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Are the US and Israel in a covert war in Iran?

Discussion in 'Current Events & Politics Forum' started by aspen, Dec 8, 2011.

  1. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Bombs have been exploding in Iran

    Our drone was shot down

    Are we trying to provoke a war?
     
  2. Shirley

    Shirley New Member

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    They have been mentally preparing us for war with Iran for years. IMO Where did you hear the drone was shot down?
     
  3. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Iran displayed it today on Iranian TV - they claimed that they are going to give it to the Chinese
     
  4. rjp34652@yahoo.com

    [email protected] Choir Loft

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    I believe the proper term for what is going on is SHADOW WAR.

    By definition a shadow war is not covert. Everybody knows whats going on, but neither it is outright gloves off, bare knuckle fighting.

    The players in the conflict are;
    the allied powers of UK, US & Israel
    vs.
    Iran, possibly Syria, possibly Turkey**, possibly Russia, possibly China.

    Recent events in the shadow war include;
    1. Mysterious assassinations this past year of a large number of Iranian nuclear scientists.
    Isreal is suspect.

    2. Mysterious 'accidental' blasts at Iranian nuclear facilities. Iran claims they were transporting volatile chemicals unsafely, but satellite images of the damage indicate specific buildings were destroyed.

    3. UK sponsored survelliance and sabotage has been going on for twenty years. Described to me by a Brit as very "James Bond" in nature.

    4. In October, Iranian agents were arrested under suspicion of a plot to kill the Saudi ambassador. Iran denies the plot, the news of which was coincidentally released on the same day that Attorney General Eric Holder was subpoenaed to appear before a congressional investigations committe concerning his lies about involvement in Operation Fast and Furious. It is unknown whether the plot was true, whether it was a smokescreen to cover Holder's criminal activity, or whether it was another false flag to justify antagonism toward Iran, or all the above.

    5. November - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, president of Iran promises to launch 150,000 missles at Israel should Iran be attacked.

    6. Dec 4th - mysterious blasts at UK embassy. UK has withdrawn their embassy staff from Tehran. It is suspected that the blast wasn't Iranian but British, thus giving them an excuse to leave town. (Why?) The suspicion is as yet unproven.

    7. A high tech drone spy plane falls into the hands of the Iranian military. Observers at Tehran airport have witnessed the arrival of many foreign "visitors" in the past few days (Russian, Chinese, etc.). Spare robotic parts on Ebay soon?

    8. uS military is drawing forces out of Iraq VERY quickly. Not known is the level and speed of troop withdrawal from other areas. The reasons given are to promote democracy in Iraq, to hand over power to the locals and to come home for the holidays. In actuality, American military combat readiness is at alarmingly low levels. Every military person I've privately interviewed have told horror stories of American combat inadequacy; in morale, in equipment and in training.

    If the oligarchs decide to send American troops into battle with Iran, there might not be a favorable outcome.

    My personal fear is another government sponsored terrorist attack like the inside job of 9/11 the purpose of which would be to "inspire" America to fight Iran. Our government needs another great lie to justify another great war.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The tally of concurrent uS wars as of this date is 11:
    Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen*, Somalia*, Uganda, Congo, Central African Republic, Sudan, Iran* & War on Terror(d*)

    (*) shadow wars
    (d*) domestic shadow war by uS government upon its own citizens (see S.1867 National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 Sponsored by: Senator Carl Levin (D-MI) & Senator John McCain (R - AZ))
    (**) Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prime minister of Turkey and western sympathizer, survived an attempted coup d'etat this past spring organized by journalists and high members of the military. Much sympathy for Iran remains in the country despite their religious differences (shiite vs. shia). Many Turks wish for a return to the glory days of the Ottoman Empire, which ended in 1927. Turkey is the best candidate for Islamic leadership in the region. It's also the only European nation to have its credit rating INCREASE this year.
     
  5. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    Of course not.

