Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

[DavidB]

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"Other" is often understood when the NT text reads "all" or "every." Even this verse, which trinitarians like so much, is translated with "other" in the following trinitarian Bibles: CEV; ERV; GW; ICB; TLB; NOG; NCB; NCV; NLV; NLT; NRSV(UE) updated edition of NRSV - 2021; AT (Goodspeed); JB; NJB; Beck and C.B. Williams. With a little effort you can find many more similar examples.

Thanks. I learned something today.

 

[DavidB]

YOu do not even know the Word of God!

Jesus died and physically rose to pay for all mankinds sin. But if you bothered to read teh rest of the call- One has to accept His death and physical resurrection in order to have that payment applied to their account!

And we physically dioe- because We are born with a sin nature and so inherit death from Adam!

Please show me where it says we need to not just believe he was resurrected, but was resurrected bodily.

 

[Robert Gwin]

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Continued From No.703

FAQ: According to John 20:19 and John 20:26, Jesus was able to pass his
body through solid objects. How did he to do that?

REPLY: According to the Watchtower Society, that body wasn't actually
Jesus' crucified body. It was a so-called materialized body, i.e. a
supernatural avatar that Michael the archangel could construct and
deconstruct at will. In other words; in order to pass thru solid objects,
Michael reverted to his spirit form and on the other side, switched back to
the avatar.

Now: the Society's theory seriously questions the integrity of one of God's
holiest and most trusted angels because during the entire 40 days following
the resurrection, their Michael led his followers to believe his avatar was
Jesus' crucified body restored to life.

That, in my opinion, would be an unforgivable hoax because Jesus' followers
believed in him. To even suggest that Michael would pull that kind of wool
over their eyes is just downright outrageous coming from someone
acclaimed to be the truth. (John 1:17 & John 14:6)

* It disappoints me when folks professing to believe in miracles refuse to
accept that Christ was enabled to alter the structure of solid objects enough
to allow himself to pass thru unscathed. His passing thru solid objects is
actually easier to believe in our day than back then because we today have a
much better understanding of physical materials. It turns out that solid
objects aren't as solid as once believed. They consist of minute atomic
particles that, in the quantum sphere, have quite a bit of space separating
them one from another; and those particles are not inseparable.

• John 1:3 . . All things came into existence through him, and apart from him
not even one thing came into existence.

Now the way I figure it: if the one who put this cosmos together was able to
do such a thing -- all its forms of life, matter, and energy --then it couldn't
be all that difficult for him to break it down, disassemble portions of it, and
then put it all back together again the way it was. Walking thru solid objects
would be child's play for someone wielding that kind of control over the laws
of nature.
_

No sir, that is not what we teach, we teach Jesus materialized after in the room. And like you did say we do teach when he appeared bodily, as do all angels that has interacted with man, it was not the body he gave in our behalf.

With the exception of Jesus himself, everything created came through his hands sir. Like your verse says, apart from him, nothing came into existence. Jehovah's creations beyond Jesus was actually for Jesus Col 1:16

 

[Robert Gwin]

The Bible doesn't say to celebrate Jesus's birth and resurrection but so what? God gives us free choice to celebrate or not, and JW's have chosen not to, so calling Christmas and Easter "pagan" makes them candidates for the naughty step.
Anyway there's a raft of other things that JW's avoid such as crosses and crucifixes, tut-tut..
"The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God" (1 Corinthians 1:18)

Yes sir, you will not see religious symbols among us. Although Jesus' death released us from the law, graven images are still part of God's law for Christians Drop.

 

[Robert Gwin]

You can’t answer a question with a question. The question to you was, Just how was Thomas satisfied with Jesus being physically resurrection, sir?

Jesus showed him the marks in his hands, which convinced Thomas of his resurrection, of course it was not the sacrificed body, he didn't even know who Jesus was until he showed him the marks. I don't think Jesus was ever recognized physically, so logically he never appeared in the same body twice, although appearing to his disciples multiple times.

The Bible stated he was raised a spirit, that is what I believe. There are no human bodies in heaven, as flesh and blood cannot go there, why do you think upon Jesus' return the remainder of the annointed will be changed sir? 1 Cor 15:52

 

[Robert Gwin]

No He was not- He was a bondslave and witness to Jesus! And as He was told from heaven, He exalted teh name of Jesus above every name!!! Not every other name like the New Word Mistranslation falsely writes.

