I desire to restore you according to the original model, that you may become also like me. (Exhortation to the Heathen 12)
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,458
1,295
113
68
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It cannot be said that the Lord is not willing to save humanity because of ignorance, as though he does not know how each on is to be cared for. Ignorance does nat apply to the God who, before the foundation of the world, was the Counselor of the Father. For he was the Wisdom in which the Sovereign God delighted [Prov. 8:30]. The Son is the power of God. He is the Father's most ancient Word before the production of all things and his Wisdom. He is then properly called the Teacher of the beings he formed. Nor does he ever abandon the care of mankind by being distracted by pleasure, not the One who assumed flesh—which by nature is susceptible to suffering—and trained it to such an extent that it could not suffer. (Miscellanies VII:2

We are therefore to love him equally with God. And he loves Christ Jesus who does his will and keeps his commandments. (Who Is the Rich Man Who Shall Be Saved 29)

Tertullian, c. AD 200
We ... believe that there is one only God—but under the following dispensation, or oikonomia [Tertullian quotes the Greek word for "order," "dispensation," or "arrangement" here], as it is called—that this one only God has also a Son, his Word, who proceeded from himself, by whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. ...

That this rule of faith has come down to us from the beginning of the Gospel ... will be apparent both from the lateness of date which marks all heresies and also from the absolutely novel character of our new-fangled Praxeas. (Against Praxeas 2)

But as for me, who derive the Son from no other source but from the substance of the Father ... how can I possibly be destroying the Monarchy from the faith [i.e., removing the singular rule of God as modalists accused trinitarians of doing], when I preserve it in the Son just as it was committed to him by the Father. (Against Praxeas 4, emphasis mine because of its importance to the Nicene Creed)

Before all things God was alone … He was alone because there was nothing external to him except himself. Yet even then he was not alone,for he had with him that which he possessed in himself, that is to say, his own Reason. [Which is how Tertullian translates the Greek "Logos"] (Against Praxeas 5)
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,458
1,295
113
68
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
God is rational, and Reason was first in him … This Reason was his own thought, which the Greeks call Logos, by which term we also designate Word [Tertullian is writing in Latin and used the word "Sermo"], and therefore it is now usual with our people, owing to the simple translation of [Logos] to say that the Word was in the beginning with God, even though it would be more suitable to regard Reason as the more ancient. God did not have Word from the beginning, but he had Reason even before the beginning. Word itself consists of Reason, which it thus proves to have been the first to exist as being its own substance. Not that this distinction is of any practical importance.

[Are you looking for a meaning to all that? The basic premise is that the Logos existed in the beginning with God, and Tertullian has some philosophical reasons for wanting to translate that as Reason rather than Word, even though Word is more common] (Against Praxeas 5)

Although God had not sent out his Word, he still had him within himself … as he silently planned and arranged within himself everything which he was afterwards to utter through his Word. (Against Praxeas 5)

Observe, then, that when you are silently conversing with yourself, this very process is carried on within you by your reason, which meets you with a word at every movement of your thought … Whatever you think, there is a word … You must speak it in your mind …

Thus, in a certain sense, the word is a second person within you, through which in thinking you utter speech … The word is itself a different thing from yourself. Now how much more fully is all this transacted in God, whose image and likeness you are? (Against Praxeas 5)
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,458
1,295
113
68
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This power and disposition of the Divine Intelligence is also set forth in the Scriptures under the name of Wisdom; for what can be better entitled to the name of Wisdom than the Reason or the Word of God?† Listen therefore to Wisdom herself, constituted in the character of a Second Person: "At the first the Lord created me as the beginning of his ways … " that is to say, he created and generated me in his own intelligence. Then, again, observe the distinction between them implied in the companionship of Wisdom with the Lord [referencing the Father]. "When he prepared the heaven," says Wisdom, "I was present with him." (Against Praxeas 6)

Now, as soon as it pleased God to put forth into their respective substances and forms the things which he had planned and ordered within himself, in conjunction with his Wisdomís Reason and Word, he first put forth the Word himself … in order that all things might be made through him through whom they had been planned and disposed. (Against Praxeas 6)

At that time the Word assumes his own form and glorious garb, his own sound and vocal utterance, when God says, "Let there be light." This is the perfect nativity of the Word, when he proceeds forth from God … "The Lord created me as the beginning of His ways;" then afterward begotten, to carry all into effect: "When he prepared the heaven, I was present with him." In this way he makes him equal to him, for by proceeding from himself he became his first-begotten Son … and His only-begotten also, because alone begotten of God, in a way peculiar to himself, from the womb of his own heart, just as the Father himself testifies: "My heart," says he, "has emitted my most excellent Word." (Against Praxeas 7)

He became the Son of God and was begotten when he proceeded forth from him. … But you [Praxeas, a heretic who held to modalism ("Jesus only")] will not allow him to be really a substantive being, by having a substance of his own in such a way that he may be regarded as an objective thing and a person, and so be able to make two, the Father and the Son, God and the Word.