    If they were trying to provoke a war they would have sent in troops to retrive the drone or bombed the place where Iran was displaying it.
    They would have used 'national security' as the reason the technology can't be allowed to "fall into Iranian hands."
    That obviously isn't happening.

    If the U.S. wanted a war with Iran, they could have used the multiple instances in Iraq where fighters from Iran were captured along with Iranian weapons and munitions.

    If Israel 'wanted a war' they would be overt about assassinations in Iran (if it is indeed them) or they would flat out do what they (rightfully) did in Iraq and launch bombing raids on Irainian nuclear facilities.

    - Iran has violated multiple UN resolutions
    - Iran has lied stating they weren't trying to gain nukes, but now brags they will have them soon
    - Iran gives veiled threats like stating soon that Israel will be wiped from the face of the earth
    - Iran is financing Syrian efforts against Israel

    If anyone is trying to provoke a war......
     
  6. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Seriously? Look, I usually balk at conspiracy theories, but it has be proven that Israel bombed Iraq throughout the first Iraq war, while collecting the money we paid them not to bomb them. It was never overt. We are bombing Pakistan and until today, they have not retaliated. Covert wars happen all the time.
     
  7. us2are1

    us2are1 Son Of Man

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    This is funny. The Chinese made all of the components anyway. They won't learn anything.

    The U.S. can now conduct a full fledged war with drones and never leave their Ships out at sea. Nukes to.
     
  8. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    lol, no.

    But hey, here's your big chance to prove me wrong.
    Post the "proof" here.

    Somehow I doubt you will.
     
  9. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    "it has been proven" that Aspen is again making up "facts."
     
  10. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Apparently, I am going to have to revise my statement about Israel bombing Iraq during the Gulf War - my source was a conspiracy theory. Of course, Israel did bomb Iraq's nuclear reactor in 1981 without declaring war so I was 10 years off.

    As much as Foreign likes to try and catch me telling egregious lies - purposely trying to mislead everyone while simply looking like a fool - the point I was trying to make is that countries attack other countries without declaring war often.
     
  11. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    The USA accounts for approximately 4.6% of the worlds population using 2008 figures.

    The Middle East as a whole accounts for 3.3% of the worlds population using 2008 figures.

    We have had two drones crash in recent months and a number of kills made by drone.

    The ethics of this kind of warfare is doing our reputation no good at all in this world.

    It is making many non Middle Eastern nations protest what we are doing in the Mid East even more than they had been.

    I believe that Babylon the Great in Revelation is the world-wide empire of false religion but I have to admit that those who claim it is the United States as represented by the Statue of Liberty to be the great woman of freedom in the world make some pretty convincing arguments. And I know the Muslims say that the US is that Babylon.

    I have to get back into Revelation and review my knowledge of it again because this sure does not look good.

    And when one considers that the US really has no nationality that it can call its own as it is made of a mix of all nations?

    The world would not be loosing any nationality as a whole race of people by treating the US as that Babylon.

    Many are saying that the nations of the world are going to turn on us jointly and burn us with fire, perhaps even with nuclear attack.

    And it does say to get out of her if you do not want to suffer her plagues.

    Let me out of here. :(

    Thinking about moving to Europe or South America. :unsure:
     
  12. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    I feel the same way sometimes, Vengle.
     
  13. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    -- True. And their action prevent Saddam from having 10 uninterrupted years of developing a bomb - his stated goal.
    But even if he hadn't stated it, his repeated threats against Israel (like Iran is making today) were a good indicator.

    The fact that Iraq is one of the most oil-rich nations in the world and had no need for nuclear power was another dead giveaway.

    After 10 years, Iran would have likely been a target. And it would have been a threat against coalition forces after he invaded Kuwait. And Israel would have likely been a target if the forces would have invaded anyway. The unprovoked SCUD missle attacks against Israel is supporting proof.
    Only those with a lack of historical understanding could possibly say Israel was wrong.