Which God do you say he worshipped Ron? I say he worshipped the God Jesus worshipped obviously, you do believe he was one of Christ's disciples correct?

 

[Robert Gwin]

My meaning is simple. God needs no redeemer, But Yahweh the Father, the King of Israel, sent Yahweh of Hosts to be His redeemer for Israel! and the world! The father needs no redemption but Jesus is His redeemer in that the Father sent the Son.

Example. If I sent my son to the store to redeem all teh deposit bottles I saved up- He is my redeemer because I sent him to redeem the bottles on my behalf.

I agree with you example, and fully understand it, a fitting illustration Ron, and very true God did send His son, not Himself, He sent Yeshua, not Yahweh, Jehovah sent, He did not come, Yeshua never is referred to as Yahweh ever.

 

[Wrangler]

The Bible stated he was raised a spirit, that is what I believe.

The Bible does NOT state that he was raised a Spirit but raised IN the Spirit. In other words, the plan of reconciling people to God was initiated at this point, by this means, through this person who lead. The Bible calls it first fruits, which obviously implies the first in a series of like.

Your reply to Thomas is steeped in rationalization. No evidence of physical resurrection will alter your understanding.

Good day.

 

[DavidB]

The Bible does NOT state that he was raised a Spirit but raised IN the Spirit. In other words, the plan of reconciling people to God was initiated at this point, by this means, through this person who lead. The Bible calls it first fruits, which obviously implies the first in a series of like.

Your reply to Thomas is steeped in rationalization. No evidence of physical resurrection will alter your understanding.

Good day.

Jesus is the first fruits of the resurrection described at 1 Corinthians 15. His resurrection was the first one to be “sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body.” (Vs 44)
Others who follow Jesus in this resurrection don’t just disappear because they took their bodies to heaven. We bury their physical bodies.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

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"Other" is often understood when the NT text reads "all" or "every." Even this verse, which trinitarians like so much, is translated with "other" in the following trinitarian Bibles: CEV; ERV; GW; ICB; TLB; NOG; NCB; NCV; NLV; NLT; NRSV(UE) updated edition of NRSV - 2021; AT (Goodspeed); JB; NJB; Beck and C.B. Williams. With a little effort you can find many more similar examples.

no it is not! other is its own word "allos" and would appear and not implied.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

All of these are either paraphrases or what is known as dynamic translations. A dynamic translation is a subjective thought for thought "translation" which makes it subjective to the whims of the "translator". They are not grammatic translations, nor literal tranlsations. They are barely better than paraphrases.

Also some of these, even the construct of the passage shows Jesus name is above all names. With the modifiers of "every" or "all" before other- that is to be understood as every name, no excpetions unless an exception is denoted. Sorry but your reasoning is wrong.

 

[Webers_Home]

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Continued From No.703

I don't think Jesus was ever recognized physically,

It's not uncommon to walk right past a familiar face without recognizing
them when they show up in places least expected. In point of fact, none of
Jesus' closest friends ever expected to see him again; for example:

A good friend passed away some years ago. Every so often I run across men
strongly resembling my friend and I have to remind myself he's deceased so
I don't get fooled in a case of mistaken identity.

Something else: Jesus' body was very nearly stripped naked. The clothing
that his friends were accustomed to seeing him with was taken by soldiers.
I'm curious to know about his resurrection clothing because there have been
times when I've encountered co-workers in public and not recognized them
right away because the only clothing I've ever seen them with was work
clothes.

In every incident of a resurrection throughout the Bible it pertains to
somebody's physical body. It's very difficult for me to even so much as even
consider that Jesus' experience would be any different.

And then there's this:

• John 2:19-22 . . Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it
up. Therefore the Jews said: This temple was built in forty-six years, and will
you raise it up in three days? But he was talking about the temple of his
body. When, though, he was raised up from the dead, his disciples called to
mind that he used to say this

"this temple" and "his body" of course refer to Jesus' physical existence. It
certainly wasn't Michael the archangel's spirit existence because that
would've been already dead 30+ years earlier so that Michael's life force
could be transferred to Mary's baby.

* David anticipated Jesus' physical body restored to life. (Acts 2:23-36)
_

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Please show me where it says we need to not just believe he was resurrected, but was resurrected bodily.

The word itself! I know the Watchtower in their teachings have redefined the word resurrection, but their reasonings are a lie.