For you will say, what is a word but a voice and sound of the mouth … but for the rest a sort of void, empty, and incorporeal thing. I, on the contrary, contend that nothing empty and void could have come forth from God … for all things which were made through him, he made. … How could he who is empty have made things which are solid, and he who is void have made things which are full, and he who is incorporeal have made things which have body? … Is that Word of God, then, a void and empty thing, which is called the Son, who is himself designated God? "The Word was with God, and the Word was God" [Jn. 1:1] … This for certain is he "who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" [Php. 2:6].
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,458
1,295
113
68
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In what form of God? Of course he means in some form, not in none. For who will deny that God is a body even though "God is Spirit" [Jn. 4:24] For Spirit has a bodily substance of its own kind, in its own form. … Whatever, therefore, was the substance of the Word that I designate a Person, I claim for it the name of Son; and while I recognize the Son, I assert his distinction as second to the Father. (Against Praxeas 7)

[Written against modalism or "Jesus only"] If you want me to believe him to be both the Father and the Son, show me some other passage where it is declared, "The Lord said to himself, ‘I am my own Son, today have I begotten myself.’" … On your side, however, you must make Him out to be a liar, an impostor, and a tamperer with his word, if, when he was himself a Son to himself, he assigned the part of his Son to be played by another. All the Scriptures attest the clear existence of—and distinction [of persons] in—the Trinity, and indeed furnish us with our Rule of faith. He who speaks, and he of whom he speaks and to whom he speaks, cannot possibly seem to be one and the same. (Against Praxeas 11)

I shall follow the apostle [Paul], so that if the Father and the Son are alike to be invoked, I shall call the Father "God" and invoke Jesus Christ as "Lord."

But when Christ alone [is invoked], I shall be able to call him "God." As the same apostle says, "Of whom is Christ, who is over all, God blessed forever" [Rom. 9:5].

For I should give the name of "sun" even to a sunbeam, considered by itself. But if I were mentioning the sun from which the ray emanates, I would certainly withdraw the name of sun from the mere beam. For although I do not make two suns, still I shall reckon both the sun and its ray to be as much two things—and two forms of one undivided substance—as God and his Word, as the Father and the Son. (Against Praxeas 13)

"No one has seen God at any time" [1 Jn. 4:12]. What God does he mean? The Word? But he [the Holy Spirit, through the Scriptures] has already said, "Him we have seen and heard, and our hands have handled, the Word of Life" [1 Jn. 1:1-2]. Well, what God does he mean? It is of course the Father, with whom was the Word, the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, and has revealed him himself. ... Moreover, he expressly called Christ God, saying, "Of whom are the fathers, of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever" [Rom. 9:5]. He shows us also that the Son of God, who is the Word of God, is visible, because he who became flesh was called Christ. Of the Father, however, he says to Timothy, "Whom none among men has seen, nor indeed can see," and he accumulates the description in still ampler terms, "Who alone has immortality and dwells in the light that no one can approach" [1 Tim. 6:16]. It was of him, too, that he said in a previous passage, "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to the only God" [1 Tim. 1:17], so that we might apply the contrary qualities to the Son himself—mortality, accessibility—of whom the apostle testifies that "He died according to the Scriptures" [1 Cor. 15:3]and that "He was seen by himself last of all" [1 Cor. 15:8]. This happened, of course, by means of the light that was accessible, although it was not without imperiling his sight that he experienced that light [Acts 22:11] (Against Praxeas 15)
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,458
1,295
113
68
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Origen, c. AD 230
Since many saints participate in the Holy Spirit, he cannot therefore be understood to be a body, which being divided into corporeal parts, is partaken of by each one of the saints. Instead, he is manifestly a sanctifying power, in which all are said to have a share who have deserved to be sanctified by his grace. (De Principiis I:1:3)

The Holy Spirit is an intellectual existence and subsists and exists in a unique manner. (De Principiis I:1:3)

Hoving refuted, then, as well as we could, every notion which might suggest that we were to think of God as in any degree corporeal, we go on to say that, according to strict truth, God is incomprehensible and incapable of being measured. (De Principiis I:1:5)

God, therefore, is not to be thought of as being either a body or as existing in a body, but as an uncompounded intellectual nature. (De Principiis I:1:6)