    Oh, and as a side note, Israel scheduled the attack to ensure minimum loss of life. A couple of janitors and a French scientist (who was helping Iraq but wasn't supposed to be working that day) were killed. The French pitched a fit until it was pointed out by the UN that, according to an agreement France had signed, they weren't supposed to be helping Saddam with a nuclear program anyway.

    CNN and AP were two of multiple sources that said that attack was actually welcomed by all of Saddam's neighbors and likely saved scores of lives that a madman with a nuke would have likely taken a few years down the road.
    Apparently Israel did indeed do everyone a favor.




    -- What can I say. You successfully do something a number of times and it does indeed become fun.

    Saying I look like a fool kind of flies in the face of criticizing me for saying someone else does in another thread.
    Guess it is okay for Aspen to criticize the practice in others, but still do it himself.
    There's a word for that isn't there?

    As far as countries attacking other countries without warning:

    - Saddam (you know, the guy with the nuclear plant) did that to Iran. Full invasion. Or is that fact too inconvenient for you?
    Kind of hard for him to then scream if someone else does it to him, no?
    Especially when it was one attack, defensive in nature, and was not followed by an invasion.

    - The U.S, NATO, and the UN have all showed that Iran, for several years, provided soldiers, weapons, explosives, and money and had a physical presence in Iraq during the time the U.S. and coalition forces were there.
    Their action are documented to have cost the US a number of military personnel.

    The UN has also pointed out that Iran was helping Syria with the nuclear program (technicians, materials, money) that Syria promised they did not have....right up until the time Israel took that one out, as well.

    Please note that the UN did not call for sanctions against Israel for doing so, and they are famous for doing that against Israel at the drop of a hat.

    No declaration.

    So, let's recap, shall we?

    A nation that has said that Israel should be wiped off the face of the earh, has been conducting a multi-year, ongoing, covert military "war" in Iraq, and who had been helping Syria with their illegal nuclear program...

    ...is currently the 'victim' of an unsubstantiated covert 'war' by the United States.

    ...........uh huh
     
  14. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Israel bombed Iraq without declaring war.


    I never said a word about any country being a victim. Also, I never called you a fool - you need to re-read my statement. The fact is, Israel bombed Irag without declaring war - it doesn't matter what statements Irag has made against Israel.

    It sure is amusing to watch you pile on tons of liberal intention behind my words - you really are creative with straw....
     
  15. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    -- Yup. And likely saved thousands if not hundreds of thousands of lives.
    Many thousands of those lives would have been in the very country now calling for the destruction of Israel.

    And no, the U.S. and Israel have not launched a 'covert war' on Iran.
    Iran, however has done so against the US and others in Iraq with personnel, money, weapons, and explosives, so if the US and Israel (the country in Iran's crosshairs) were to return the favor, it would be more than justified.
     
  16. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    I accept your apology.
     
  17. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    From what I understand, the drone was not shot down. The question swirls around whether it was a malfunction or very smart hack job with each side maintaining one way or the other. I don't know that we'll even know the answer, but I could see a hack job and I could see a malfunction since this is a newer model drone. From what I understand, and following the crash of another type of drone in the Seychelles, drones aren't exactly foolproof and most crashes - which amount to ~50ish reported incidents in the last year (note the word reported) - suggest the kinks aren't worked out. In fact, it seems like these things are more likely to crash due to a malfunction than to actually be shot down. (However, I've always wondered about the linkup with a drone and how you could jam signals, etc.)

    Are we fighting a covert war with Iran right now? Nah. Spies have been around since the beginning of time, and it's not exactly an act of war like it used to be. I don't like drone warfare, but you can rest assured that had these others invented them, the case would be the same in reverse.

    However, there are the beginnings of a covert war in Syria.
     
  18. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Yeah, Syria is definitely on the radar
     
  19. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    -- Ah, so THAT'S how it works.

    Whenever you are proven wrong, you just say you accepted the OTHER PERSON'S apology.

    Got it now, thanks.
     
  20. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    LOL I think you got that backwards.
     
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