REsurrection as it is understood and was understood is a physical rising from teh dead.

Teh words themselves show that

Lexicon :: Strong's G386 - anastasis
Transliteration
anastasis ἀνίστημι (G450)
Greek Inflections of ἀνάστασις ἀναστάσει — 7x
ἀναστάσεώς — 1x
ἀναστάσεως — 16x
ἀνάστασιν — 12x
ἀνάστασις — 6x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: resurrection (39x), rising again (1x), that should rise (1x), raised to life again (with G1537) (1x).

Strong’s Definitions G450; a standing up again, i.e. (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, genitive case or by implication, (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth):—raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the dead, that should rise, rising again.

This word comes from two Greek words. ana= again stasis = standing. So it is a standing AGAIN. In order for someone to be resurrected according to eh word itself, what was laid down has to be stood up again!

egeirō (Key)

The KJV translates Strong's G1453 in the following manner: rise (36x), raise (28x), arise (27x), raise up (23x), rise up (8x), rise again (5x), raise again (4x), miscellaneous (10x).
Outline of Biblical Usage G58 (through the idea of collecting one's faculties); to waken (transitively or intransitively), i.e. rouse (literally, from sleep, from sitting or lying, from disease, from death; or figuratively, from obscurity, inactivity, ruins, nonexistence):—awake, lift (up), raise (again, up), rear up, (a-)rise (again, up), stand, take up.


these are teh exact same words to describe Lazarus rising from the dead and the resurrection of all souls at the end.

It was understood by all this was a physical resurrection. Even the bible says Jesus would not see corruption but be raised.! The watchtower has to create a story of "God destroying the body of Jesus and that Jesus manufactured bodies as needed to prove He was risen from the dead." That is not found in the bible.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It's not uncommon to walk right past a familiar face without recognizing
them when they show up in places least expected. In point of fact, none of
Jesus' closest friends ever expected to see him again; for example:

What JW's have been taught is to ignore that Jesus was cloaked in the garden and that the two people on the road to Emmaus were "kept" from recognizing them,. IOW God gave them some sense of unrecognition of Jesus until the breaking of bread.

 

[Webers_Home]

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Continued From No.732

According to Dan 7:13-14 & Heb 1:5-8, the world to come will be ruled by a
man.

Well; that presents a bit of a difficulty for the Watchtower Society because in
order for their version of Michael the archangel to rule the world as a man, he
will have to die all over again so that his life force can be re-installed in Jesus'
corpse.

I don't know: maybe the Society has a work-around for that one but I've yet
to discover it.
_

 

[marks]

May I ask you Marks to define what Christian is sir?

Why, will you change your mind? Seems to me you flatly reject key teachings of the Bible. So why would we do this? You asked a question in your OP. I've given you a Scritpural answer. Do you reject that answer?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Michael is the highest created spirit being Marks. No one is higher in rank other than God sir, having the exclusive distinction of the title Archangel. He is the one Jehovah has delegated authority to, to finish off sin. He has already led the battle against satan and the demons, casting them from heaven Rev 12:7-9 thus the New Heavens are instituted, soon he will remove satan and all those who follow him from the earth 2 Thes 1:6-9

Regardless of your various reasonings, the Bible identifies Jesus Christ, and Not Michael.

Much love!

 

[marks]

He did that for Thomas, because he needed it to believe Jesus had been truly resurrected. Truth be told, although among some of his other apostles at the time, did you notice how no one recognized him physically? No sir, Jesus truly gave his flesh and blood in our behalf, as he said he would. No offering to God put on the alter is ever recorded as being taken back.

So now you accuse the Son of God of lies.

What more is needed to be said?

Much love!

 

[marks]

What IS "resurrection"?

What would it mean, "spiritual resurrection"?

Do we believe the spirit lives on after death of the body? Not all do. So if the spirit came back after death of body/spirit, that would be "spiritual resurrection", right?

But if we're not talking about "spirit death", then . . . What is resurrection?

Much love!

 

[marks]

We just need to pay attention to the details.

False religions ignore details.

Luke 24:13-16 KJV
13) And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
14) And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
15) And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16) But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.

Why didn't they know who Jesus was? What does the Bible say?

That they didn't recognize Jesus because Jesus was different? No, that's not what it says. God tells us why. Their eyes were holden. That's why.

So now . . . one can either accept that this is true, and that was why, or persist in a lie against the Bible, which is really against God.

Much love!