Whatever … is a porperty of bodies cannot be said of either the Father or the Son, but what belongs to the nature of Deity is common to the Father and the Son. … Because, then, neither seeing nor being seen can be properly applied to an incorporeal and invisible nature, neither is the Father, in the Gospel, said to be seen by the Son nor the Son by the Father, but the One is said to be known by the Other. (De Principiis I:1:8)

By this divine sense, therefore, not of the eyes but of a pure heart, which is the mind, God may be seen by those who are worthy. For you will certainly find in all the Scriptures, both old and new, the term "heart" repeatedly used instead of "mind." (De Principiis I:1:9)

In the first place, we must note that the nature of that deity which is in Christ in respect to his being the only-begotten Son of God is one thing, and that human nature which he assumed in these last times for the purposes of the dispensation is another. (De Principiis I:2:1)
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,458
1,295
113
68
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Wisdom as a "She"
Both the Hebrew word for wisdom, chokmah, and the Greek word, sophia, are feminine nouns. That's meaningless to those of us who speak only English; however, in languages that give gender to nouns, writers have no choice but to refer to feminine nouns as "she" and "her."

This does not mean that they are thinking that the noun is actually female. For example, the German tasse means cup. It is feminine, so it appropriate to refer to the coffee cup in your hand as "she," while referring to the masculine coffee in the cup as "he."

It's funny to us English-speakers, but it's perfectly normal in languages with gender applied to nouns.

Therefore it is essential that we not be thrown off when Proverbs refers to Wisdom as "she." That does not necessarily mean that Wisdom is female. Origen here states clearly that the "Son" of God is the Wisdom of Proverbs, yet he refers to Wisdom as "she" nonetheless. That's because this is the proper thing to do in Greek grammar, not because he believes Wisdom or the Son of God is female.

For [the Son] is termed Wisdom according to the expression of Solomon: "The Lord created me the beginning of his ways and among his works before he made any other thing. He founded me before the ages" [Prov. 8:22-23]. … He is also styled Firstborn, as the apostle has declared, " … who is the firstborn of every creature" [Col. 1:15]. The Firstborn, however, is not by nature a different person from the Wisdom, but one and the same. Finally, the apostle Paul says that "Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God" [1 Cor. 1:24]. Let no one, however, imagine that we mean anything impersonal when we call him the Wisdom of God … If, then, it is once rightly understood that the only-begotten Son of God is his Wisdom existing in substance, I do not know whether our curiosity ought to advance beyond this. (De Principiis I:2:1-2)
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,458
1,295
113
68
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Who that is capable of entertaining reverential thoughts or feelings regarding God can suppose or believe that God the Father ever existed, even for a moment of time, without having generated this Wisdom? For in that case we must say either that God was unable to generate Wisdom before he produced her … or that he possessed the power indeed, but—what cannot be said of God without impiety—was unwilling to use it, both of which suppositions, it is obvious to all, are alike absurd and impious … Therefore we have always held that God is the Father of his only-begotten Son, who was born of him in truth and derives from him what he is, but without any beginning. (De Principiis I:2:2)

Since all the creative power of the coming creation was included in the very existence of Wisdom … having been formed beforehand and arranged by the power of foreknowledge—because of these very creatured which had been described (as it were) and prefigured in Wisdom herself, does Wisdom say, in the words of Solomon, that she was created the beginning of the ways of God, inasmuch as she contained within herself either the beginnings, or forms, or species of all creation. (De Principiis I:2:2)

John … says in the beginning of his Gospel, when defining God by a special definition to be the Word, "And God was the Word, and this was in the beginning with God" (Jn. 1:1). Let him, then, who assigns a beginning to the Word or Wisdom of God, take care not to be not guilty of impiety against the unbegotten Father himself, since he denies that he had always been a Father, had generated the Word, and had possessed wisdom in all preceding periods, whether they be called times or ages. (De Principiis I:2:3)

Whatever … we have said of the Wisdom of God will be appropriately applied to and understood of the Son of God because he is the Life, the Word, theTruth, and the Resurrection. For all these titles are derived from his power and operations, and in none of them is there the slightest ground for understanding anything of a corporeal nature which might seem to denote size, from, or color. (De Principiis I:2:4)

It is monstrous and unlawful to compare God the Father, in the generation of his only-begotten Son, … to any man or other living thing engaged in such an act. For we must of necessity hold that there is something exceptional and worthy of God which does not admit of any comparison at all, not merely in things, but which cannot even be conceived by human thought or discovered by perception. Thus, do not imagine that a human mind would be able to comprehend how the unbegotten God is made the Father of the only-begotten Son because his generation is as eternal and everlasting as the brilliancy which is produced from the sun. (De Principiis I:2:4)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.